Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

[AnthoniusII]

PKK, a group that targeted civilian targets many times, is designated as a terror group both by EU and USA. Greece, of course, declined to designate PKK as a terror group, and PKK's leader got caught leaving a Greek embassy. YPG in Syria, which USA openly supports and supplies, is designated as PKK's Syrian branch by the US intelligence reports and many other official communications. That's the group we're talking about.

Other examples? ASALA, the Armenian terror organization that bombed a Turkish airlines flight waiting room and targeted many different Turkish diplomats throughout Europe. Participants in that bombing in Orly airport were welcomed as heroes in Armenia.

EOKA, the Greek Cypriot terror organization that often targeted civilians of Turkish and British ethnicity. Recently, Greek Cypriot government chose to commemorate them with a stamp in their honor.

You must becoem a politician you have what it takes, Politician is the one that speaks without saying ANYTHING. That is what are you are doing about my question. You wrote a bunch of examples but YOU AVOIDED to answer my question.
I repeat me question : IF IN 1921 Greeks conquered Angara (the father of Prince Philip of England was responsible for the Sangarius river defeat) , the armed groups pf Turks fighting querilla tactics to make Greeks go away would be TERRORISTS OR FREEDOM FIGHTERS?
CAN YOU ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION PLEASE?

[Drtad]

A brave act by President Biden, it's a good first step. The Assyrian and Pontic Greek genocides must also be acknowledged and the security of the countries (as well as the NKR) at risk of future Turkish aggression should be guaranteed by more concrete steps.

As you guys are trying to teach a lesson in "humanity" to Turkey, a crowd in Yerevan, Armenia is cheering as they symbolically hang a figure draped in Azerbaijani flag.

That's rich. In the video you can even see the street sign "La Cienega Boulevard," which is in Los Angeles... Such a thing has not happened in Yerevan.

[PointOfViewGun]

That's rich. In the video you can even see the street sign "La Cienega Boulevard," which is in Los Angeles... Such a thing has not happened in Yerevan.

Oh, sorry. It was not being done by Armenians in Armenia but done by Armenians in Los Angeles. What's richer? Me providing incorrect location for this or you only talking about that? Disgusting.

You must becoem a politician you have what it takes, Politician is the one that speaks without saying ANYTHING. That is what are you are doing about my question. You wrote a bunch of examples but YOU AVOIDED to answer my question.
I repeat me question : IF IN 1921 Greeks conquered Angara (the father of Prince Philip of England was responsible for the Sangarius river defeat) , the armed groups pf Turks fighting querilla tactics to make Greeks go away would be TERRORISTS OR FREEDOM FIGHTERS?
CAN YOU ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION PLEASE?

You asked me to define terror groups and I have done just that. You are the one avoiding the real issue here. That is because you have no merit on the actual issues so you try to waste time by talking about hypotheticals.

[Sir Adrian]

As you guys are trying to teach a lesson in "humanity" to Turkey, a crowd in Yerevan, Armenia Los Angeles is cheering as they symbolically hang a figure draped in Azerbaijani flag.

Ok guys, there was no genocide because a bunch of armenians IN LOS ANGELES burned an azeri flag last year when there was a war going on between the 2 countries. /s

This is textbook whataboutism.

[PointOfViewGun]

I love how people get all analytical when other episodes of history is mentioned. Scorched earth policy of Greeks as they burned and massacred towns while they retreated from the Turkish armies? Just a military maneuver. USA campaigns to massacre Native Americans through out modern USA? Just an outcome of diseases.

Ok guys, there was no genocide because a bunch of armenians IN LOS ANGELES burned an azeri flag last year when there was a war going on between the 2 countries. /s
This is textbook whataboutism.

The video is from today. Posted originally by the Armenian Youth Federation. The person speaking in the video is declaring that Eastern Turkey is occupied Western Armenia. You seriously need better reality checks.

