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Thread: spartan hoplites

  1. #1

    Default spartan hoplites

    Why spartans are so weak? Yeah the bodyguards are good, but the there is no elite hoplites only bodyguards... So basically any greek faction can have better hoplites with 3lvl barracks.

  2. #2

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    basically weakest greek roster, no cav, no ranged, and no elite infantry

  3. #3
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    They are not weak, they are better than any other hoplite due to hidden speed and HP buff.

    You are missing that Sparta was extremly weak at campaign start, their army was low in number, they dropped agoge and their militay training and were not even close to their old glory, they were subpar military wise to other Greeks. They only bounced back by second half of III century, which their reforms reflect.

    This makes them both gameplay and historically more interesting as your goal is to rebuilt Sparta to proper power level.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; May 01, 2021 at 06:12 PM.
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  4. #4
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    You should wrote a FAQ why Sparta didn't kill whole armies with 300 hoplites in 272 BC anymore.
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  5. #5
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Side note, interesting trivia why 300 and Spartan run together, this is not just made up number or number that Spartan rolled at Thermophylae. This is actual number of personal king bodyguard, hence why Leonidas had only 300 with him.
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  6. #6
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    I' m sure, that the number was set by law. In other poleis a huge number of bodyguards was the path to tyranny (Peisistratos).
    And when your sleep is haunted in the night
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  7. #7

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    They are not weak, they are better than any other hoplite due to hidden speed and HP buff.

    You are missing that Sparta was extremly weak at campaign start, their army was low in number, they dropped agoge and their militay training and were not even close to their old glory, they were subpar military wise to other Greeks. They only bounced back by second half of III century, which their reforms reflect.

    This makes them both gameplay and historically more interesting as your goal is to rebuilt Sparta to proper power level.
    Well didnt cheked hiden hp buff coz dei military academy is unavalible atm. But i tested even 2tier(first reform) spartans loose to any elite hoplites(athens, pergamon, mace, epiros and others).
    About weakness of real sparta in this period yes they were weak as faction. But hoplites remains the strongest anyways. They were bitten not coz they had weak hoplites, but coz they was not flexible enough to counter new meta in warfare... And of low pop of warriors society.
    And all in all its a game, and there should be ballance. In compare to any hellenic faction sparta is weakest for sure. No cav, no ranged and no elite infantry untill 120 turn and 5 imp lvl.
    For example if u compare it to pergamon that has very good hellenic cav(one of the best), elite hoplites that beats spartans and crazy peltasts that can fight in melle pretty decent. And after 120th turn reform, they got absolutely crazy peltasts, and very strong swords. And yeah pergamon wasnt so damn powerfull in this period and in any other to be honest in history.

  8. #8

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    They are not weak, they are better than any other hoplite due to hidden speed and HP buff.

    You are missing that Sparta was extremly weak at campaign start, their army was low in number, they dropped agoge and their militay training and were not even close to their old glory, they were subpar military wise to other Greeks. They only bounced back by second half of III century, which their reforms reflect.

    This makes them both gameplay and historically more interesting as your goal is to rebuilt Sparta to proper power level.
    Well didnt cheked hiden hp buff coz dei military academy is unavalible atm. But i tested even 2tier(first reform) spartans loose to any elite hoplites(athens, pergamon, mace, epiros and others).
    About weakness of real sparta in this period yes they were weak as faction. But hoplites remains the strongest anyways. They were bitten not coz they had weak hoplites, but coz they was not flexible enough to counter new meta in warfare... And of low pop of warriors society.
    And all in all its a game, and there should be ballance. In compare to any hellenic faction sparta is weakest for sure. No cav, no ranged and no elite infantry untill 120 turn and 5 imp lvl.
    For example if u compare it to pergamon that has very good hellenic cav(one of the best), elite hoplites that beats spartans and crazy peltasts that can fight in melle pretty decent. And after 120th turn reform, they got absolutely crazy peltasts, and very strong swords. And yeah pergamon wasnt so damn powerfull in this period and in any other to be honest in history.

  9. #9
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Well of course elite hoplites will beat Spartans.

    Spartan thing is that they are better than regular hoplites of other factions but they were no longer considered best hoplites. Once you hit final reform, they indeed become best, hence the reward for playing.
    Sparta was just a pale shadow and had to go through reforms, hence why they moved to pike phalanx and even freed some helots to also arm them in such manner. Our reforms reflect it. This is what makes playing as Sparta interesting in DeI as you start as true underdog.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Imo Spartans are just overated, their units were just well trained but had pretty bad logistics and all other stuff. They brought changes to army like peltasts and good cav much later then others like Athenians. Spartan units are not good but they are on drugs like the 300 Spartan hoplite can litterlaly run 4 times more then an average Greek hoplites and it is 3 for Spartan basic hoplites two for helot and those perioiki hoplites. Imo sparta is actually really good and well designed in dei which were just crap in vanilla

  11. #11

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Maybe is not better to remove the imperium for activate the first reform(only for Sparta)? Because Sparta never wanted to build a great empire and in game we can see this reform for a return of old glory and a new spartan imperialistic thinking

  12. #12

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    All it takes is getting to thureos reform to get Ionian lancers, reformed Spartan hoplites, guest hoplites, and helot pikes, all of which are great units in their own right; sparta also has perioikoi hoplites which are iirc a touch better than normal hoplites, skiritai swords as a great light infantry unit, better garrison units than other Greek factions, and a fantastic bodyguard unit. They’re honestly pretty damn great, I don’t know why you’d think they’re bad on the basis of the starting version of Spartan hoplites alone.

  13. #13

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    I never had any problem defeating any other hoplite type (or indeed any other infantry type I would encounter) with Spartan hoplites so long as I kept up with the reforms, and put points into +def and +atk when levelling my general. That being said I don't play on the hardest difficulties so I'm not sure how they would fare with that.

  14. #14

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Spartan hoplites should nto be better than any other greek hoplites. In reality they wore armor adn were not better than other Greek soldiers. Google: spartan myth. In fact Argos had best soldiers in Greece and later Theba.
    Spartans fought to the death only once - at Thermopilae but not alone, with them were over 2000 other Greek hoplites fighting till the end. Really superb unit of ancient Greece was Theban sacred band - those guys kicked Spartan arse even when outnumbered more than 3 to one.

  15. #15
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    I read somewhere that each Spartan hoplite had 7 Helot squires so maybe add this feature? And maybe make the generals have 300 men!

    Edit: Or at least the 2 kings!
    Last edited by Visarion; May 16, 2021 at 08:52 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Sparta generals already have 300 men in their unit.

  17. #17
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: spartan hoplites

    Yeah but there should be 300 Spartan Hoplites and 2100 Helots!

    Edit: Also those Periokoi or whatever are some of the ugliest in the game. Did you notice that? I mean give them some armour, a red cloak or smth.

    Edit: Again I must apologise, Spartans are pretty awesome, Pardon my irony I should have said naked and with a red cloak!


    Edit: Again sorry guys you are doing an awesome work, I had Textures and Units at Very High instead of Ultra.
    Last edited by Visarion; May 16, 2021 at 10:37 PM.

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