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Thread: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

  1. #41

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    There's an easy way to test how the AI handles it. Find one of the historical battles which features phalanxes. In the folder in which they appear (data\world\maps\base\battle\custom\ ) and delete the battle_script.txt. Don't worry, they're all identical, you can copy it from another battle's folder to restore it.
    Well... I tested it in a few simpler battles and It seems to work relatively well. As we all know, the AI's phalanxes won't hold picture-perfect formations with guard mode off, but contrary to my expectations, they seem to suffer a bit more than usual in forests and difficult terrain. After fiddling around with a few more custom battles... I tested it with the historical Battle of Ipsos, and I must say... What an absolute mess. A glorious, brutal, phalanx-heavy mess.

    On the other hand, when there are only 2-3 phalanx units in an AI army, they seem to perform quite well... they still often lag behind the rest of the army since they can't march double-time while in phalanx formation, but they aren't doing any worse than before.

    One thing I did notice is that it's much more dangerous than it was before to disengage a phalanx unit that has its pikes trained on your men. Before making this edit, one could rather quickly and painlessly run away from a phalanx unit... now it's a lot harder; I noticed that even the reasonably well armored and very reliable hoplites, having been fully engaged head-on with standard phalangitai, lost a little more than 1/4 of their number when disengaging (medium battle difficulty, 1 v 1 custom battle).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    I remember in older versions what happened with machimoi, pantodapoi and deuteroi when you turned guard mode off. Phalanxes without guard mode will walk all over the place, break their formation and get murdered, particularly those with less than 7 armour. Feel free to experiment with it.
    Would it be possible to alter the script to make the 'lesser' phalanxes keep guard mode on, but allow the standard and agema phalanxes to disengage it? This way the 'lesser' phalanxes might still be used more defensively by the AI (i.e. "just stand here and hold them off, you'll be fine"), but the better versions might still be able to pack some more punch.
    Last edited by Aleksander the Average; April 24, 2021 at 01:20 PM. Reason: responding to Hellenikon
    . .

  2. #42

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    'fraid not, it's all phalanx units or none of them have Guard Mode on.

  3. #43

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    The great Basileus, Alexandros Megas! Or should I say Aleksander the Average...haha, I'm kinda shedding a tear you'd even consider making a publicly available submod. It seems only a really small portion of EB2 players even care about this facet of a specific type of unit. I seriously believe this will have larger implications on the campaign as a whole, as, well, half the civilized powers of this time period are the Successors to Alexander and Phillip before him. Now the anvil of the Macedonian war-machine is finally realized in full!
    Here you are, my friend

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    'fraid not, it's all phalanx units or none of them have Guard Mode on.
    What a pity. If I could have made the change just for the higher quality phalanxes, it might have really worked out well...
    But alas, it's always like this with CA's engines... some central limitation or other always frustrating modders. Oh well.
    Last edited by Aleksander the Average; April 24, 2021 at 04:22 PM.
    . .

  4. #44

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    'fraid not, it's all phalanx units or none of them have Guard Mode on.
    Would it be possible to make the AI switch guard mode on/off midbattle based on certain conditions?
    If so, then based on how player can turn off guard mode and use the unit effectively.
    - if fighting a cavalry unit = guard mode off.
    - if fighting a lesser quality unit (light infantry, archers, so unarmored chaff) = guard mode off.
    Otherwise keep guard mode always on. There are far more situations where having it on is better for the whole army.

  5. #45

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Hellenikon, I don't know about those older versions, but I have doubts that same problem is going to crop up (I could be wrong through). Remember that battle a few posts back that I kinda documented through pictures on this very thread? Well, I noticed from that and countless other custom battles that TWO possible scenarios (aside from getting flanked or hit in the rear) where a phalanx type unit will suffer heavy casualties due to foolish AI timing and uhh directional sense, BUT will have that problem immediately remedied precisely because guard mode is off. Yes, it is based on a player's point of view, but play with just those units enough times and you can kinda guess what screw ups an ai might fall into.

    First scenario: the INITIAL contact. Players usually know to stop their phalanx about two to three steps before impact to give time for the phalanx to order itself and lower its spears. The ai will probably march right into the face of the foe before bringing their sarissas down, so expect a lot of initial deaths in the front rank. However, once they do get their spears down, their simultaneous sarissa thrusts push those same in-your-face foes AWAY, thus stabilizing the entire battle line.

