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Thread: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    So did the Armenian genocide really happen? I am confused.

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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    So did the Armenian genocide really happen? I am confused.
    Many people died. Armenians, Turks, Kurds, etc. Reasons include ethnic clashes between villages, diseases, famine, etc. Russians were advancing on the eastern front and Armenian groups were aiding the Russians by disrupting communication and logistics routes. So, the Ottomans decided to move part of the Armenian population to provinces in the south away from the eastern front. Many suffered but there was no intent to exterminate the Armenians. Hence, no, while it was a tragedy, it was no genocide.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #43

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Armenian groups were aiding the Russians by disrupting communication and logistics routes.
    You mean Ottoman Citiziens sided with a enemy called Tsardom of Russia against them? How it comes the Russians later left the Region and probably some Armenians which were part of these Groups thought War over now Peace anything I did during Wartime like plundering, raping or murdering my neighbours is forgotten i guess there can be no revenge and return peacefully Home (Still a Ottoman Territory).

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Many people died. Armenians, Turks, Kurds, etc. Reasons include ethnic clashes between villages, diseases, famine, etc. Russians were advancing on the eastern front and Armenian groups were aiding the Russians by disrupting communication and logistics routes. So, the Ottomans decided to move part of the Armenian population to provinces in the south away from the eastern front. Many suffered but there was no intent to exterminate the Armenians. Hence, no, while it was a tragedy, it was no genocide.
    The question of intentional genocide seems almost academic now. But perhaps that is a question for another thread. My thesis is that this represents a major fracture in the US-Turkish relations, and hypothesize an eventual split with NATO in the distant (or not so distant) future.

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  5. #45

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar View Post
    The question of intentional genocide seems almost academic now. But perhaps that is a question for another thread. My thesis is that this represents a major fracture in the US-Turkish relations, and hypothesize an eventual split with NATO in the distant (or not so distant) future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    A bunch of posts got deleted. Please respect the topic of the thread, which is the recognition of the Armenian genocide by President Biden and not...
    So what is this Topic about now? Relationship between Turkey - US and the recognition of the Armenian genocide by Presidet Biden or even that "Armenian Issue" is Secondary? On which Timeline we start now before World War I or Interwar period? Or even Millenium? Didn´t even understand what you're trying to achieve with this Thread since you skip as you like and ignoring replies. Do you even take this Topic serious?

    Israel and Turkey supported Azerbaijan in the NKR-Conflict against Armenia or moreover a one former ex-Soviet Republic against another - while the one in this case Azerbaijan has even improved his relationships to the West and having closer ties, Armenia still stayed more like a Russian Satellite or being still today an Russian Ally.

    According to this Article Mr. Biden is punishing Turkey and in that case only Turkey for his support for Azerbaijan by weaking another Russian Ally (Armenia). I thought Russia was Enemy No:1 for NATO and it is forbidden to even purchasing Weapons from it, but taking actions against them or even weaken is also not allowed. Who is blackmailing here the Alliance called of NATO? I´m a bit confused.

    Source: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/24/99054...=1619388172577
    Last edited by Nebaki; April 25, 2021 at 05:13 PM.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, the Ottomans decided to move all of the Armenian population to the afterlife.
    Fixed that for you.


    A good move by president Biden (not a statement I expected to make), hopefully my country (Israel) will follow suit.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post

    hopefully my country (Israel) will follow suit.
    Hopefully you will aswell return all the Land back to Palestine and I´m meaning all part of it for World Peace

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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Hopefully you will aswell return all the Land back to Palestine and I´m meaning all part of it for World Peace
    How can you return something to someone who never owned it?

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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Ahh yes. Recognize armenican genocide that happened 100+ years before but do absolutely nothing about last years war between Armenia and Azerbaijan. What a hypocricy

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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Ahh yes. Recognize armenican genocide that happened 100+ years before but do absolutely nothing about last years war between Armenia and Azerbaijan. What a hypocricy
    Well, first of all Biden wasn't president during that war so what do you expect him to have done?
    And secondly how is that hypocrisy?

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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Well, first of all Biden wasn't president during that war so what do you expect him to have done?
    And secondly how is that hypocrisy?
    Its hypocricy because US doesnt really care about Armenians or even christians in middle east. If they did they would have interfered in last years war in support of the Armenians. But since Armenians are pro-Russian then who cares?

