So did the Armenian genocide really happen? I am confused.
So did the Armenian genocide really happen? I am confused.
Many people died. Armenians, Turks, Kurds, etc. Reasons include ethnic clashes between villages, diseases, famine, etc. Russians were advancing on the eastern front and Armenian groups were aiding the Russians by disrupting communication and logistics routes. So, the Ottomans decided to move part of the Armenian population to provinces in the south away from the eastern front. Many suffered but there was no intent to exterminate the Armenians. Hence, no, while it was a tragedy, it was no genocide.
The Armenian Issuehttp://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930
GTA 6 Thread
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?819300-GTA-6-Reveal-Trailer
"We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."
You mean Ottoman Citiziens sided with a enemy called Tsardom of Russia against them? How it comes the Russians later left the Region and probably some Armenians which were part of these Groups thought War over now Peace anything I did during Wartime like plundering, raping or murdering my neighbours is forgotten i guess there can be no revenge and return peacefully Home (Still a Ottoman Territory).
The question of intentional genocide seems almost academic now. But perhaps that is a question for another thread. My thesis is that this represents a major fracture in the US-Turkish relations, and hypothesize an eventual split with NATO in the distant (or not so distant) future.
Novus Ordo Hebdomadum - Reinstalling: A Total War Aficionado’s StoryPillaging and Plundering since 2006
The House of Baltar
Neither is this the dawn from the east, nor is a dragon flying above, nor are the gables of this hall aflame. Nay, mortal enemies approach in ready armour. Ravens are calling, wolves are howling, spear clashes and shield answers
So what is this Topic about now? Relationship between Turkey - US and the recognition of the Armenian genocide by Presidet Biden or even that "Armenian Issue" is Secondary? On which Timeline we start now before World War I or Interwar period? Or even Millenium? Didn´t even understand what you're trying to achieve with this Thread since you skip as you like and ignoring replies. Do you even take this Topic serious?
Israel and Turkey supported Azerbaijan in the NKR-Conflict against Armenia or moreover a one former ex-Soviet Republic against another - while the one in this case Azerbaijan has even improved his relationships to the West and having closer ties, Armenia still stayed more like a Russian Satellite or being still today an Russian Ally.
According to this Article Mr. Biden is punishing Turkey and in that case only Turkey for his support for Azerbaijan by weaking another Russian Ally (Armenia). I thought Russia was Enemy No:1 for NATO and it is forbidden to even purchasing Weapons from it, but taking actions against them or even weaken is also not allowed. Who is blackmailing here the Alliance called of NATO? I´m a bit confused.
Source: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/24/99054...=1619388172577
Last edited by Nebaki; April 25, 2021 at 05:13 PM.
Ahh yes. Recognize armenican genocide that happened 100+ years before but do absolutely nothing about last years war between Armenia and Azerbaijan. What a hypocricy
Its more of a contribution to the fracture between Turkish people and USA than it is between the Turkish and USA governments. From a NATO perspective, USA harboring Gülen since 1999 and USA's support for a group that it designates as Syrian branch of a terror organization are more existential issues. Turkish cozying up with Russia was never something Turkey done willingly. It was always done due to lack of alternatives. For decades Turkey wanted to buy Patriot missile system but USA was either at times directly unwilling through rejection or indirectly unwilling by giving a very high price. I'm not sure what people expected when Patriot batteries of so-called NATO allies were withdrawn while missiles from YPG were falling within the Turkish side of Syrian border. Turkish presence in Azerbijan-Armenia and Ukrainian conflicts presented great opportunities for USA to win back Turkey but there seems to be a persistent level of irrational hatred against Turkey in Washington. The question they need to ask themselves now is this: do they want to push Turkey further into the arms of the Russians and the Chinese?
Except the relocation was limited to eastern provinces. Hence about at least 300 thousand Armenians were still living in Ottoman territories in 1922. Even the most religious about genocide claims do not argue that the entire population was subjected to killings. The best they do is to ignore that part of the subject all together. It's unfortunate that people, in order to score political points from deaths of others, to utter such extremely ignorant claims on such an important subject like you have done.
The Armenian Issuehttp://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930
GTA 6 Thread
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?819300-GTA-6-Reveal-Trailer
"We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."
Armenian genocide of 1915 was not the only one of mass massacres committed by Turks, in 1894-1896 under the rule of sultan Abdul Hamid they have butchered hundred of thousands of Armenians. By Turkish standards it could be considered like another unfortunate incident.
