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Thread: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

  1. #81
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Medieval "Gottesurteil" duell between two knights to settle things and entertain the populace is not really christian "Love your next", but very germanic in origin.

    Well the perception that FGM is immoral is more modern than you might think.

    In Europe and the US FGM was a cure against nymphomany ( naturally only the nymphs were a problem , not overly potent men ).
    And when your sleep is haunted in the night
    Girl, don't you dare to seek for candle light
    'Cause in the dark your demons come as carnal dynamite
    Oh, demons of the night come and take her hand
    Oh, demons are a girl's best friend

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  2. #82

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I have read Islamic texts though and nothing there has ever hinted at the practice being recommended, and most Islamic nations do not practice that savagery as far as I



    I cannot help but to think why Islamic authorities have not taken a clear stance against the practice, though. They have done so against pagan infanticide in general and female infanticide specifically. They surely could have worked harder to get rid of FGM, and the fact that they did not raises some questions to an outside observer. Maybe someone more learned in Islamic history and theology could explain why that is the case.
    It is considered good or recommended in Hanafi, Hanbali and Maliki schools and obligatory in the Shafii school (the main Sunni schools). The approval of the practice is taken from several hadith (which some scholars dispute the reliability of). The Shia do not recommend it.
    I have some post in one of these threads laying it out. As the search function here is wub, I'm not going to bother digging it out...
    Last edited by Infidel144; May 27, 2021 at 03:07 PM.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Yet, its only practiced by a fraction of the Muslims in the world.
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  4. #84
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    According to the UN some two hundred million girls have had female circumcision so that's not a few by any standards. I believe those figures were from 2019.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    According to the UN some two hundred million girls have had female circumcision so that's not a few by any standards. I believe those figures were from 2019.
    Are they all Muslims?
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  6. #86
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Are they all Muslims?
    From Wiki I gather that most are.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    What does all this has to do with male infant circumcision?
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Alright various replies and comments...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Axalon, But it's not without consent as the parents give their consent an eight day old boy not being able to.
    Frankly, I don’t care if the parents give a ton of consent in the name of their child – the whole practice strikes me as moronic anyways. It don’t get any less moronic because the parents gave their consent (in the name of the child), as far as I am concerned. It’s a stupid custom altogether, me thinks. And the whole “God commanded” BS-excuse is laughable. Is this Hebrew god really so incompetent that he needs humans to “manually correct” his creation by supposed holy decree - every time a male-child is born – this despite his supposed omnipotence.

    Give me a break…


    -------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I'm not sure how that relates to my question to you. Would you like to explain?
    Nope… Suffice to say, neither your “questions” or remarks (in relation to my posts here) have any credible relevancy or obvious proximity to the topic at hand. Thus they are irrelevant by definition. That said… As usual, I don’t have any interest in discussing anything with you, even on topic. Here or elsewhere (on the forum). I have already expressed this sentiment multiple times elsewhere - explicitly - and that circumstance have not changed somehow. And you have disregarded that reality - yet again.


    ------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    So it's not an islamic tradition.
    Well, that is just wishful thinking… The reality is that Islam is the single most obvious movement/force linked to FGM on the planet, existing today. Nothing else comes even close. FGM is basically still around because of Islam. This is the only major movement/force that still clearly propagate and practice it to significant extents somehow – this, in what appears to be the majority of the existing Islamic states across the globe. Even Islam’s prophet has expressed support for it (in the Hadiths). And as well all know - Mohammed can never do or be wrong – so, most Muslims will play along as otherwise they will outright question the prophets supposed statements and that is (obviously) unacceptable within the framework of Islam. That’s that…

    The current UNICEF global estimation is thus far 200+ million females, at least, who have suffered FGM. A significant majority of these will be identified as Muslims somehow. Indonesia alone (the most populous Islamic state in the world) has some 55+ million Muslim females cut and sliced. That’s means that more then a quarter of the UNICEF global estimate, are found in a singular Muslim country. Another 9-10 million are found in Malaysia, also a primarily Islamic country – what a surprise. We will also find millions of others in Somalia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Egypt, Mali and Mauritania (and the list goes on) – all these states are dominated by Islam and its doctrines. What a coincidence… Who could have thought?