The latter is not genocide. The former is too broad. Were you bracket that to the post ACW period where the US was undisputed master of the territory it claimed, and faced no external enemies that might seek to use the First Nations west of the Mississippi against it. Adding a corollary that the nature of war between nations no longer found 30 years war style brutality acceptable or normal when carried out between 'European' or modern states - than I fine with say the US carried out a genocide. But agreeing to that does not mean I can see one elsewhere as well.

Simple question: were Indian Removal campaigns genocides? Or Cherokee removal more specifically? As it was an example of forced relocation.

[Nebaki]

But agreeing to that does not mean I can see one elsewhere as well.

You wrote like as somebody cares really about the victims or the truth - but you are wrong here. For example what will happen if you say that the archives of an occupied country have been turned upside down and nothing has been found in the courts to be evidence of the Armenian massacre? During the early period of Turkish Republic it was decided to pay a compensation to the Armenians who proved their displacement in return for their properties. It was the US Government of 1943 if I´m not mistaked who denied this proposal with the reply of "No one to pay compensation, don't send" so after all this what has changed now in 2021?

I cannot even blame here current Turkish Government since the West and this time especially the USA under Biden is not willing to have real Solution in this case.

[PointOfViewGun]

Before anyone ventures further here is the official Turkish version of what happened from the Turkish foreign ministry's own website:
The Events of 1915 and the Turkish-Armenian Controversy over History: An Overview

In response, the Ottoman Government ordered in 1915 the Armenian population residing in or near the war zone to be relocated to the southern Ottoman provinces away from the supply routes and army transport lines on the way of the advancing Russian army. Some Armenians living away from the front, yet were reported or suspected to be involved in collaboration, were also included in mandatory transfer.

Ottoman Government took a number of measures for safe transfer during the relocation. However, under war-time conditions exacerbated by internal strife, local groups seeking revenge, banditry, famine, epidemics, and a failing state apparatus (including unruly officials who were court-martialed and sentenced to capital punishment by the Ottoman Government in 1916, much before the end of the War) all combined to produce what became a tragedy. Nevertheless, no authentic evidence exists to support the claim that there was a premeditated plan by the Ottoman Government to kill off Armenians. Moreover, the Ottoman socio-cultural fabric did not harbor racist attitudes that would facilitate such a horrific crime. Loss of life, regardless of numbers and regardless of possible guilt on the part of the victims, is tragic and must be remembered. However, it is factually problematic, morally unsound and legally unfounded to call this episode a “genocide.”

The Armenian Allegation of Genocide: The issue and the facts

Figures reporting the total pre-World War I Armenian population vary widely, with Armenian sources claiming far more than others. British, French and Ottoman sources give figures of 1.05-1.50 million. Only certain Armenian sources claim a pre-war population larger than 1.5 million. Comparing these to post-war figures yields a rough estimate of losses. Historian and demographer, Dr. Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville, calculates the actual losses as slightly less than 600,000. This figure agrees with those provided by British historian Arnold Toynbee, by most early editions of the Encyclopedia Britannica, and approximates the number given by Monseigneur Touchet, a French missionary, who informed the Oeuvre d'Orient in February 1916 that the number of dead is thought to be 500,000. Boghos Nubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in 1920, noted the large numbers who survived the war. He declared that after the war 280,000 Armenians remained in the Anatolian portion of the occupied Ottoman Empire while 700,000 Armenians had emigrated to other countries.

[Nebaki]

And whats the difference between Armenian relocations and forceful removal of American Natives?

The ones are friends of so-called non-native Americans while others are not even close to the first letter of [f]riend.

[Vanoi]

Travesty of facts, not facts alone.




And whats the difference between Armenian relocations and forceful removal of American Natives?

Do you think i haven't read about the Armenian genocide? Your leaving out the mass murder. Like when the Ottomans marched upwards to a million Armenians to the Syrian desert to be placed in concentration camps and systemically massacred.

If you want to compare the Indian Removal Act to that of the Armenian genocide we definitely can. Not going to be a fair comparison considering what the Ottomans did, but we definitely can.

