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Thread: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

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    Douchebag's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    So, I'm writing a scifi story and I was wondering if anyone here know anything about future timelines? They say that if u travel to the future there are multiple probable timelines you can move into. Any time travel geeks here who are willing to chim in?
    Questions I have:
    1. If ur from the future, let's say timeline 5, and u want to change the past, would u move to the present timeline to change the future? Or would I have to move to the past to change the future? And if you do change the past would that affect timeline 5 directly or would that create another timeline?

    2. If there are 7 universes would each universe have their own future timelines or would all 7 universes have the exact timelines they can move into? For example, each universe has there own goals and agendas so they would each have different timelines to move into.

    Any help is appreciated.

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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    You might be interested in the many worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics. John Scalzi kind-of uses the infinite universes concept as the basis for faster than light travel in his Old man's war series of novels. With a little gymnastics, you could also use it as the basis for time travel of a sort.

    Issac Arthur would be a good place to start looking for some real physics backing for your story plots.
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    lol I actually believe that the very purpose of writing a scifi story is to give our own answers to those questions

    however, I suggest you to read also about multiverse, as well as about relativity and the four dimensional space

    that's enough there to keep you busy reading for all your life
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    Douchebag's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Actually I was hoping someone who watched dr.who can respond. As I have a severe case of add I have a hard time reading :p

    I heard dr.who has a lot of time traveling, and it's somewhat realistic.

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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Havent watched Dr. Who, so cant say what you mean.

    But the most "realistic" space travel is the idea that you cant really change anything, because it has all already happened. The past influences the future and vice versa. Everything is happening now, the moment you change something, it means it has always been changed.

    If you want to travel back from the future to fix the past, it doesnt work well. Because if you fixed it, then there would have been no reason for you to travel back from the future to fix it, its somewhat a paradox.

    Hence why most of the shows that delve into time travel really deep (12 monkeys, Dark) use the idea of "cycles"

    For 2., not entirely sure what do you mean, it gets super confusing when one adds new universes. If you accept the idea that there are numerous universes, then it must mean there is in infinite amount of universes, for every possible action, decision, and so on. So you could really pick from them any you like...
    Last edited by Jadli; March 19, 2021 at 03:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Time travel generally s up plot lines. The entire Dr. Who timeline looks like the London subway plan, just temporal.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    There is no really consistent implementation of time travel in narratives that I know of. You always get the weird past-present feedback look of interactions (and your future-present example is just the same, shifted by a time interval). The most logical thing I've read so far about time travels is that the feedback loop of changing the past which changes the present (from which you started, which in turn changes how or even whether you travelled to the past or even just existed which again changes the past and so on and on...), anyway, that this feedback loops iterates until it converges towards a stable state which becomes the new reality.

    However, a converging sequence of instantaneous temporal feedback loops is not a good basis for a narrative, so I'd recommend cooking up something that is at least intrinsically consistent. Don't hesitate to just invent some pseudo-science to fill holes left in your custom theory of time travel - any sufficiently adavanced technology is indiscernible from magic anyhow.
    Last edited by Iskar; March 19, 2021 at 03:54 PM.
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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Douchebag View Post
    Actually I was hoping someone who watched dr.who can respond. As I have a severe case of add I have a hard time reading :p

    I heard dr.who has a lot of time traveling, and it's somewhat realistic.
    Then like I said.. Isaac Arthur is your friend - I linked you to Youtube, where his videos discuss time travel in virtually every aspect, including Dr Who.

    Try here for a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-37PLt7n7A then carry on.

    He's a consultant for Sci Fi novelists whom use his assistance to add real science to their story plots.
    Last edited by antaeus; March 20, 2021 at 06:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Going back in time is not only incomprehensible, illogical and a sucky literary device, but it is theoretically impossible. There is no "back" in time, and the past does exist as a place where one could visit and come back. Traveling forward in time is theoretically possible in the sense that the passage of time can slow down at least when a person is moving very fast.

    EDIT: A notable exception to the rule are Finnish public servants. When they end their working day at 4 pm, they usually manage to get home by 3 pm.
    Last edited by Septentrionalis; March 20, 2021 at 07:26 AM.