    In light of all this - to actually claim - that this is not an Islamic tradition or part of Islam is both dishonest and severely misleading. It is clearly a part of Islam for sure, and we can find millions upon millions of walking, talking and breathing examples/evidence of that fact all over the Islamic world. However, it is not a universal Islamic tradition and practice - and it is not practiced and supported by ALL Muslims everywhere. That much is clear. Still there are more Islam-supremacy states that do practice it somehow, then not. At least, thus far… Here are some useful maps that illustrate/highlight all these things…





    I think these maps leaves little doubt about Islam and FGM, the two clearly go together somehow, and that to significant extents. Note that in the grey areas there is no data available…


    ---------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    I have some post in one of these threads laying it out. As the search function here is wub, I'm not going to bother digging it out...
    Well, I would definitely read it if you did, I'm probably not be the only one too… Please?

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  9. #89
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    As i have already shown, FGM has already existed a very long time before Islam was established. Interestingly FGM is also practiced in Aethiopia, a country with an old christian majority. So claims it is related to Islam, are absolutely dishonest.

    But as seen in the past the Far Right/the Neonazis is/are using every lie to spread their hate propaganda against Muslims.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; May 28, 2021 at 08:29 AM.
    And when your sleep is haunted in the night
    Girl, don't you dare to seek for candle light
    'Cause in the dark your demons come as carnal dynamite
    Oh, demons of the night come and take her hand
    Oh, demons are a girl's best friend

    POWERWOLF ft. Alissa White-Gluz - Demons Are A Girl's Best Friend


  10. #90
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Axalon's data is correct FGM is practiced only in islamic countries or countries with an extensive islamic minority. Historically it did not have a presence anywhere on the planet prior to the rise of islam as FGM was specifically created by islam as a female equivalency to MGM (circumcision specifically.)

    That being said even today FGM is nowhere as dangerous to the person or as prevalent as MGM and I really have no idea why we are mentioning it here. It's like talking about shark attack victims in a thread about victims of terrorism.
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  11. #91

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    From Wiki I gather that most are.
    About 27 million of them alone comes from Nigerian Christians. So, I'm not sure about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Nope… Suffice to say, neither your “questions” or remarks (in relation to my posts here) have any credible relevancy or obvious proximity to the topic at hand. Thus they are irrelevant by definition. That said… As usual, I don’t have any interest in discussing anything with you, even on topic. Here or elsewhere (on the forum). I have already expressed this sentiment multiple times elsewhere - explicitly - and that circumstance have not changed somehow. And you have disregarded that reality - yet again.
    You practically used more words to not answer me compared to how many words my initial question demanded. Well done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Axalon's data is correct FGM is practiced only in islamic countries or countries with an extensive islamic minority. Historically it did not have a presence anywhere on the planet prior to the rise of islam as FGM was specifically created by islam as a female equivalency to MGM (circumcision specifically.)

    That being said even today FGM is nowhere as dangerous to the person or as prevalent as MGM and I really have no idea why we are mentioning it here. It's like talking about shark attack victims in a thread about victims of terrorism.
    This got to be one of the most ignorant posts in TWC history. As you're making a material claim we can't simply classify this as not knowing the subject you're touching on. FGM precedes Islam for sure with some ties to ancient Egypt which makes it even precede Christianity and Judaism. The danger that an FGM poses dwarfs the worst kind of circumcision practiced today. How could you be so wrong?
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  12. #92

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    If infant male circumcision is inherently abusive, doesn't that mean Mary and Joseph abused Jesus by having him circumcised?
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  13. #93
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Axalon's data is correct FGM is practiced only in islamic countries or countries with an extensive islamic minority. Historically it did not have a presence anywhere on the planet prior to the rise of islam as FGM was specifically created by islam as a female equivalency to MGM (circumcision specifically.)