[PointOfViewGun]

Do you think i haven't read about the Armenian genocide? Your leaving out the mass murder. Like when the Ottomans marched upwards to a million Armenians to the Syrian desert to be placed in concentration camps and systemically massacred.

If you want to compare the Indian Removal Act to that of the Armenian genocide we definitely can. Not going to be a fair comparison considering what the Ottomans did, but we definitely can.

I am confident you have read extensively on a lot of biased sources or outright falsehoods, hence the description you're propagating. There were no death camps to kill Armenians. If there were the Armenians wouldn't need to forge documents to create their existence.



USA's consul was collecting money to give money to Armenians that were being massacred on spot? It's an absurd suggestion. We speak of a Lebanese and Syrian Armenian communities today because of these relocations. It was an abysmal effort to relocate Armenians but no, Armenians were not being sent to camps to get gased.

[Gaius Baltar]

This probably won't significantly hurt American-Turkish relations. They're already bad and this won't make things significantly worse. This does signal that for at least these next four years American-Turkish relations will be cold at best.

Turkeys role as the southern anchor for NATO would seem to be more and more unstable. The USSR was a real threat back in the 60s and 70s. Today Russia just does not have the capability or the need to carry out any major operations oriented towards Turkey, the Caucuses or the Middle East. Sure, maybe a small defensive operation like we have seen in Georgia and Crimea, but there is no way they could sustain a major offensive surge into the area. All of their resources are targeted at eastern Europe right now I that is probably more than they can chew anyway.

The real question is will Turkey support NATO when conflict arises with Russia in the Baltic and Ukraine? Somehow I see them sitting it out. There is nothing to be gained and much to lose, and their regional interests will take a priority anyway with the nagging problem of the Kurds and the remaining Christian populations.

A failing EU and a NATO setback in the Baltic could persuade the Turks to leave NATO and search for greener pastures.

[Abdülmecid I]

A bunch of posts got deleted. Please respect the topic of the thread, which is the recognition of the Armenian genocide by President Biden and not Greek air-space nor India under British rule nor Byzantine churches.

[Nebaki]

Turkeys role as the southern anchor for NATO would seem to be more and more unstable.

Oh you didn´t answer to my Questions - skipping them - and of course making such weak claims.

Today Russia just does not have the capability or the need to carry out any major operations oriented towards Turkey, the Caucuses or the Middle East. Sure, maybe a small defensive operation like we have seen in Georgia and Crimea, but there is no way they could sustain a major offensive surge into the area. All of their resources are targeted at eastern Europe right now I that is probably more than they can chew anyway.

You are here totally wrong. Todays Turkey neither Iran even if they came under a Alliance would have the real capabilities to stop Russia - sure it will be a little hardy and very costy for Russia but they still have these capabilities. Russia is today in the middle of NKR without even firing a Bullet and now Syria is official a Land Border between Turkey and Russia.

One Week ago even Russia had enough military material concentrated to occupy Ukraine aswell Romania, probably only Poland and Germany has real Military Strength to even stop a Russian Invasion in Europe or even atleast to hold it up. We should aswell not forget the Russians in the Libyan Theatre.

The real question is will Turkey support NATO when conflict arises with Russia in the Baltic and Ukraine? Somehow I see them sitting it out. There is nothing to be gained and much to lose, and their regional interests will take a priority anyway with the nagging problem of the Kurds and the remaining Christian populations.

Turkey is already supporting Ukraine but comments like "problem of the Kurds and the remaining Christian populations" already shows implying even with Opening this Thread.

A failing EU and a NATO setback in the Baltic could persuade the Turks to leave NATO and search for greener pastures.

You mean a EU that is ignoring any real threats around him and a NATO with Members like Greece which are warmongering against Turkey while having a big guy like USA in that Alliance that still tries to crumple your economy and is pissed why you are not getting Missile Defense Systems from him while rejecting your inquiries of purchase from it?


But Thank you @Gaius Baltar you showed now your real intentions so in that matter @alhoon @Abdülmecid I please move this Topic to: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!
Abdülmecid I

Abdülmecid I

[Sir Adrian]

The video is from today. Posted originally by the Armenian Youth Federation. The person speaking in the video is declaring that Eastern Turkey is occupied Western Armenia. You seriously need better reality checks.