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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Time is a dimension like any other. We experience time linearly because the gravitational field produced by the atoms in our body push us forward in time in a similar manner to how inertia functions. Because it is similar to inertia you cannot cancel it for yourself but you can most certainly change overall direction relative to an outside observer and thus travel back or forward in time, just not your time. If you were to travel back in time for you time would still be a linear succession of events.

    Moreover the people you left behind would still experience time as an immutable succession of events. This means that if you go back in time to kill Hitler, you're not killing the Hitler of your time you're killing another Hitler from a different timeline in which you are now stuck while your own timeline continues on as normal with the exception that you suddenly went missing and nobody can find you since you cannot return to your own timeline anymore unless you prevent yourself from changing the timeline in the first place. Imagine a road that only allows you to switch lanes in one direction.


    I do agree that time travel is generally lazy writing.
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Time is a dimension like any other. We experience time linearly because the gravitational field produced by the atoms in our body push us forward in time in a similar manner to how inertia functions. Because it is similar to inertia you cannot cancel it for yourself but you can most certainly change overall direction relative to an outside observer and thus travel back or forward in time, just not your time. If you were to travel back in time for you time would still be a linear succession of events.
    I have to contradict this on a couple accounts.

    Time is different from the spatial dimensions in as much as the metric tensor on the Einstein manifold we call reality treats it differently: Its sign is reversed with respect to the other dimensions (usually -1 for the spatial ones and +1 for time). This may sound technical but is closely linked to the speed of light being the upper limit of speeds: Going faster in space corresponds to going slower in time up to the point where at the speed of light no time passes whatsoever for that hypothetical observer relative to other observers. (Remember that time only makes sense as the Eigenzeit of a specific observer in relativity, there being no absolute time as in Newtonian physics.)

    Furthermore, the linear experience of time on the subjective level is linked more closely to thermodynamics and psychology than to relativity. The future is where the entropy is larger and we experience this by sequences of different perceptions. Since relativity is far off the energy scale that human perception is calibrated to it rarely if ever has any direct connection to our basic experiences of time and space.

    Finally "changing direction" is a bit of a false friend here. The spatial metaphor draws its seeming self-evidence from direction changes in 2D or 3D space where you can change direction without changing speed, merely by turning. Changing direction in 1D time, however, requires the change of your speed on the time axis. As I said above, you can lower your speed in time by going faster in space (relative to other observers, as always), but since the speed of light is the limit (at least for macroscopic objects as far as we know) you cannot reverse the sign of your speed on the time axis (vulgo: go back in time relative to others). Your Eigenzeit will of course still move on at uniform speed, so the "best" you could achieve is moving forward more slowly in time than other observers (relative to them), but since all interaction happens at no more than the speed of light there can again be no interaction between you and anyone's past. (Where the "past" in relativistic terms is a 4D cone of those events that can reach you with a straight ray of light, and "straight" being a bit wobbly here, because the space it is straight in is curved, so the cone may not look exactly like you first imagined.)
    Last edited by Iskar; March 22, 2021 at 05:12 PM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I have to contradict this on a couple accounts.

    Time is different from the spatial dimensions in as much as the metric tensor on the Einstein manifold we call reality treats it differently: Its sign is reversed with respect to the other dimensions (usually -1 for the spatial ones and +1 for time). This may sound technical but is closely linked to the speed of light being the upper limit of speeds: Going faster in space corresponds to going slower in time up to the point where at the speed of light no time passes whatsoever for that hypothetical observer relative to other observers. (Remember that time only makes sense as the Eigenzeit of a specific observer in relativity, there being no absolute time as in Newtonian physics.)

    Furthermore, the linear experience of time on the subjective level is linked more closely to thermodynamics and psychology than to relativity. The future is where the entropy is larger and we experience this by sequences of different perceptions. Since relativity is far off the energy scale that human perception is calibrated to it rarely if ever has any direct connection to our basic experiences of time and space.

    And yet relativity and the 2nd law of thermodynamics do not forbid changing the sign / reverting entropy, they just place an immense hurdle in front of you. Thermodynamics openly allows you to unscramble a scrambled egg if you apply sufficient energy - with the caveat that sufficient means exponentially more than what you used to scramble the egg.

    We already have had semi-succesfull experiments on this front, even if the results were incredibly minuscule. But quantum research is still in its embryonic phase.
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    The total entropy in the you-scrambled egg-eggunscambling apparatus system is still going to increase. The second law applies to closed systems and the scrambled egg affected by the unscrambling apparatus is not a closed system.