    That being said even today FGM is nowhere as dangerous to the person or as prevalent as MGM and I really have no idea why we are mentioning it here. It's like talking about shark attack victims in a thread about victims of terrorism.
    Wow, this has got to be one of the worst, most ignorant posts ever to appear on TWC.

    We need something like POTF except for stupid posts.

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  14. #94

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    As i have already shown, FGM has already existed a very long time before Islam was established. Interestingly FGM is also practiced in Aethiopia, a country with an old christian majority. So claims it is related to Islam, are absolutely dishonest.

    But as seen in the past the Far Right/the Neonazis is/are using every lie to spread their hate propaganda against Muslims.
    FGM did not originate with Islam, but Islam did encourage the practice of FGM and brought the practice to regions where it had not been practiced before.

    Sharia advocates many things that go against western standards. Sharia advocates death to those who leave the Islamic religion.

    The because many feel FGM is an Islamic religious duty, it is much harder to stop the practice than if it were just a current medical fad or merely a local custom. As people leave their local areas, they tend to give up local customs, but religion endures.

    In the thousands of cases in the West, FGM is practiced exclusively among Muslims because it is an Islamic religious requirement for many Muslims.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    About 27 million of them alone comes from Nigerian Christians. So, I'm not sure about that.




    You practically used more words to not answer me compared to how many words my initial question demanded. Well done.




    This got to be one of the most ignorant posts in TWC history. As you're making a material claim we can't simply classify this as not knowing the subject you're touching on. FGM precedes Islam for sure with some ties to ancient Egypt which makes it even precede Christianity and Judaism. The danger that an FGM poses dwarfs the worst kind of circumcision practiced today. How could you be so wrong?
    Among Christian groups, FGM is practiced as a local custom often in opposition of Christoan religious authorities. Christian Nigerian immigrants to western countries do not practice FGM. In contrast FGM is seen in many cases as a religious duty, and is often supported by Islamic religious authorities, and many Muslim immigrants continue to practice it. The fact that some schools of Sharia require FGM makes it an Islamic religious practice, if not an universal one.

    It is because FGM is an Islamic religious practice that has made it hard to stop the practice, especially in parts of the world it had not existed before, as in the West.

  16. #96
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Wow, this has got to be one of the worst, most ignorant posts ever to appear on TWC.

    We need something like POTF except for stupid posts.

    Ok, Prove me wrong. Just because "I disagree with it" is not a counter-argument. Even if the practice existed it was so underutilized that mentions of it only appear regularly once islam comes to the fore. Older or no, it's islam who promotes to this day and it's islam who spread it to the world and the vast majority of practitioners are muslims
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  17. #97
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    FGM did not originate with Islam, but Islam did encourage the practice of FGM and brought the practice to regions where it had not been practiced before.
    Not true.

    Gynaecologists in 19th-century Europe and the United States removed the clitoris to treat insanity and .[160] A British doctor, Robert Thomas, suggested clitoridectomy as a cure for nymphomania in 1813.[161] In 1825 The Lancet described a clitoridectomy performed in 1822 in Berlin by Karl Ferdinand von Graefe on a 15-year-old girl who was excessively.[162]