  12. #52

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar View Post
    The question of intentional genocide seems almost academic now. But perhaps that is a question for another thread. My thesis is that this represents a major fracture in the US-Turkish relations, and hypothesize an eventual split with NATO in the distant (or not so distant) future.
    Its more of a contribution to the fracture between Turkish people and USA than it is between the Turkish and USA governments. From a NATO perspective, USA harboring Gülen since 1999 and USA's support for a group that it designates as Syrian branch of a terror organization are more existential issues. Turkish cozying up with Russia was never something Turkey done willingly. It was always done due to lack of alternatives. For decades Turkey wanted to buy Patriot missile system but USA was either at times directly unwilling through rejection or indirectly unwilling by giving a very high price. I'm not sure what people expected when Patriot batteries of so-called NATO allies were withdrawn while missiles from YPG were falling within the Turkish side of Syrian border. Turkish presence in Azerbijan-Armenia and Ukrainian conflicts presented great opportunities for USA to win back Turkey but there seems to be a persistent level of irrational hatred against Turkey in Washington. The question they need to ask themselves now is this: do they want to push Turkey further into the arms of the Russians and the Chinese?


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    A good move by president Biden (not a statement I expected to make), hopefully my country (Israel) will follow suit.
    Except the relocation was limited to eastern provinces. Hence about at least 300 thousand Armenians were still living in Ottoman territories in 1922. Even the most religious about genocide claims do not argue that the entire population was subjected to killings. The best they do is to ignore that part of the subject all together. It's unfortunate that people, in order to score political points from deaths of others, to utter such extremely ignorant claims on such an important subject like you have done.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #53

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Armenian genocide of 1915 was not the only one of mass massacres committed by Turks, in 1894-1896 under the rule of sultan Abdul Hamid they have butchered hundred of thousands of Armenians. By Turkish standards it could be considered like another unfortunate incident.

    It's pathetic to see how Turkish propaganda is trying to turn genocide into "common pain" of Armenians, Kurds and Turks, they try to push those deceiving lies outside of Turkey.

    Another fact to know is UK deliberately backing up its “partner” and joins them in shameful fact of denying Armenian genocide. Although I have to note the following:

    Catherine West MP has issued a statement on behalf of the Labour Party on the Armenian Genocide, the first time that a major political party in the UK has ever done so, reports the Armenian National Committee of UK. “After an incredibly difficult year marked with loss and grieving the Armenian people are in my thoughts today as they mark the horrendous events of 1915,” she said.
    “The atrocities committed against the Armenian people in the early part of the 20th century, are amongst the most appalling acts against a group of people the world has seen,” the MP added.
    Labor stands with the Armenian people in condemning the historic and present acts against them,” Catherine West stated.

    It is a huge shame on the UK to deny this fact because they as none else know what has happened. Arnold Toynbee:
    "In one way or another, the Central Government enforced and controlled the execution of the scheme, as it alone had originated the conception of it; and the Young Turkish Ministers and their associates at Constantinople are directly and personally responsible, from beginning to end, for the gigantic crime that devastated the Near East in 1915."

    In the book, "Armenian Horrors" Arnold Toynbee wrote: "All this horror, all these crimes were committed against the Armenians, despite the absence of even the slightest challenge from them." We are in a state of war, "the Turkish government will probably object." It is this "argument" of wartime, along with the allegations of "Russian aggression against Turkey", that has been used by the Turkish authorities for decades.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    And what will we do about 520.000 Turkish killed by Armenians at 1915? It is still strange that no one considers it a genocide when Muslims are killed. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/ar...academic/56681

    If president Biden was really serious, i would expect him by starting to recognize Native American genocide; If anything, trail of tears is one of the biggest humanitarian disaster of human history; Sending all of Native Americans living at east of Mississipi to desert is one of biggest humanitarian disaster of history. And isn't US president Theodore Roosevelt who said; "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are. And I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth." By the way, Americans were paying money for Native American scalps, even for the ones belonging to children! (https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1199196.shtml)