    Quantum effects are an entirely different thing, because on a quantum level time really seems to be just another dimension to move through, but none of those apply to macroscopic observes attempting to do timetravel.
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    I would also like to challenge taking the human psychological notion of forward and back at face value. Our conceptualization of the world relies on deictic notions such as here, there, forward, back, etc. Those are very relative notions that help us understand our own situation in relation to the world around us. We go to work in the morning and, after our day is done, go back home. Without this psychological construct, we are moving forward towards our workplace and then forward towards our home.

    I find it hard to accept that there would be any kind of movement that would not be movement forward, and we should not extend those human notions into time. Wouldn't reversing time by some kind of fanciful time-travel mechanism essentially mean making already happened things unhappen? At any rate, accepting the idea that we could create timelines sounds an awful lot like believing that we can create parallel universes, which makes no sense whatsoever.
    Last edited by Septentrionalis; March 25, 2021 at 12:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    The only way this and other concepts work for me is divine intervention by a universe 'administrator', sentient or automatic. From there an analogy to computers where the 'session' can be duplicated, modified, reversed, subject to rules, etc. It is like running a virtual machine on top of reality and doesn't answer any questions, but I suppose it's plausible enough to those living inside it and gives you agency towards whatever logic you can sell yourself with.

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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Going back in time is not only incomprehensible, illogical and a sucky literary device, but it is theoretically impossible. There is no "back" in time, and the past does exist as a place where one could visit and come back. Traveling forward in time is theoretically possible in the sense that the passage of time can slow down at least when a person is moving very fast.

    EDIT: A notable exception to the rule are Finnish public servants. When they end their working day at 4 pm, they usually manage to get home by 3 pm.
    Yes well if you want to be that way you can more or less say the same about almost every sci fi and fantasy story. I assume the intent here is not just to right a current summary of current CW theory on time and relativity and what not. The past did exist develop a good reason why you can go there and seems fine to me. I would say going forward is more tricky. Because unlike the know past when you leave the future would be uncertainty from a character's perspective. Do you stalk out of movie with artificial gravity that is not mathematically explained?

    Wouldn't reversing time by some kind of fanciful time-travel mechanism essentially mean making already happened things unhappen?
    That would be part of the fun of the story now would it not be or you go split time lines and multi verse stuff. I do recall a series where an author tried no time stream stuff. The conceit was that while protagonist was thrown 90,000 (?) years in the future. The group attempting fix loosing a war he worked with was only based some centuries in the past (of the far future that is) and trying over and over again to try save their nation. So it ended being a bit more noir. What they did was rippining back and changing everyone but him (being so far from the past none of the alterations affected the main character) so people would disappear and nobody could renumber them etc at the extreme when got back to the time travel base. It was pretty solid but got progressively more messy and in the end abandoned by the author.
    Last edited by conon394; March 26, 2021 at 01:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    I've been going through my somewhat rusty understanding of relativity again given the occasion and started to draw Minkowski diagrams to get my thoughts in order. Since I think they are actually quite helpful in understanding what "time travel" in the context of relativity actually means, I jotted them down digitally and added a bit of an introduction for those unfamiliar with them:

    Minkowski diagrams are a standard way of depicting what happens in special relativity. "Special" meaning we're not dealing with the crazy of curved space yet, just the speed of light as a finite upper limit (including for the transmission of information).
    This is a basic Minkowski diagram, as of yet unpopulated:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    In order to make things representable we restrict ourselves to one space dimension, so what you see before you is not a spatial plane, but a one dimensional space (a line) and a time axis forming a flat 2D spacetime. Usually one chooses the units on the two axes such that the speed of light corresponds to one space unit per time unit, i.e. light emitted from the origin of this diagram moves on the yellow dotted lines towards the future.
    Since the yellow dotted lines represent the speed of light (remember, this is a space-by-time diagram), they form two cones with respect to the origin. The upper one is called the future cone, containing all events (points in spacetime) that you could causally influence from the origin. The lower one is called the past cone, containing all events that could causally influence the observer sitting in the origin.
    The past and future cones together only make up half of the diagram. Why? The rest is called the elsewhere (incidentally also the place where Khajiit live), and consists of those space-time coordinates that you can never reach and that can not influence you currently: You might be able to reach the space-coordinate at some time, but not at the time corresponding to these specific points in spacetime.