    Second scenario: when the ai orders their men to march right into and out of enemies they are already in melee with. I seriously don't get why the ai sometimes does this, I noticed it happen with a lot of other infantry types...is it because the ai categorizes them as cavalry that they think they can just break off the fight? Anyways, let's say the ai does this with a phalanx type unit. Even if their phalanx gets interspersed with foes, it moves slow enough that it won't go completely through the enemy ranks (thus becoming completely permeated by enemies) and allow the time needed for the ai to switch to just "right-clicking" the offending barrier (the enemy unit). This creates a strange "kill zone" effect where all those enemies that are in between the phalangite files suddenly get pushed or just outright slain due to all those sarissas (from the back row phalangites that normally don't really get a chance to use them) thrusting at once. Of course in all the time wasted by the ai trying to move the phalanx through the enemy unit, their men are suffering higher casualties than normal; its stupid move doesn't get away scot-free. This "technique" however, becomes outright devastating if utilized by silver or gold level veteran phalangites, and especially by the agema basilikon. They will mow down anything in front of them and are tough enough to come out relatively unscathed after their initial march deep into enemy ranks.

    P.S. For the concerns about turning or pivoting phalanx blocks, thus making awkward gaps in a once straight-ish battle-line, weirdly enough it won't happen as much. Please refer once again to the battle I posted earlier in this thread. You see that leftmost phalanx that routed their opposing enemies and then tried to turn and take the enemies' center? Yeah, the front rankers just do that slightly diagonal stance/half-turn.The rest of the troop stays put. So unless the ai tells their phalanx to completely pull out of the battle line and fully turn...your or the ai's battle line will stay largely intact.

  6. #46

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Question on the mod you made Aleksander...where do the changes apply? Only in historical battles and the main campaign? Or also in custom battles?

  7. #47

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Hi all,


    I stumbled across this video on Youtube a couple of days ago. Some guy managed to make pikes (with a short sword as secondary weapon enabled) and the spear wall formation effective in vanilla Medieval II TW. He also uploaded another video where he "fixed" the halberds + spear wall with the same method. Perhaps his insights could be used for tweaking phalanxes in EB II?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ5cjhCPjP8

    Hope this is helpful!


    Cheers

  8. #48

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Question on the mod you made Aleksander...where do the changes apply? Only in historical battles and the main campaign? Or also in custom battles?
    well... come to think of it, I don't know, but I'm sure one of the Devs can answer this question.
    The one altered file that I included in the mod is an altered campaign script, so the mod definitely alters campaign battles. As I stated in the mod description, if you also want to change historical battles, you have to delete the battle script in each historical battle folder.

    If the campaign script has an effect on custom battles, then yes, the mod should change custom battles too.
    If the campaign script does not have an effect on custom battles, then no, custom battles will be unchanged.
    . .

  9. #49

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksander the Average View Post
    well... come to think of it, I don't know, but I'm sure one of the Devs can answer this question.
    The one altered file that I included in the mod is an altered campaign script, so the mod definitely alters campaign battles. As I stated in the mod description, if you also want to change historical battles, you have to delete the battle script in each historical battle folder.

    If the campaign script has an effect on custom battles, then yes, the mod should change custom battles too.
    If the campaign script does not have an effect on custom battles, then no, custom battles will be unchanged.

    I tried two custom battles - each time fighting with an Agema and three normal phalanxes. To my surprise, the guard mode is off only for the Agema, the standard phalanxes start with guard mode on. (Though granted, I only tried these two types) How could this be the case? As far as I've read, all phalanxes start with guard mode either on or off.

  10. #50

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Sorry for the double post - I forgot to delete any battle_script.txt and I just overwrote the campaign_script.txt. Even so, perhaps this could open the way somehow to have at least the Agema starting with guard mode off?

  11. #51

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    The "fix" shown in the video is just stacking units one of top of another. That is a very awkward player exploit and is well known since many years ago. Sorry but that doesn't help to improve how the AI use the phalangites.

    Guys, custom battles don't mean anything. If you want to test it, play on the campaign multiple battles agaisnt AI armies with phalanxes. Those use the proper AI.

  12. #52

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walkihr View Post
    I tried two custom battles - each time fighting with an Agema and three normal phalanxes. To my surprise, the guard mode is off only for the Agema, the standard phalanxes start with guard mode on. (Though granted, I only tried these two types) How could this be the case? As far as I've read, all phalanxes start with guard mode either on or off.
    Because it was a custom battle, and the agema was your general's unit. Use campaign battles to test how the AI manages with phalanxes.

  13. #53

    Default Re: How to turn off default guard mode for phalangites (USED BY THE AI)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    The "fix" shown in the video is just stacking units one of top of another. That is a very awkward player exploit and is well known since many years ago. Sorry but that doesn't help to improve how the AI use the phalangites.
    Yeah, true, stacking two units together doesn't come naturally to the AI. I wouldn't go as far as to call it an exploit, though. It's more of a workaround to allow a sadly broken unit to do its job as it should to begin with.

    Pike units in defense mode in Medieval II are too passive, they deal too low damage and casualties to whoever engages them frontally and fail at preventing charging units from penetrating its first and second pike rows. I know this is all CA's fault, but I can't help it and feel frustrated by their underperformance...

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