Check the date on video

Eastern Turkey IS western Armenia historically.

[Nebaki]

Eastern Turkey IS western Armenia historically.

Aswell Byzantine/East Rome/Ottoman Empire or Sultanate of Rum or even Persian Empire - where we start with historical and when to stop?

[PointOfViewGun]

Check the date on video

Eastern Turkey IS western Armenia historically.

Sigh... That's a different demonstration. They are literally tweeting hour by hour from yesterday's demonstrations. The standards you're employing there merely work to undermine the credibility of your own position.

[Gaius Baltar]

Turkey says it will respond in time to 'outrageous' U.S. genocide statement

Turkish responses;

1. Declare the treatment of Native Americans by European settlers as genocide.

2. Perhaps restrict access to Incirlik airbase. Which is an anemic contribution, at best, to the international efforts in Syria and Iraq.

Biden spoke with Erdogan on Friday so that discussed this issue.

[Sir Adrian]

Aswell Byzantine/East Rome/Ottoman Empire or Sultanate of Rum or even Persian Empire - where we start with historical and when to stop?

I draw the line at cromagnon myself.

Sigh... That's a different demonstration. They are literally tweeting hour by hour from yesterday's demonstrations. The standards you're employing there merely work to undermine the credibility of your own position.

Believe what you want. In any case, the azeri flag was there because of the war and bringing it up does not make the Armenian genocide less real or the reparations owed by Turkey any less urgent.

PS: neither twitter link is working.

[Drtad]

Oh, sorry. It was not being done by Armenians in Armenia but done by Armenians in Los Angeles. What's richer? Me providing incorrect location for this or you only talking about that? Disgusting.

Lol. By saying that this was done in Yerevan, you are clearly implying that this was a huge demonstration in the capital of the Republic of Armenia and therefore had tacit government support (of course, such a demonstration has not occurred in Yerevan).

Of course it matters where this demonstration took place and who took part in it. Your posts are racist and genocide enabling by painting all Armenians with a broad brush (by implying all the Armenians in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire were potential rebels and were rightfully deported/killed and today by implying that a demonstration taking place in LA is equivalent to a hypothetical but fantasy demonstration taking place in Yerevan). That is racist and genocide-enabling.

[PointOfViewGun]

Believe what you want. In any case, the azeri flag was there because of the war and bringing it up does not make the Armenian genocide less real or the reparations owed by Turkey any less urgent.
PS: neither twitter link is working.

The link is working fine. I believe what I see. You are deliberately dragging your feet to avoid admitting that you made a false claim. A simple one at that. Nowhere did I argue or even remotely implied that what was going on in that demonstration had any relation to the merits of the allegations. You need to start formulating arguments based facts and what we actually say.

Lol. By saying that this was done in Yerevan, you are clearly implying that this was a huge demonstration in the capital of the Republic of Armenia and therefore had tacit government support (of course, such a demonstration has not occurred in Yerevan).

Of course it matters where this demonstration took place and who took part in it. Your posts are racist and genocide enabling by painting all Armenians with a broad brush (by implying all the Armenians in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire were potential rebels and were rightfully deported/killed and today by implying that a demonstration taking place in LA is equivalent to a hypothetical but fantasy demonstration taking place in Yerevan). That is racist and genocide-enabling.

What a bunch of lies. You can't rely on facts so you rely on making stuff up about what people say or argue. I never talked about government support nor even implied it. Whether the demonstration happened in Armenia, France or USA has little merit.

Nowhere did I argue that all the Armenians in the eastern provinces were potential rebels nor did I ever argued that they were rightfully killed. You can't argue with what I actually say so that you need to come up with such garbage. I never equalized killing of Armenians with what was happening in that demonstration as well.

It's disgusting that you see it in yourself to accuse me of racism and genocide enabling when you rely so much on lying about what I argued.