It's pathetic to see how Turkish propaganda is trying to turn genocide into "common pain" of Armenians, Kurds and Turks, they try to push those deceiving lies outside of Turkey.
Another fact to know is UK deliberately backing up its “partner” and joins them in shameful fact of denying Armenian genocide. Although I have to note the following:
Catherine West MP has issued a statement on behalf of the Labour Party on the Armenian Genocide, the first time that a major political party in the UK has ever done so, reports the Armenian National Committee of UK. “After an incredibly difficult year marked with loss and grieving the Armenian people are in my thoughts today as they mark the horrendous events of 1915,” she said.
“The atrocities committed against the Armenian people in the early part of the 20th century, are amongst the most appalling acts against a group of people the world has seen,” the MP added.
Labor stands with the Armenian people in condemning the historic and present acts against them,” Catherine West stated.
It is a huge shame on the UK to deny this fact because they as none else know what has happened. Arnold Toynbee:
"In one way or another, the Central Government enforced and controlled the execution of the scheme, as it alone had originated the conception of it; and the Young Turkish Ministers and their associates at Constantinople are directly and personally responsible, from beginning to end, for the gigantic crime that devastated the Near East in 1915."
In the book, "Armenian Horrors" Arnold Toynbee wrote: "All this horror, all these crimes were committed against the Armenians, despite the absence of even the slightest challenge from them." We are in a state of war, "the Turkish government will probably object." It is this "argument" of wartime, along with the allegations of "Russian aggression against Turkey", that has been used by the Turkish authorities for decades.
And what will we do about 520.000 Turkish killed by Armenians at 1915? It is still strange that no one considers it a genocide when Muslims are killed. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/ar...academic/56681
If president Biden was really serious, i would expect him by starting to recognize Native American genocide; If anything, trail of tears is one of the biggest humanitarian disaster of human history; Sending all of Native Americans living at east of Mississipi to desert is one of biggest humanitarian disaster of history. And isn't US president Theodore Roosevelt who said; "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are. And I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth." By the way, Americans were paying money for Native American scalps, even for the ones belonging to children! (https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1199196.shtml)
If Biden did recognize Native American genocide, then there would be a serious discussion in Turkey about our own history. Until then, everyone must look to the mirror.
Last edited by Odenat; April 26, 2021 at 04:35 AM.
Patently absurd. The fact that some Armenian groups (estimates indicate up to 5000 people going to fight for Russia) went to fight on the Russian side is no excuse for massacring and deporting the entire population (of Pontus/Western Armenia/Cilicia/Cappadocia) of a particular ethnic group (not to mention Yezidis, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks). Remember, over 100,000 Armenians were drafted and fighting in the Ottoman army, before they were massacred or sent to death camps as well (see Halil Kut's actions against the Armenians in his army after he blamed them for his defeat at the Battle of Dilman). Also it's funny that someone can seriously believe that Armenians disrupting logistics routes could be an excuse for this - would hundreds of thousands of elderly, women, and children civilians marching along logistics routes not disrupt logistics routes? In fact we know that the actions made the logistics much, much worse.
Saying that deporting and massacring the entire population of a region due to some anti-government groups is like saying that apartheid is ok because Nelson Mandela's political party bombed some civilian locations. Absurd, racist, genocide-enabling posts, all of them.
"limited to eastern provinces" of course means the entire population in Pontus, Western Armenia, Cappadocia, and Cilicia. Again, using the fact that some people survived the death marches and massacres to say that there was no genocidal intent is absolutely absurd. Not everyone died in the Holocaust either.Except the relocation was limited to eastern provinces. Hence about at least 300 thousand Armenians were still living in Ottoman territories in 1922. Even the most religious about genocide claims do not argue that the entire population was subjected to killings. The best they do is to ignore that part of the subject all together. It's unfortunate that people, in order to score political points from deaths of others, to utter such extremely ignorant claims on such an important subject like you have done.
Standard denialist tactics - dumb down the conversation so much that people get hung up on irrelevant issues and forget that issues like facing the past, reparations, and a final peace between everyone in the region needs to be done following the recognition of what happened as genocide (Armenian, Pontic Greek, Yezidi, and Assyrian). It's the only way to achieve a final peace.