    If Biden did recognize Native American genocide, then there would be a serious discussion in Turkey about our own history. Until then, everyone must look to the mirror.
    Last edited by Odenat; April 26, 2021 at 04:35 AM.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Many people died. Armenians, Turks, Kurds, etc. Reasons include ethnic clashes between villages, diseases, famine, etc. Russians were advancing on the eastern front and Armenian groups were aiding the Russians by disrupting communication and logistics routes. So, the Ottomans decided to move part of the Armenian population to provinces in the south away from the eastern front. Many suffered but there was no intent to exterminate the Armenians. Hence, no, while it was a tragedy, it was no genocide.
    Patently absurd. The fact that some Armenian groups (estimates indicate up to 5000 people going to fight for Russia) went to fight on the Russian side is no excuse for massacring and deporting the entire population (of Pontus/Western Armenia/Cilicia/Cappadocia) of a particular ethnic group (not to mention Yezidis, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks). Remember, over 100,000 Armenians were drafted and fighting in the Ottoman army, before they were massacred or sent to death camps as well (see Halil Kut's actions against the Armenians in his army after he blamed them for his defeat at the Battle of Dilman). Also it's funny that someone can seriously believe that Armenians disrupting logistics routes could be an excuse for this - would hundreds of thousands of elderly, women, and children civilians marching along logistics routes not disrupt logistics routes? In fact we know that the actions made the logistics much, much worse.

    Saying that deporting and massacring the entire population of a region due to some anti-government groups is like saying that apartheid is ok because Nelson Mandela's political party bombed some civilian locations. Absurd, racist, genocide-enabling posts, all of them.

    Except the relocation was limited to eastern provinces. Hence about at least 300 thousand Armenians were still living in Ottoman territories in 1922. Even the most religious about genocide claims do not argue that the entire population was subjected to killings. The best they do is to ignore that part of the subject all together. It's unfortunate that people, in order to score political points from deaths of others, to utter such extremely ignorant claims on such an important subject like you have done.
    "limited to eastern provinces" of course means the entire population in Pontus, Western Armenia, Cappadocia, and Cilicia. Again, using the fact that some people survived the death marches and massacres to say that there was no genocidal intent is absolutely absurd. Not everyone died in the Holocaust either.

    Standard denialist tactics - dumb down the conversation so much that people get hung up on irrelevant issues and forget that issues like facing the past, reparations, and a final peace between everyone in the region needs to be done following the recognition of what happened as genocide (Armenian, Pontic Greek, Yezidi, and Assyrian). It's the only way to achieve a final peace.
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Its hypocricy because US doesnt really care about Armenians or even christians in middle east. If they did they would have interfered in last years war in support of the Armenians. But since Armenians are pro-Russian then who cares?
    So you're saying that Biden is hypocritical because Trump didn't intervene..?


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Except the relocation was limited to eastern provinces.
    So to be clear your argument is that this wasn't a genocide but rather an ethnic cleansing?

  17. #57

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drtad View Post
    Patently absurd. The fact that some Armenian groups (estimates indicate up to 5000 people going to fight for Russia)
    You forgot the [1] and one more [0] on your funny claims which makes even your next posts more worthless - According to this Source the Size was even at the end 150.000 and they already began to join the Ranks of Russian Army even before Ottomans entered the War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_volunteer_units

    We got also some Armenian Freedom Fighters here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_fedayi

    How it comes these all happened even before 1915

    So do you guys really sum up the Events from 1860 until 1915 or even probably the ones who even died on normal cause of death and call it "Genocide" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeni...ation_movement

    What kind of hypocrisy is that please? Your own claims which you even made on the previous Threads related to NKR-Conflict are already been discussed and still got invalid by your own Sources aswell from posts of various other known Users. You just Ignore that Fact and repeat the same things over and over again.

    This is not how it works and you will not achieve anything with it.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post

    If Biden did recognize Native American genocide, then there would be a serious discussion in Turkey about our own history. Until then, everyone must look to the mirror.
    Germany recognized Holocaust and paid full price for atrocities it has committed in the past in every sense possible. This is how you solve this kind of things with dignity (they could use different tactics to deny it but did not do so). They also have recognized Armenian Genocide couple of years ago. There are so many Turks which live in Germany, so is Germany's recognition of genocide is not enough for you to look in the mirror?

