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Thread: Islam is the heir to Abraham

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    enoch,

    Islam is not an Abrahamic religion, never was and never will be. The promises from God to Abraham and Sarah were that their son Isaac would be the line that Messias would come. Hagar and Ishmael were not part of that promise. That God said that from Ishmael would come a great nation has no connection to the promise given to Abraham and Sarah. Had Ishmael not bullied Isaac they wouldn't have been cast out meaning they would have remained in Abraham's family with a familiar distinction that Ishmael the elder would have served Isaac the younger but it didn't happen. So, through Isaac came Christ Jesus the promised Messiah, Immanuel, God with us, to die for the sins of man and to be raised again from the dead to deliver eternal life for all those that believe on Him. Jesus is God whereas Mohammed is a false prophet who delivers nothing except the downing of Jesus Christ as if that were possible. Abraham was accounted righteous before God as was Isaac. Ishmael and Mohammed never were.
    What are your sources on Islam not being Abrahamic? Ishmael left because God's plan was for him to leave. What if he had stayed is the same as saying what if Jesus was just a man, trying to get home.

  2. #22
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    What are your sources on Islam not being Abrahamic? Ishmael left because God's plan was for him to leave. What if he had stayed is the same as saying what if Jesus was just a man, trying to get home.
    enoch,

    Well, to start with Islam didn't come on the scene centuries after Abraham's death so how could Mohammed know anything about Abraham's faith for if he did he would have found out that Jesus was indeed the Messias promised through the line of Isaac. But no, he became the anti-Christ of his day by making the link between Ishmael and what he intended to be Islam. As we know Islam was built up by the sword whereas the elect of God are called by love made possible by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and why many Muslims are by that Gospel being saved from that religion.

  3. #23
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    enoch,

    Well, to start with Islam didn't come on the scene centuries after Abraham's death so how could Mohammed know anything about Abraham's faith for if he did he would have found out that Jesus was indeed the Messias promised through the line of Isaac. But no, he became the anti-Christ of his day by making the link between Ishmael and what he intended to be Islam. As we know Islam was built up by the sword whereas the elect of God are called by love made possible by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and why many Muslims are by that Gospel being saved from that religion.
    You have an odd view of European history if you believe Christianity was not spread by the sword (or rather in both cases state power would be more appropriate) as soon as it found means to do so.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    enoch,

    Well, to start with Islam didn't come on the scene centuries after Abraham's death so how could Mohammed know anything about Abraham's faith for if he did he would have found out that Jesus was indeed the Messias promised through the line of Isaac. But no, he became the anti-Christ of his day by making the link between Ishmael and what he intended to be Islam. As we know Islam was built up by the sword whereas the elect of God are called by love made possible by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and why many Muslims are by that Gospel being saved from that religion.
    None of the above is correct. Plus even Jesus said one more would come after him who was Mohammed.

  5. #25
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Christianity began soon after the Edict of Milan (311 AD) with the persecution of Pagans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...Western_Empire

    The Franks spread christianity with the sword against the

    Allemanni

    The kingdom of Alamannia between Strasbourg and Augsburg lasted until 496, when the Alemanni were conquered by Clovis I at the Battle of Tolbiac. The war of Clovis with the Alemanni forms the setting for the conversion of Clovis, briefly treated by Gregory of Tours. (Book II.31) Subsequently, the Alemanni formed part of the Frankish dominions and were governed by a Frankish duke.

    In 746, Carloman ended an uprising by summarily executing all Alemannic nobility at the blood court at Cannstatt, and for the following century, Alemannia was ruled by Frankish dukes. Following the treaty of Verdun of 843, Alemannia became a province of the eastern kingdom of Louis the German, the precursor of the Holy Roman Empire. The duchy persisted until 1268.