Under the patronage of John I Tzimisces
You forgot the [1] and one more [0] on your funny claims which makes even your next posts more worthless - According to this Source the Size was even at the end 150.000 and they already began to join the Ranks of Russian Army even before Ottomans entered the War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_volunteer_units
We got also some Armenian Freedom Fighters here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_fedayi
How it comes these all happened even before 1915
So do you guys really sum up the Events from 1860 until 1915 or even probably the ones who even died on normal cause of death and call it "Genocide" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeni...ation_movement
What kind of hypocrisy is that please? Your own claims which you even made on the previous Threads related to NKR-Conflict are already been discussed and still got invalid by your own Sources aswell from posts of various other known Users. You just Ignore that Fact and repeat the same things over and over again.
This is not how it works and you will not achieve anything with it.
Germany recognized Holocaust and paid full price for atrocities it has committed in the past in every sense possible. This is how you solve this kind of things with dignity (they could use different tactics to deny it but did not do so). They also have recognized Armenian Genocide couple of years ago. There are so many Turks which live in Germany, so is Germany's recognition of genocide is not enough for you to look in the mirror?
It is very fitting that you mention Arnold Toynbee who was commissioned by Lord Bryce to compile a propaganda document against Ottomans as they were fighting them. He himself admitted that it was a propaganda piece.
Under Andranik alone Armenian volunteers from Ottoman territories included 50 thousand (in addition to 150 thousand Armenians from Russian territories) fighting for the Russians on the eastern front per Boghos Nubar pasha's reports. No, no way near 5 thousand. Ottomans regarded this threat on the eastern front as existential. It very much was. Ottomans could either watch their eastern front collapse and watch as Russians march towards the Mediterranean, or they could try to do something about it best to their ability. Just because Ottoman empire at the time was weak and they lacked the resources to carry out such a relocation task adequately doesn't take away from the fact that it was not done to kill Armenian populations of the eastern provinces.
The threat from Armenian gangs was quite real:
Notes by the Legation Councillor in the Foreign Office Rosenberg
Until the spring of this year there had been quite a good relationship between the Armenians and the Turks, all the more explained by the fact that during the period of revolution the Armenians had sympathised with the Committee and together they had taken action against the old regime. A drastic change had first come about in April, when the Armenians revolted behind the Turkish army during the Turkish advance on Azerbaijan, during which no fewer than 180000 Mohammedans were killed. Thus, it was not surprising that the Mohammedans had taken their revenge for this. The removal of the Armenians into the interior was necessary for military reasons and in the interest of Turkey’s self-preservation. If attacks had been carried out during this, they were most certainly disapproved of by the central government. Unfortunately, because of the large spatial distances and the primitive conditions of the empire, the central government was not always in a position to prevent clumsiness and carelessness in the lower authorities.
You are the one projecting the shortcomings of your own position on to me. You want to dumb it down to sensationalism and appeal to emotions to make us ignore facts of the matter. That's why you're making an issue out of me correcting nhytgbvfeco2's false claim that all Armenians in Ottoman empire were moved to be killed. No one here said that it was not a genocide because not all Armenians died. You merely want everyone to accept what you say at face value and do not question it when actual evidence grants it. Carry on with that all you want. It's disrespectful to all that died pointlessly back then.
Yes, the Ottomans wanted to ethnically cleanse the provinces behind Russian advancements to relieve an already weakened eastern front. Likes of that tactic is not uncommon. Ethnic cleansing and genocide charges are very different.
When the Armenian allegations can even deploy a fraction of the quantity and quality of evidence the Holocaust can deploy let us now
The Armenian Issuehttp://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930
GTA 6 Thread
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?819300-GTA-6-Reveal-Trailer
"We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."
I never once said Armenians were gassed in concentration camps. Don't lie about what I actually said.
And Yes POVG I know you don't believe in the genocide and that you call much of the evidence for it biased or just ignore it. Go get someone else dumb enough to waste their time trying to convince you otherwise.
I never once said Armenians were gassed in concentration camps. Don't lie about what I actually said.
And Yes POVG I know you don't believe in the genocide and that you call much of the evidence for it biased or just ignore it. Go get someone else dumb enough to waste their time trying to convince you otherwise.
Turkey likely would not get involved. They can leave NATO, but they don't really have any friends. They keep stepping on the toes of everyone around them. Turkey would just become more isolated.
Trail of Tears one of the biggest humanitarian disasters in history? How so?
Last edited by Vanoi; April 26, 2021 at 09:55 AM.