Baktrian Poleis and colonists

**rhavviepoodle** · April 12, 2021, 11:11 AM

Started up a campaign as Baktria, which I've always rather enjoyed. You can acquire up to 4 colonists from the Seleukids from missions, making them a very valuable resource. However, I'm getting a bit frustrated with some of the opaque mechanics.

I remember in older versions you could bootstrap your way into a proper settler economy by building Katoikia Poleon and pushing culture so that you can upgrade the Polis into a Metropolis. That said, I'm very confused about how this works in 2.35a. I've met all the requirements according to the Player Guide but do not see the option to build Settler Cities.

So I peeked at export_descr_buildings a bit to see if I could figure what's going on. From what I can tell on line 35654, it should indeed be possible to build Settler Cities and Reforms in Baktria, so I have no clue what is blocking me from building it. The only thing left for me to ask is does this option only unlock after you've achieved independence? If there *is* some magical voodoo going on, I'd just like to point out it's not mentioned in the Player Guide, which just adds to my frustration.

I'll include the details of my capital so that you don't have to ask:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I've already tried building Epistateia epi Hellenas, but it didn't help. Tl;dr I can't build Settler Cities, what am I doing wrong? Thanks for lending an ear, I appreciate it.

**QuintusSertorius** · April 12, 2021, 11:23 AM

You can't build the top tier of Hellenistic Colony for the region, until after the Thorakitai Reform.

I say for the region, you can't build the helcol_three in Baktriane, only the helcol_ref.

**rhavviepoodle** · April 12, 2021, 11:38 AM

Practically speaking, does that mean I should be building settler cities in Margianes? The other option would be using the four colonists and influential governors to net myself another two poleis. And to be honest, I kinda wish the geographical limitation on settler cities was mentioned in the Player Guide. Thanks for the heads up, I guess I'll be rebooting the campaign again.

**QuintusSertorius** · April 12, 2021, 12:46 PM

You can still build the Reformed Colonies (which will push rel_h up to 70%), it just means waiting til after turn 222.

**rhavviepoodle** · April 12, 2021, 01:16 PM

Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. I don't know whether y'all have made note of this already, but this information would be very useful in the Player's Guide. In 2.3, colonies were cumulative and the Settler Cities had to be build for the later reforms, meaning it wasn't an either/or situation.

Since my question has been answered, should I delete this thread? I really do appreciate the explanations, QS, thank you kindly.

**QuintusSertorius** · April 12, 2021, 02:18 PM

That's something that got missed in updating the guide.

No need to remove the thread, other people might find it useful, or have other thoughts on colonisation.

**rhavviepoodle** · April 12, 2021, 03:27 PM

On the topic of thoughts on colonization, I think I understand the motive to change from 2.3's way with settler cities. Phalangitai were primarily Makedonian soldiers, and the settlers used in Asia were hellenized Thracians or the like (not Makedonians). So it's definitely reasonable that helcol_two upgrades directly to helcol_ref instead of helcol_three. But it doesn't seem to be working exactly as intended, either.

Assuming they have settlers, Ptolemaoi:

pays 14400 to build settler cities
takes 12 turns to build settler cities
consumes colonists to build settler cities

Meanwhile, Baktria:

must wait til turn 222 to build helcon_ref
pays a mere 2000 to upgrade them from settler towns
takes a single year to upgrade them from settler towns
does not use colonists to upgrade them from settler towns

No matter how I look at it, helcon_ref is intended to be a side-grade from helcon_three (in Memphis, Mysia, Lydia, Thessalia, Seleukeia, and Susa), but it's also intended to be a separate iteration of the cities for places which never realistically would have had Makedonian Phalangitai.

Wouldn't it make more sense for helcon_three to simply not have Phalangitai in places like Asia, then add Thorakitai to it after the reform? Helcon_ref could still exist in places like Memphis and Susa for AS and Ptolemy to opt into the reform. It would make a bit more sense, by my measure.

**QuintusSertorius** · April 12, 2021, 03:44 PM

In all this time, I don't think I looked at the cost/time for the Reformed Colony. At the very least that needs to change.

The change was deliberate though, only the places that historically developed large colonies of Makedonian settlers can build the helcol_three. The helcol_ref is a sort of consolation prize for anyone who really want to build up somewhere outside of those places.

**rhavviepoodle** · April 12, 2021, 05:13 PM

Understood. How feasible is it that they would have built settler cities of hellenized thracians/natives? I guess at a point the comparison breaks down because there's such a large difference between hellenized natives and makedonians. At the same time, however, the settler cities are a very important building for pushing greek culture outside Greece, and this change feels less like a consolation prize and more like a straight nerf toward baktria.

If I am reading this right, helcon_ref is intended as a sidegrade for AS and Ptolemaioi, as well as a separate, distinct iteration of helcon_three in areas that geographically didn't have makedonians. Thematically, it makes perfect sense, but mechanically it's very janky. I would suggest adding another building--that way you'd have helcon_two, helcon_three, helcon_nomak, and helcon_ref. However, I know the mod doesn't have building slots to spare.

That brings me back to my earlier idea. Tweak the recruitment of helcon_three based on area, tweak its descriptive text (esp for factions like Baktria who are very unlikely to see Makedonian settlers), and reserve helcon_ref for the specific areas (Mysia, Lydia, etc) that need to be able to opt into it. The end result should thematically be the same without having such a janky effect on gameplay.

**QuintusSertorius** · April 17, 2021, 08:23 AM

Hellenised Anatolians and Iranians are who most of the "Greeks" in the east were, historically.

In a way you could see the helcol_ref as a policy change towards settling non-Makedonians. Which is what is intended with the adjustments I've made to it. It now takes 10 turns and costs 12k and should really be seen as an alternate fork to the helcol_three, rather than a progression. I'm tempted to remove the upgrade from three to ref, but then that would remove that distinct "reform" that the later Ptolemaioi and Seleukids made away from the phalanx.

The recruitment of everywhere is based on region anyway, even the Hellenistic Colony, though it's more uniform than many other buildings. There are slots to spare in that building (you can have up to nine and only four are used), but I think while a little clunky, adding even more buildings might just confuse things.