    Isaac Baker Brown, an English gynaecologist, president of the Medical Society of London and co-founder in 1845 of St. Mary's Hospital, believed that , or "unnatural irritation" of the clitoris, caused hysteria, spinal irritation, fits, idiocy, mania and death.[163] He therefore "set to work to remove the clitoris whenever he had the opportunity of doing so", according to his obituary.[159] Brown performed several clitoridectomies between 1859 and 1866.[159] In the United States, J. Marion Sims followed Brown's work and in 1862 slit the neck of a woman's uterus and amputated her clitoris, "for the relief of the nervous or hysterical condition as recommended by Baker Brown".[164] When Brown published his views in On the Curability of Certain Forms of Insanity, Epilepsy, Catalepsy, and Hysteria in Females (1866), doctors in London accused him of quackery and expelled him from the Obstetrical Society.[165]
    Later in the 19th century, A. J. Bloch, a surgeon in New Orleans, removed the clitoris of a two-year-old girl who was reportedly .[166] According to a 1985 paper in the Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey, clitoridectomy was performed in the United States into the 1960s to treat hysteria, erotomania and lesbianism.[167] From the mid-1950s, James C. Burt, a gynaecologist in Dayton, Ohio, performed non-standard repairs of episiotomies after childbirth, adding more stitches to make the vaginal opening smaller. From 1966 until 1989, he performed "love surgery" by cutting women's pubococcygeus muscle, repositioning the vagina and urethra, and removing the clitoral hood, thereby making their genital area more appropriate, in his view, for intercourse in the missionary position.[168] "Women are structurally inadequate for intercourse," he wrote; he said he would turn them into "horny little mice".[169] In the 1960s and 1970s he performed these procedures without consent while repairing episiotomies and performing hysterectomies and other surgery; he said he had performed a variation of them on 4,000 women by 1975.[168] Following complaints, he was required in 1989 to stop practicing medicine in the United States.[170]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female...tion#Antiquity




    Its no religious plight of Islam, as not mentioned in Koran and not common canon between all muslim clerics.

    Claiming the opposite is the usual islamophobic hate propaganda.
    And when your sleep is haunted in the night
    Girl, don't you dare to seek for candle light
    'Cause in the dark your demons come as carnal dynamite
    Oh, demons of the night come and take her hand
    Oh, demons are a girl's best friend

    POWERWOLF ft. Alissa White-Gluz - Demons Are A Girl's Best Friend


  18. #98

    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Ok, Prove me wrong. Just because "I disagree with it" is not a counter-argument. Even if the practice existed it was so underutilized that mentions of it only appear regularly once islam comes to the fore. Older or no, it's islam who promotes to this day and it's islam who spread it to the world and the vast majority of practitioners are muslims
    Nothing proves Islam's role in spreading FGM than the example of Indonesia. FGM is commonly practiced in Indonesia, but only by Muslims - a map of where FGM is practiced in Indonesia is a map of where Muslims live, and when Indonesia tried banning FGM, Indonesia Muslim religious leaders opposed the ban. Circumcision, male or female, was not a local practice in Indonesia until the arrival of Islam in the region. Indonesia is the world's largest Islamic nation.
    Since no one doubts that male circumcision is an Islamic religious practice, the only reason pretending FGM is not as well is dishonest, and is motivated by typical.desire of the Left to lie snd make excuses for Islam, since FGM is viewed more negatively.

    However, you are wrong about male circumcision. Male circumcision is not the same as Female Genital Mutilation, it does not have the same negative consequences. Some doctors still think male circumcision has some medical benefits and even if most don't today, they don't think it is harmful. Most doctors today do think. FGM is harmful and recommend against it. Even when male circumcision was practiced as a regular routine medical procedure in the US even among non Jewish male infsnts, , FGM was never practiced as a regular medical procedure but only as a treatment.

    While male circumcision might not have any real benefits, it does not do any harm, and while the the male infant cannot obviously give consent, it is a much more painful procedure to have performed when a man is old enough to give his consent, so I don't see it wrong to performing it. Most men who have been circumcized do not regret having it done, while many women who have undergone FGM do regret and are angry it was done to them.

  19. #99
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Ok, Prove me wrong. Just because "I disagree with it" is not a counter-argument. Even if the practice existed it was so underutilized that mentions of it only appear regularly once islam comes to the fore. Older or no, it's islam who promotes to this day and it's islam who spread it to the world and the vast majority of practitioners are muslims
    Intentional blatant lie.

