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Thread: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    1000s? You're not even trying to make it sound realistic, don't you? By your logic Galileo was a denialist.
    Literally 1000s of people in related fields of study. Galileo was science not history but if 100 years after Galileo had been proven right a few outlier scientists refused to accept reality like the very very few historians who do not believe the Armenian genocide happened those scientists would be denialists regardless of their expertise.

    Correct.

  2. #162

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Literally 1000s of people in related fields of study. Galileo was science not history but if 100 years after Galileo had been proven right a few outlier scientists refused to accept reality like the very very few historians who do not believe the Armenian genocide happened those scientists would be denialists regardless of their expertise.

    Correct.
    I love how just two posts ago you were making a connection with science. Now history isn't science (though many regard history as science since its based on observed evidence which is subject to change)... Nope. There are no 1000s of related historians for there to be 1000s of them giving credit to genocide allegations. There isn't even such a petition for any of us to know how many of them give credit to the allegations. What I know is that many of those, if not all, or even vast majority of, that are the experts on Ottoman history do not agree with the allegations. You seem to be merely parroting what Wikipedia writes which is a troubling start in itself.
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  3. #163
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I love how just two posts ago you were making a connection with science. Now history isn't science (though many regard history as science since its based on observed evidence which is subject to change)... Nope. There are no 1000s of related historians for there to be 1000s of them giving credit to genocide allegations. There isn't even such a petition for any of us to know how many of them give credit to the allegations. What I know is that many of those, if not all, or even vast majority of, that are the experts on Ottoman history do not agree with the allegations. You seem to be merely parroting what Wikipedia writes which is a troubling start in itself.
    I thought it was clear to anyone that the final verdict matters most especially in science. My bad. I forget not everyone took 7 semesters of systematic philosophy. There are easily 10000 people on earth who have some level of expertise or education on the Armenian genocide or related. You must know this?

    Trump also says Wikipedia is lies as do Nazis, science deniers and tinpot despots around the globe. Birds of a feather...

  4. #164

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    I've read some of the articles PointofViewGun has referenced and I find less than compelling. On the other hand articles such as this one are much more in line with what I learned from history professors who specialized in the period of 100 years prior to WWI.

    "The records of foreign representatives living in the Ottoman Empire during World War I are both diverse and consistent. Even if one ignores the accounts of Istanbul’s wartime opponents (such as British, French, American or Russian observers), reports from German and Austrian diplomats and officers offer testimony drawn from both high Ottoman officials and observations in the field. Though certainly not privy to all available information, German and Austrian accounts give clear indications of what one diplomat referred to as Ottoman efforts “to make a clean sweep of their internal enemies, the indigenous Christians.” From the contemporary perspective of Istanbul’s allies, the Ottoman administration intended to use mass deportations and massacres to cull the empire’s Armenian population to the point that it no longer presented a threat to the state and nation...

    What is especially glaring in Erickson’s depiction of the historical record is its utter avoidance of perhaps the most important source of all: the testimony of victimized Armenians themselves. Collections such as those amassed by the Zoryan Institute and the University of Southern California’s Shoah Foundation allow students access to literally hundreds of videos of men and women who experienced the worst of the 1915 campaign, massacres, rapes, and abductions at the hands of Ottoman soldiers, gendarmes, and irregulars. Unlike with the archives in Turkey, one does not need to travel to Toronto or Los Angeles to access these collections. The value of these oral accounts extends beyond the insights they offer into the organization and execution of the genocide. They stand as vivid and essential reminders of the human costs of 1915."
    https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/th...nian-genocide/
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  5. #165
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Sorry, dear Turkish forum peers (well... some), but this was clearly a move in the right direction. I don't understand why this is so hard to accept, seriously. An acknowledgement of the cruel actions undertaken by Ottoman paramilitaries as ethnic cleansing and genocide is long overdue. This is not simply being done to piss off Turkey. It was series of mass killings targeting an ethnic group and it had clearly the scope of ethnic cleansing at least bordering to genocide. The only thing that is reasonably open for debate is whether or not the mass murders were the responsibility of Ottoman officials at the time, but this is a rather moot point in the end. The Rwandan genocide, as a comparison, was of a smaller dimension and was also not ordered by some form of central command. It's time, fellas... deal with it. There is no shame in accepting the facts, on the contrary.

  6. #166

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Since the Turkish military has now been castrated, I would have thought it might be quite convenient to throw the Ottoman Empire and/or Ataturk under the bus, blame all injustices on them.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  7. #167

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    I thought it was clear to anyone that the final verdict matters most especially in science. My bad. I forget not everyone took 7 semesters of systematic philosophy. There are easily 10000 people on earth who have some level of expertise or education on the Armenian genocide or related. You must know this?
    How do you know this?


    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    I've read some of the articles PointofViewGun has referenced and I find less than compelling. On the other hand articles such as this one are much more in line with what I learned from history professors who specialized in the period of 100 years prior to WWI.

    "The records of foreign representatives living in the Ottoman Empire during World War I are both diverse and consistent. Even if one ignores the accounts of Istanbul’s wartime opponents (such as British, French, American or Russian observers), reports from German and Austrian diplomats and officers offer testimony drawn from both high Ottoman officials and observations in the field. Though certainly not privy to all available information, German and Austrian accounts give clear indications of what one diplomat referred to as Ottoman efforts “to make a clean sweep of their internal enemies, the indigenous Christians.” From the contemporary perspective of Istanbul’s allies, the Ottoman administration intended to use mass deportations and massacres to cull the empire’s Armenian population to the point that it no longer presented a threat to the state and nation...

