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Thread: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

  1. #1

    Icon1 Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    Firstly I apologize if this isn't posted in the right area, I'm still relatively new to the site.

    As a very avid enthusiast of Greek arms/armor, warfare and developments thereof from the Classical to Hellenistic period, I find the developments throughout the period covered in EB(II) very interesting.

    Specifically, what I'm wondering is what sources this beloved mod's historians have for the panoply of Grecian thureos-wielding troops' including javelins alongside their main weapons. Within relevant historical discussion groups on social media I see specifically the thureophoroi as mentioned having been primarily spearmen ( https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BT9BCM/pai...cal-BT9BCM.jpg ), and machairaphoroi being swordsmen ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...oi_CROPPED.jpg , https://image2.slideserve.com/4027039/slide10-l.jpg ). I have not seen any mention of them being outfitted with javelins additionally to their primary weapons.

    What I'm seeing passed around as relatively common interpretations are that they were either armed with javelins and used as skirmishers, or armed with spears and armed as spearmen, who could potentially form a slightly-less-reliable phalanx with their thureos shields. But not both.

    Where does this come from? Any relevant books/studies you would recommend? Thank you in advance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    The first thing to note is how arbitrary the titles are. Two youths engaged in the "thureos with machaira" hoplomachy (a competitive event that became increasingly popular in the Hellenistic era) aren't necessarily "machairophoroi". Salmas of Adada, the first reference you linked, is probably to be classified as a thorakites, not a thureophoros, because of his armor, although without knowing which regiments they were assigned to and those regiments full names we can't really know. Many of the Sidon stele show, unsurprisingly, a mixture of weapons among men who were almost certainly in the same regiment. Most thureophoroi probably had a spear and a sword, as in the stele of Hekataios. The stele of Kartadis seems to show a javelin and a sword.

    Anyway, judging panoplies by a few stelai is rather difficult. The images are of course selective. Some warrior images form stelai show no weapons at all, some show a lot of weapons (a stele from Pantikapaion shows a thureos, bow and quiver, looped javelin, and longsword, a dizzying "panoply" that may depict not what the horseman always carried but what he might carry in different occasions. But we do have depictions of thureos-equipped soldiers with javelins, like Dionysios the Bithynian from Alexandria, whose panoply included at least a thrusting spear and two javelins (probably a sword, too). A good bit of late Hellenistic-early Roman Bosporan evidence shows javelins + spears or javelins + swords. The Nilotic combat scene from some painting fragments in Toronto also seems to show a mixture of javelins + spears + swords, and so on.

    Then there's the account of the Achaian army reforms in Plutarch's Philopoemen 9, which emphasized the use of javelins ("small spears") by the thureophoroi of the Achaean army, who had committed themselves to peltastike discipline since the Late Classical era, but re-equipped with thureoi in the 3rd century while retaining the multi-use small spears and the tactics. Of course Polybius' account of Caphyae suggests the extent of Philopoemen's reform was not so all-encompassing, or at least that the Achaean infantry included three types of thureophoroi, from euzonoi to thorakitai, and at least some of these carried javelins.

    So the truth is there is a decent bit of evidence for javelins usage by men carrying thureoi. The exact lines between thureophoroi, thorakitai, euzonoi, etc. are a lot fuzzier than we can make them in a game, and the panoplies men might carry day to day more flexible than we can really show. Hope that helps.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulus View Post
    The first thing to note is how arbitrary the titles are. Two youths engaged in the "thureos with machaira" hoplomachy (a competitive event that became increasingly popular in the Hellenistic era) aren't necessarily "machairophoroi". Salmas of Adada, the first reference you linked, is probably to be classified as a thorakites, not a thureophoros, because of his armor, although without knowing which regiments they were assigned to and those regiments full names we can't really know. Many of the Sidon stele show, unsurprisingly, a mixture of weapons among men who were almost certainly in the same regiment. Most thureophoroi probably had a spear and a sword, as in the stele of Hekataios. The stele of Kartadis seems to show a javelin and a sword.

    Anyway, judging panoplies by a few stelai is rather difficult. The images are of course selective. Some warrior images form stelai show no weapons at all, some show a lot of weapons (a stele from Pantikapaion shows a thureos, bow and quiver, looped javelin, and longsword, a dizzying "panoply" that may depict not what the horseman always carried but what he might carry in different occasions. But we do have depictions of thureos-equipped soldiers with javelins, like Dionysios the Bithynian from Alexandria, whose panoply included at least a thrusting spear and two javelins (probably a sword, too). A good bit of late Hellenistic-early Roman Bosporan evidence shows javelins + spears or javelins + swords. The Nilotic combat scene from some painting fragments in Toronto also seems to show a mixture of javelins + spears + swords, and so on.