    It was widely practicised in Egypt and Kush.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The practice's origins are unknown. Gerry Mackie has suggested that, because FGM's east-west, north-south distribution in Africa meets in Sudan, infibulation may have begun there with the Meroite civilization (c. 800 BCE c. 350 CE), before the rise of Islam, to increase confidence in paternity.[147] According to historian Mary Knight, Spell 1117 (c. 19911786 BCE) of the Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts may refer in hieroglyphs to an uncircumcised girl ('m't):
    a m a
    X1 D53 B1

    The spell was found on the sarcophagus of Sit-hedjhotep, now in the Egyptian Museum, and dates to Egypt's Middle Kingdom.[146][z] (Paul F. O'Rourke argues that 'm't probably refers instead to a menstruating woman.)[148] The proposed circumcision of an Egyptian girl, Tathemis, is also mentioned on a Greek papyrus, from 163 BCE, in the British Museum: "Sometime after this, Nephoris [Tathemis's mother] defrauded me, being anxious that it was time for Tathemis to be circumcised, as is the custom among the Egyptians."[aa]

    The examination of mummies has shown no evidence of FGM. Citing the Australian pathologist Grafton Elliot Smith, who examined hundreds of mummies in the early 20th century, Knight writes that the genital area may resemble Type III because during mummification the skin of the outer labia was pulled toward the anus to cover the pudendal cleft, possibly to prevent sexual violation. It was similarly not possible to determine whether Types I or II had been performed, because soft tissues had deteriorated or been removed by the embalmers.[150]

    The Greek geographer Strabo (c. 64 BCE c. 23 CE) wrote about FGM after visiting Egypt around 25 BCE: "This is one of the customs most zealously pursued by them [the Egyptians]: to raise every child that is born and to circumcise [peritemnein] the males and excise [ektemnein] the females ..."[151][ab][ac] Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE 50 CE) also made reference to it: "the Egyptians by the custom of their country circumcise the marriageable youth and maid in the fourteenth (year) of their age, when the male begins to get seed, and the female to have a menstrual flow."[154] It is mentioned briefly in a work attributed to the Greek physician Galen (129 c. 200 CE): "When [the clitoris] sticks out to a great extent in their young women, Egyptians consider it appropriate to cut it out."[ad] Another Greek physician, Atius of Amida (mid-5th to mid-6th century CE), offered more detail in book 16 of his Sixteen Books on Medicine, citing the physician Philomenes. The procedure was performed in case the clitoris, or nymph, grew too large or triggered sexual desire when rubbing against clothing. "On this account, it seemed proper to the Egyptians to remove it before it became greatly enlarged," Atius wrote, "especially at that time when the girls were about to be married":

    The surgery is performed in this way: Have the girl sit on a chair while a muscled young man standing behind her places his arms below the girl's thighs. Have him separate and steady her legs and whole body. Standing in front and taking hold of the clitoris with a broad-mouthed forceps in his left hand, the surgeon stretches it outward, while with the right hand, he cuts it off at the point next to the pincers of the forceps. It is proper to let a length remain from that cut off, about the size of the membrane that's between the nostrils, so as to take away the excess material only; as I have said, the part to be removed is at that point just above the pincers of the forceps. Because the clitoris is a skinlike structure and stretches out excessively, do not cut off too much, as a urinary fistula may result from cutting such large growths too deeply.[156]

    The genital area was then cleaned with a sponge, frankincense powder and wine or cold water, and wrapped in linen bandages dipped in vinegar, until the seventh day when calamine, rose petals, date pits, or a "genital powder made from baked clay" might be applied.[157]

    Whatever the practice's origins, infibulation became linked to slavery. Mackie cites the Portuguese missionary Joo dos Santos, who in 1609 wrote of a group near Mogadishu who had a "custome to sew up their Females, especially their slaves being young to make them unable for conception, which makes these slaves sell dearer, both for their chastitie, and for better confidence which their Masters put in them". Thus, Mackie argues, a "practice associated with shameful female slavery came to stand for honor".[158]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female...tion#Antiquity
    And when your sleep is haunted in the night
    Girl, don't you dare to seek for candle light
    'Cause in the dark your demons come as carnal dynamite
    Oh, demons of the night come and take her hand
    Oh, demons are a girl's best friend

    POWERWOLF ft. Alissa White-Gluz - Demons Are A Girl's Best Friend


  20. #100
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    Default Re: Infant Male Circumcision is Genital Mutilation without Consent

    We seem to be forgetting Circumcised penises are better looking and provide more pleasure to others. Cleaner too.

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