    Now, we populate this flat 1Dx1D world. Here is an unmoving observer sitting in the origin:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The arrow does not indicate movement in space in this case (the space coordinate does not change), but simply the passage of time. These curves showing which point in space is passed by an observer at which point in time are called worldlines.
    If you start moving around, they will look like this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The observer in our example is moving at half the speed of light, they are making one unit of space in two units of time. This example also allows us to demonstrate the concept of time dilation: Say you left a clock sitting at rest at the origin and then take off at half the speed of light. After you have travelled one space unit (taking two units of your Eigenzeit) you take a look back at the clock sitting in the origin. Naively (or newtonially) one would depict "looking back at the origin" by the black dotted line. However, since "looking" means you have to receive light rays reflected of the clock in your eyes, we may not draw a horizontal line from you to the vertical line representing the origin in the passage of time, we have to draw a 45° angled light ray back to the origin. Now this light ray meets the origin at the event (0 space units, 1 time unit), which means the time you are seeing on that clock in the origin is 1, not 2 as on your own watch. That means that from your perspective time at the origin is advancing more slowly than with you.
    This is the first effect on the passage of time one has to consider: Since measurement of time at different spacetime points involves the transmission of information, which happens at most at the speed of light, movement changes what time coordinates we measure for distant points in space.

    Now a common talking point is that going faster than light means going back in time. Let us make that precise, as it will turn out that what you get from superluminal speeds is pretty far from a naive "turning up in your own past" DeLorean-style. Here is the worldline of a hypothetical observer that somehow managed to go at double the speed of light:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    If we apply the same principle as above for reading off the time at the origin (we left a clock there again), we see that the time at the origin seems to be -1, so indeed it seems like we travelled back in time with respect to the origin. However, your Eigenzeit ("own-time") still progressed by one unit to 1. Furthermore, since we left the origin, we cannot influence its past in any way anyhow (our own future light cone still only contains future points of the origin). The only thing we have achieved so far is that while looking back at the origing it looks like time at the origin is going backwards (i.e. we receive earlier and earlier light signals emitted by the resting clock).

    Frustrated by this ineffective method of "time travel" we decide to turn around and travel back to the origin at double the speed of light, which looks like this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Now something funny happens: Suppose we left a farewell/welcoming party committee at the origin and they are looking at us to see when we turn around, so they can prepare the party. They are in for a surprise: We arrive back at the origin way before they even see us turning around. Why? The event of us turning around (a) emits a ray of light travelling towards the origin at the speed of light. But since we travel at double that speed the events of us passing Alpha Centauri (b) and the Kuyper Belt (c) emit rays of light that arrive even earlier at the origin. In toto, seen from the origin our journey back seems to be entirely backwards: First we arrive completely unforeseen (literally) at time 2, then they see us moving backwards via c, b, a to the point of turning around on our superluminal voyage - all the while we're standing next to them on earth! The only "causal" stunt you could pull here is shooting a laser cannon at one of your friends from (a), then travel back to earth, and comfortably wait until it arrives one time unit later to either heroically save your friend or murder them with the perfect alibi - but that's just (slightly psychopathic) cosmic one-man-runaround ping pong, not actual time travel.

    So, superluminal speeds make the succession of time measured between observers moving relative to each other somewhat awkward, but doesn't really create time travel opportunities.

    There is one interesting effect of superluminal speed though: It changes what events are contained in your past and future cones in a weird way. Here's ordinary, sublight travel:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    You move at half the speed of light from the origin along the arrow representing your worldline. When you arrive, the green dotted lines represent your new future and past cones. Notice that the new future cones is always contained in any older future cone (e.g. the yellow one from sitting in the origin earlier), and that the new past cone containes all older past cones. In other words, the passage of time narrows down what you can potentially influence in the future, while it adds new events that can potentially influence you.
    Now this only holds for sublight speeds. Here's the same diagram for travelling at twice the speed of light:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Notice how the green future cone is no longer contained in the yellow one, and the green past cone no longer contains the entirety of its yellow counterpart. In particular the blue area used to be part of your past, but is no longer, while the orange area used to be in your "elsewhere" and has now become part of your future. Caution, though: "Past" and "Future" do not mean sections of your worldline here, but the cones of events that can potentially influence you/that you can potentially influence.