    What is especially glaring in Erickson’s depiction of the historical record is its utter avoidance of perhaps the most important source of all: the testimony of victimized Armenians themselves. Collections such as those amassed by the Zoryan Institute and the University of Southern California’s Shoah Foundation allow students access to literally hundreds of videos of men and women who experienced the worst of the 1915 campaign, massacres, rapes, and abductions at the hands of Ottoman soldiers, gendarmes, and irregulars. Unlike with the archives in Turkey, one does not need to travel to Toronto or Los Angeles to access these collections. The value of these oral accounts extends beyond the insights they offer into the organization and execution of the genocide. They stand as vivid and essential reminders of the human costs of 1915."
    https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/th...nian-genocide/
    Interesting article. He is openly dismissing anything damaging to his narrative and opts to rely on what can be best described as hearsay. He is also highly selective about his framing. Gingeras argues as if all the foreigners of the time speak of what happened as if there was a genocide while ignoring existence of many other foreigners (some already linked by me) that speak otherwise. In the end, Gingeras is guilty of what most people that support the allegations of genocide are guilty of; lying about what people argue. They more often than not make stuff up about what people they debate with argued or pointed out.

    Lets analyze. Gingeras is writing in response to Erickson's article (thank you for finding this gem). Gingeras implies that British, French and Russian sources already argue as if the genocide allegations are true:
    The records of foreign representatives living in the Ottoman Empire during World War I are both diverse and consistent. Even if one ignores the accounts of Istanbul’s wartime opponents (such as British, French, American or Russian observers), reports from German and Austrian diplomats and officers offer testimony drawn from both high Ottoman officials and observations in the field.
    Erickson pointed out the exact opposite:
    There is a large amount of archival evidence that has been excluded from the Armenian version of the narrative. Much of this evidence is inconvenient for the Armenian diaspora because it provides counterpoints to the notion that an actual genocide occurred. The exclusion of inconvenient evidence has led to a mythology about World War I that presents the entire Ottoman-Armenian population solely as victims. British, French, Russian, and Turkish archives provide ample probative evidence on a number of facts that do not support the case that a genocide took place.
    Gingeras also claims that new work is done exhaustively from archives:
    Critical to Erickson’s rendition of events is his assertion that “a large amount of archival evidence” has been excluded from what he derisively calls “the Armenian version of the narrative.” Beyond presuming that ethnic bias is the cause for the controversy, such a statement infers that genocide scholars have failed to take advantage of the full archival record. Again, such a claim is both inaccurate as well as highly misleading. For one thing, rigorous archival research is now, more than ever, the yardstick by which any work dealing with the Armenian Genocide is measured. One may say that the high bar for scholarship in the field is due to the Turkish government’s insistence that Ottoman archival documents prove there was no ill intent in the 1915 campaign against Armenians. Cumulatively, there is a broad understanding of what the archival record says and does not say. Though there is always more work to be done, the evidence that has already come to light is damning.
    Yet, from discrepancies between Morgenthau and Armin T. Wegner's book and personal notes to reports of various foreigners, any archival evidence that undermines depictions of a genocide are ignored. Though Gingeras' strongest claim is that Erickson completely ignores Armenian archives or testimonies. There is nothing in Erickson's article that suggests this. In fact, Erickson's works often makes use of Armenian sources as they often go contrary to the common narrative utilized by people that support the genocide allegations.
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  8. #168

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    It's time, fellas... deal with it.
    Since when you are deciding it or even some politicians? Was there even a Court which described back in Time these Events as "Genocide" and even got acknowledged? Im speaking here about a serious Institution and not some for example random German Leftists which are trying to gain more votes for their next upcoming elections.

    But this Thread is already reaching his 10th Page and there was already many things already been posted and discussed - exhausted. How it comes some People are appearing from time to time and skipping these "Pages" and posting same things over again and then making claims like these:

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    The only thing that is reasonably open for debate is...
    Im just asking myself how someone can even decide this?
    Last edited by Nebaki; May 06, 2021 at 09:43 AM.

  9. #169
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    How do you know this?
    A basic understanding of the number of people in the world, how the world works, where human knowledge focuses and of course, the part of my response you will likely struggle with most, common sense.

    How do you not know this?


    love that everyone is using narrative on here these days

  10. #170

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    the part of my response you will likely struggle with most...
    How can you even now this on a position like this:



    The Sixth Sense?


  11. #171

    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    A basic understanding of the number of people in the world, how the world works, where human knowledge focuses and of course, the part of my response you will likely struggle with most, common sense.
    How do you not know this?
    love that everyone is using narrative on here these days
    You made quite a specific claim, that there are at least 10 thousand people on earth with an expertise in what happened to Armenians during WWI. What you say there doesn't explain how you know such a number.
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  12. #172
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    Default Re: Biden says Armenian mass killing was genocide- What next for Turkish - US Relations?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You made quite a specific claim, that there are at least 10 thousand people on earth with an expertise in what happened to Armenians during WWI. What you say there doesn't explain how you know such a number.
    The number is likely far higher. My explanation seems to suffice for most. The world is only as deep as one can see. This is why fools think themselves profound.

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