  19. #59

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vardano View Post
    It is a huge shame on the UK to deny this fact because they as none else know what has happened. Arnold Toynbee:
    "In one way or another, the Central Government enforced and controlled the execution of the scheme, as it alone had originated the conception of it; and the Young Turkish Ministers and their associates at Constantinople are directly and personally responsible, from beginning to end, for the gigantic crime that devastated the Near East in 1915."

    In the book, "Armenian Horrors" Arnold Toynbee wrote: "All this horror, all these crimes were committed against the Armenians, despite the absence of even the slightest challenge from them." We are in a state of war, "the Turkish government will probably object." It is this "argument" of wartime, along with the allegations of "Russian aggression against Turkey", that has been used by the Turkish authorities for decades.
    It is very fitting that you mention Arnold Toynbee who was commissioned by Lord Bryce to compile a propaganda document against Ottomans as they were fighting them. He himself admitted that it was a propaganda piece.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drtad View Post
    Patently absurd. The fact that some Armenian groups (estimates indicate up to 5000 people going to fight for Russia) went to fight on the Russian side is no excuse for massacring and deporting the entire population (of Pontus/Western Armenia/Cilicia/Cappadocia) of a particular ethnic group (not to mention Yezidis, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks). Remember, over 100,000 Armenians were drafted and fighting in the Ottoman army, before they were massacred or sent to death camps as well (see Halil Kut's actions against the Armenians in his army after he blamed them for his defeat at the Battle of Dilman). Also it's funny that someone can seriously believe that Armenians disrupting logistics routes could be an excuse for this - would hundreds of thousands of elderly, women, and children civilians marching along logistics routes not disrupt logistics routes? In fact we know that the actions made the logistics much, much worse.
    Saying that deporting and massacring the entire population of a region due to some anti-government groups is like saying that apartheid is ok because Nelson Mandela's political party bombed some civilian locations. Absurd, racist, genocide-enabling posts, all of them.
    Under Andranik alone Armenian volunteers from Ottoman territories included 50 thousand (in addition to 150 thousand Armenians from Russian territories) fighting for the Russians on the eastern front per Boghos Nubar pasha's reports. No, no way near 5 thousand. Ottomans regarded this threat on the eastern front as existential. It very much was. Ottomans could either watch their eastern front collapse and watch as Russians march towards the Mediterranean, or they could try to do something about it best to their ability. Just because Ottoman empire at the time was weak and they lacked the resources to carry out such a relocation task adequately doesn't take away from the fact that it was not done to kill Armenian populations of the eastern provinces.

    The threat from Armenian gangs was quite real:
    Notes by the Legation Councillor in the Foreign Office Rosenberg
    Until the spring of this year there had been quite a good relationship between the Armenians and the Turks, all the more explained by the fact that during the period of revolution the Armenians had sympathised with the Committee and together they had taken action against the old regime. A drastic change had first come about in April, when the Armenians revolted behind the Turkish army during the Turkish advance on Azerbaijan, during which no fewer than 180000 Mohammedans were killed. Thus, it was not surprising that the Mohammedans had taken their revenge for this. The removal of the Armenians into the interior was necessary for military reasons and in the interest of Turkey’s self-preservation. If attacks had been carried out during this, they were most certainly disapproved of by the central government. Unfortunately, because of the large spatial distances and the primitive conditions of the empire, the central government was not always in a position to prevent clumsiness and carelessness in the lower authorities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drtad View Post
    "limited to eastern provinces" of course means the entire population in Pontus, Western Armenia, Cappadocia, and Cilicia. Again, using the fact that some people survived the death marches and massacres to say that there was no genocidal intent is absolutely absurd. Not everyone died in the Holocaust either.
    Standard denialist tactics - dumb down the conversation so much that people get hung up on irrelevant issues and forget that issues like facing the past, reparations, and a final peace between everyone in the region needs to be done following the recognition of what happened as genocide (Armenian, Pontic Greek, Yezidi, and Assyrian). It's the only way to achieve a final peace.
    You are the one projecting the shortcomings of your own position on to me. You want to dumb it down to sensationalism and appeal to emotions to make us ignore facts of the matter. That's why you're making an issue out of me correcting nhytgbvfeco2's false claim that all Armenians in Ottoman empire were moved to be killed. No one here said that it was not a genocide because not all Armenians died. You merely want everyone to accept what you say at face value and do not question it when actual evidence grants it. Carry on with that all you want. It's disrespectful to all that died pointlessly back then.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    So to be clear your argument is that this wasn't a genocide but rather an ethnic cleansing?
    Yes, the Ottomans wanted to ethnically cleanse the provinces behind Russian advancements to relieve an already weakened eastern front. Likes of that tactic is not uncommon. Ethnic cleansing and genocide charges are very different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vardano View Post
    Germany recognized Holocaust and paid full price for atrocities it has committed in the past in every sense possible. This is how you solve this kind of things with dignity (they could use different tactics to deny it but did not do so). They also have recognized Armenian Genocide couple of years ago. There are so many Turks which live in Germany, so is Germany's recognition of genocide is not enough for you to look in the mirror?
    When the Armenian allegations can even deploy a fraction of the quantity and quality of evidence the Holocaust can deploy let us now
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #60
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I am confident you have read extensively on a lot of biased sources or outright falsehoods, hence the description you're propagating. There were no death camps to kill Armenians. If there were the Armenians wouldn't need to forge documents to create their existence.