    Then there's the account of the Achaian army reforms in Plutarch's Philopoemen 9, which emphasized the use of javelins ("small spears") by the thureophoroi of the Achaean army, who had committed themselves to peltastike discipline since the Late Classical era, but re-equipped with thureoi in the 3rd century while retaining the multi-use small spears and the tactics. Of course Polybius' account of Caphyae suggests the extent of Philopoemen's reform was not so all-encompassing, or at least that the Achaean infantry included three types of thureophoroi, from euzonoi to thorakitai, and at least some of these carried javelins.

    So the truth is there is a decent bit of evidence for javelins usage by men carrying thureoi. The exact lines between thureophoroi, thorakitai, euzonoi, etc. are a lot fuzzier than we can make them in a game, and the panoplies men might carry day to day more flexible than we can really show. Hope that helps.

    Oh of course, to be perfectly clear the images I showed above aren't at all intended to be evidence of particular 'unit types' or specific panoplia, but rather (some of the few I know) images of soldiers, (or ephebes, I guess!) equipped with one primary weapon or the other.

    I think I can definitely get behind giving various units javelins who at some point were equipped with them, but may not always have been. Especially since from what I've read the thureophoroi were at times equipped essentially to skirmish, as stated above.

    Might you, by chance, have any sort of links to the relevant depictions of Dionysios' panoply, or of the Nilotic combat scene aforementioned? Though if not, these references themselves are a pretty decent place for me to do further research on, (I know there's at least one book on this subject which I can't yet afford), so I appreciate it.

    The blurred lines are definitely something I get a sense for when I read the descriptions. It was actually pretty illuminating when I first started up EBII some years ago to read of the new units, especially ones that seem to be precursors to the thureo-types, like hemithorakitai. It seems a lot of the Greek world started using variations of peltasts as crack troops around this time as well.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    Peltasts as crack troops potentially started with Philip of Makedon, his professional phalangites were dual-trained to act as skirmishers. Which meant he could detail a portion of his main line as much sturdier and more reliable light troops, and they could perform that role in sieges too.

    Alexander made great use of these men, though it doesn't seem like his successors carried on the likely difficult business of maintaining that dual role.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    Wouldn't the ability to throw a javelin or shoot a sling with some skill be pretty common among Hellenistic civilians, whether they have military service or not?
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    Wouldn't the ability to throw a javelin or shoot a sling with some skill be pretty common among Hellenistic civilians, whether they have military service or not?
    Rural folk, yes. You need to hunt in order to eat. City folk, less so.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    In addition to paullus' reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos
    Sorry for the late reply, in the life of Philopoimen IX.1 it is specifically described how the Thureophoroi are better suited to fight at a distance. In general from terracottas, to their deployment as support troops on the flanks, it can also be inferred that they used javelins. Plus overall them and the Makhairophoroi are all Hellenistic evolutions stemming from the Galatian invasions and impact that they had on warfare. Also Ptolemaic stelai, depicting Southern Anatolian men fighting in the Levant as Thureophoroi and Thorakitai show their panoply and overall their style of fighting enters as well in the whole later Hellenistic concept, by Roman writers, of the "imitation" of legionaries...

    There's also for example the stele of Dionysios, a Bithynian serving at Alexandreia, showing him with a spear, but accompanied by an attendant carrying two javelins and the Thureos of his master. So it has been inferred that the melee weapon was the spear, and the preferred weapon, but that javelins could also be used, depending on the tactical needs...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Historical Question regarding panoply of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    In addition to paullus' reply:
    Thank you so much for the response, Quintus. These give me good references to try to research, but I admit I'm looking to see if anyone has the actual imagery above-referenced, or can link me to any sites that have them. Now, I do absolutely appreciate and respect the claims, but I'd rather not place undue weight on second-hand sources. I have read the text from Plutarch referenced on Academic sites several times over, and it's definitely good evidence, though one can interpret translations in various ways. Can interpret 'Long distance' and 'Close quarters' variously. Maybe one can read 'long-distance' as spear length, 'close quarters' as fist, sword and dagger length. The original reading might help, I suppose.

    Thus far I could not find a single image thus described. Maybe 'Googling it' isn't the best option, but I'm not sure what else to do. Nevertheless, thank you for the response.

  9. #9

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