    So far for special relativity in a flat spacetime. Of course things are more complicated in general relativity (of which special relativity is a linear approximation for small areas of low energy/mass if you will), and spacetime itself being curved could, at least, theoretically create settings where you can actually have loops in your worldline (vulgo: arrive in your own, actual, past, and say hello to yourself like Spock). This can only happen, though, if spacetime is topologically non-trivial, i.e. if it "has holes" like a donut:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    In the example above our 2D spacetime is curved and sports a kind of handle-like structure in addition to the mostly flat part. If you ignore the "entrance" or "exit" of the handle you can just move around ordinarily in spacetime (1), but if you "travel" through the handle (remember, one of the dimensions is time!) you could end up with a loop in your worldline (2). However, this kind of topological structure is highly unlikely and/or requires immense amounts of mass/energy to maintain. Some used to posit that black holes could create the ruptures in spacetime that are the "entrance" and "exit" in the image above (and then only need to "link up" to create such a "wormhole"), but Hawking and Penrose have shown that Quantum effects prohibit black holes from actually reaching infinite curvature at the centre, so it is unlikely spacetime actually "rips".

    In toto, this is crazy, but doesn't really provide us with means for time travelling in the more common sense. For anyone interested in further reading I can recommend Richard Gott, "Time travel in Einstein' universe".
    Last edited by Iskar; March 27, 2021 at 01:33 PM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    The total entropy in the you-scrambled egg-eggunscambling apparatus system is still going to increase. The second law applies to closed systems and the scrambled egg affected by the unscrambling apparatus is not a closed system.

    Quantum effects are an entirely different thing, because on a quantum level time really seems to be just another dimension to move through, but none of those apply to macroscopic observes attempting to do timetravel.
    Actually so far the theory does not say it doesn't apply, we just don't know how.

    Why is the egg not a closed system.
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    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    The egg-unscrambling apparatus is transferring energy onto the scrambled egg. Hence it is not an an energetically closed system and the second law does not apply to it separate from the unscrambling apparatus.

    So far we have not observed quantum effects that survive a semi-classical limit to my knowledge. Of course it is always "up till now", but that is always the case with science.
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    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  19. #19
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Nice work with the Minkowski diagrams. Greg Benford did a cool exposition of what the discovery of tachyons might entail, where it might be possible to send signals instantaneously to Earth, knowing what the relative position of the planet was at a particular point in time. I think it's called "Timescape".

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Anyone here know anything about timelines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Douchebag View Post
    So, I'm writing a scifi story and I was wondering if anyone here know anything about future timelines? They say that if u travel to the future there are multiple probable timelines you can move into. Any time travel geeks here who are willing to chim in?
    Questions I have:
    1. If ur from the future, let's say timeline 5, and u want to change the past, would u move to the present timeline to change the future? Or would I have to move to the past to change the future? And if you do change the past would that affect timeline 5 directly or would that create another timeline?

    2. If there are 7 universes would each universe have their own future timelines or would all 7 universes have the exact timelines they can move into? For example, each universe has there own goals and agendas so they would each have different timelines to move into.

    Any help is appreciated.
    There are no wrong answers. I personally think that time is an oscillation between two points of existence. There is no past or future, only the next moment. In that case, only way to move in time is to fast forward or rewind the entire universe.

    There are a number of sci-fi takes on how time works. Some, like in Doctor Who depends on one single strain. There are no alternatives as far as I can understand. When you change the past the future changes with it, no alternatives.

    In Endgame, however, when you change the past in a major way you create alternative timelines, offshoots that we don't know fully how it works yet. That's why they returned the stones to exact moments they were stolen to eliminate the alternative timelines. I think they also bank on the idea that creating alternative timelines is troublesome for all of them.

    When you have multiple universes you could have different laws for each or have them all follow the same laws of nature. You decide.


    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Time travel generally s up plot lines. The entire Dr. Who timeline looks like the London subway plan, just temporal.
    It really takes a special kind of intellect to comprehend all of that and make a chart of it. Amazing.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; April 12, 2021 at 04:51 PM.
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