    Frisians

    In the early 8th century the Frisian nobles came into increasing conflict with the Franks to their south, resulting in a series of wars in which the Frankish Empire eventually subjugated Frisia in 734. These wars benefited attempts by Anglo-Irish missionaries (which had begun with Saint Boniface) to convert the Frisian populace to Christianity, in which Saint Willibrord largely succeeded.[21]


    Saxons

    Alluding to the Saxons, the contemporary poet of the Paderborn Epic praises terror as a means of conversion: "What the contrary mind and perverse soul refuse to do with persuasion, / Let them leap to accomplish when compelled by fear."[3]

    One of Charlemagne's famed capitularies outlined part of the religious intent of his interactions with the Saxons. In 785, he issued the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae which asserted, "If any one of the race of the Saxons hereafter concealed among them shall have wished to hide himself unbaptized, and shall have scorned to come to baptism and shall have wished to remain a pagan, let him be punished by death."[4]


    and Thuringians

    Christianity had reached the Thuringii in the 5th century, but their exposure to it was limited. Their real Christianisation took place, alongside the ecclesiastical organisation of their territory, during the early and mid 8th century under Boniface, who felled their "sacred oak" at Geismar in 724, abolishing the vestiges of their paganism.
    .

    The Teutonic Order eradicated the pagan baltic Prussians and converted the Balts (except the Lithuans) with the sword too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Crusade

    But my prime example for christian love and tolerance:

    Hypatia
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; May 11, 2021 at 10:51 AM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  6. #26

    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Plus even Jesus said one more would come after him who was Mohammed.
    Where did Jesus say that?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Where did Jesus say that?
    John 14:17, 14:26ish, 16:7-15
    off the top of my head

  8. #28

    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    I'm having some difficulty finding any mention of Mohammed in those verses.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    I'm having some difficulty finding any mention of Mohammed in those verses.
    Reading comprehension is hard to teach in this format. C'est la vie. The OT doesn't say Jesus either lol.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Reading comprehension is hard to teach in this format. C'est la vie.
    I.e. You have nothing.
    The OT doesn't say Jesus either lol.
    Not the subject you introduced. You can't defend the subject you introduced, so you try to shift the subject.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Disagree in toto.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Then show Mohammed in those verses.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    I did. The world is only as deep as one can see. This is why fools think themselves profound.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    No you have not. You have made an assertion (Jesus said one more would come after him who was Mohammed), and have been unable to support that claim with the verses you cited.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    I have. It happened. And for the record I said Jesus said one more would come after him who was Mohammed. The 8th prophet. Enoch was the uno of course.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You have an odd view of European history if you believe Christianity was not spread by the sword (or rather in both cases state power would be more appropriate) as soon as it found means to do so.
    conon394,

    Christianity only comes to a person by hearing the Gospel. What history has shown us is that false christianity, with a small c, was indeed forced on many peoples by force, that said, many were brought to Christ out of it and still are.

    enoch,

    Please quote book, chapter and verses where Jesus says this?

    Marticia lunia Bruti,

    May I take this opportunity to tell you that Christianity began the day when God announce Abel to be righteous before Him as with all the other pre-Jesus saints. Their accounts were cleared at the cross by the blood of Christ just as those living were and those as yet to be born were. It was a once only sacrifice covering all time. Salvation comes by the word of God. It is an act of God and God alone.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Already quoted basics. Obviously had to use the NT because Jesus does not appear in the OT.

  18. #38
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Christianity only comes to a person by hearing the Gospel. What history has shown us is that false christianity, with a small c, was indeed forced on many peoples by force, that said, many were brought to Christ out of it and still are.
    So are than admitting you accept only your own particular sub sect of Christianity as valid - so realistically you are a Paulite/Augustinenian. In any case the point reamians the genal spread of the message of christian belief was just as forceful as that of Islam.

    Salvation comes by the word of God. It is an act of God and God alone.
    Of course assuming you believe one particular interpretation of a particular creation myth created one particular set of iron age back water types and reworked heavily by Augustine
    Last edited by conon394; May 12, 2021 at 01:25 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #39
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    John 14:17, 14:26ish, 16:7-15
    off the top of my head
    enoch,

    The verses you quote are about the Holy Spirit or Comforter who indwells every born again person. Absolutely nothing to do with Mohammed at all. He is the Person on Whom Jesus is talking about. His first job is to glorify Jesus and His second to lead His people into all truth once they are saved.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    enoch,

    The verses you quote are about the Holy Spirit or Comforter who indwells every born again person. Absolutely nothing to do with Mohammed at all. He is the Person on Whom Jesus is talking about. His first job is to glorify Jesus and His second to lead His people into all truth once they are saved.
    Jesus was talking about the 8th and final prophet in some of those. Whether the Holy Spirit is one throughout all prophets was the debate in his time. And the Counselor with a capital C is a better translation.

    Keep in mind how different your view of Christianity is after thousands of years of change than the early Christians, most of it motivated by secular/temporal interests.

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