    USA's consul was collecting money to give money to Armenians that were being massacred on spot? It's an absurd suggestion. We speak of a Lebanese and Syrian Armenian communities today because of these relocations. It was an abysmal effort to relocate Armenians but no, Armenians were not being sent to camps to get gased.
    I never once said Armenians were gassed in concentration camps. Don't lie about what I actually said.

    And Yes POVG I know you don't believe in the genocide and that you call much of the evidence for it biased or just ignore it. Go get someone else dumb enough to waste their time trying to convince you otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I am confident you have read extensively on a lot of biased sources or outright falsehoods, hence the description you're propagating. There were no death camps to kill Armenians. If there were the Armenians wouldn't need to forge documents to create their existence.



    USA's consul was collecting money to give money to Armenians that were being massacred on spot? It's an absurd suggestion. We speak of a Lebanese and Syrian Armenian communities today because of these relocations. It was an abysmal effort to relocate Armenians but no, Armenians were not being sent to camps to get gased.
    I never once said Armenians were gassed in concentration camps. Don't lie about what I actually said.

    And Yes POVG I know you don't believe in the genocide and that you call much of the evidence for it biased or just ignore it. Go get someone else dumb enough to waste their time trying to convince you otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar View Post
    Turkeys role as the southern anchor for NATO would seem to be more and more unstable. The USSR was a real threat back in the 60s and 70s. Today Russia just does not have the capability or the need to carry out any major operations oriented towards Turkey, the Caucuses or the Middle East. Sure, maybe a small defensive operation like we have seen in Georgia and Crimea, but there is no way they could sustain a major offensive surge into the area. All of their resources are targeted at eastern Europe right now I that is probably more than they can chew anyway.

    The real question is will Turkey support NATO when conflict arises with Russia in the Baltic and Ukraine? Somehow I see them sitting it out. There is nothing to be gained and much to lose, and their regional interests will take a priority anyway with the nagging problem of the Kurds and the remaining Christian populations.

    A failing EU and a NATO setback in the Baltic could persuade the Turks to leave NATO and search for greener pastures.
    Turkey likely would not get involved. They can leave NATO, but they don't really have any friends. They keep stepping on the toes of everyone around them. Turkey would just become more isolated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    And what will we do about 520.000 Turkish killed by Armenians at 1915? It is still strange that no one considers it a genocide when Muslims are killed. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/ar...academic/56681

    If president Biden was really serious, i would expect him by starting to recognize Native American genocide; If anything, trail of tears is one of the biggest humanitarian disaster of human history; Sending all of Native Americans living at east of Mississipi to desert is one of biggest humanitarian disaster of history. And isn't US president Theodore Roosevelt who said; "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are. And I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth." By the way, Americans were paying money for Native American scalps, even for the ones belonging to children! (https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1199196.shtml)

    If Biden did recognize Native American genocide, then there would be a serious discussion in Turkey about our own history. Until then, everyone must look to the mirror.
    Trail of Tears one of the biggest humanitarian disasters in history? How so?
    Last edited by Vanoi; April 26, 2021 at 09:55 AM.

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