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Thread: Islam is the heir to Abraham

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    enoch's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Islam is the heir to Abraham

    The holy book of Islam was dictated by the actual prophet, who was a traditional OT prophet and thus realistic as a continuation of the God Yahweh's divine plan. The prophet controlled the Quran's creation and lived to see his religion set itself on its proper path.

    Jesus, in the early Church, has similar claims to be a continuation in the scheming of the Great Y, however, in the current and most dominant Christian Schema, Jesus was not consistent with the One Mad God's previous methods, nor does he write any part of the Bible.

    And to really slam the Son of the Sun, not even everything attributed to the ministry of Jesus is included in the Bible, and much of Jesus' story was intentionally cut by entrenched powers who took it upon themselves to judge what was divine gospel, and what might make the proles harder to dominate. The cherry, of course, is that the words of Jesus' own brother and many of those who likely actually knew him, were disavowed by the most powerful, secularly corrupt Christian sect hundreds of years after his death.

    The same sect that slaughtered the temporally weaker and frankly more spiritual other sects (which happened to be more jewish and closer to Jerusalem as well as more likely to have been founded by those who actually followed Jesus the man), and then continued to slaughter or buy out any group that ever rose and began to ask, why don't we act more like Jesus told us to. The Cathars are a good example of named heretics, but the Franciscans and the Spiritual Movement they founded is a far more telling tale.

    Islam is the real deal folks. Mohammed was the 8th and final prophet. Enoch to Mohammed. The holy path.
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    It's certainly continuation of the barbarity commonly called Old Testament.

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    enoch's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    It's certainly continuation of the barbarity commonly called Old Testament.
    Marduk lite.
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    Gigantus's Avatar You should always listen to your inner voice! - Agreed, but which one?
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    It's certainly continuation of the barbarity commonly called Old Testament.
    Nothing wrong with wiping out whole cities because the inhabitants are more interesting in partying hard then worshiping the soon to be genocidal dude, is there? That's hard to beat I think.
    Last edited by Gigantus; April 13, 2021 at 10:30 PM.




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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Nothing wrong with wiping out whole cities because the inhabitants are more interesting in partying hard then worshiping the soon to be genocidal dude, is there?
    Does the Flood not count as a genocide then?

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    Gigantus's Avatar You should always listen to your inner voice! - Agreed, but which one?
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Does the Flood not count as a genocide then?
    It certainly does.

    I did however respond to the 'continuity' argument, eg Islam is the continuity of the old testament. Feel free to extend my statement to include the Flood as well or whatever mass casualty event I might have missed in the old testament:

    "Nothing wrong with wiping out whole cities or drown everybody because the inhabitants\population are is more interesting in partying hard then worshiping the soon to be genocidal dude, is there? That's hard to beat I think."


    Edit: adding the wiping out of a whole generation would splendidly fit in there as well.

    Edit2: just noted that you posted while I edited this into my post: "That's hard to beat I think." Maybe that's where the misunderstanding comes from.
    Last edited by Gigantus; April 13, 2021 at 11:33 PM. Reason: format for clarity




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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Does the Flood not count as a genocide then?
    That's ecoterrorism.

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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    God is such a douche.
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    The holy book of Islam was dictated by the actual prophet, who was a traditional OT prophet and thus realistic as a continuation of the God Yahweh's divine plan. The prophet controlled the Quran's creation and lived to see his religion set itself on its proper path.

    Jesus, in the early Church, has similar claims to be a continuation in the scheming of the Great Y, however, in the current and most dominant Christian Schema, Jesus was not consistent with the One Mad God's previous methods, nor does he write any part of the Bible.

    And to really slam the Son of the Sun, not even everything attributed to the ministry of Jesus is included in the Bible, and much of Jesus' story was intentionally cut by entrenched powers who took it upon themselves to judge what was divine gospel, and what might make the proles harder to dominate. The cherry, of course, is that the words of Jesus' own brother and many of those who likely actually knew him, were disavowed by the most powerful, secularly corrupt Christian sect hundreds of years after his death.

    The same sect that slaughtered the temporally weaker and frankly more spiritual other sects (which happened to be more jewish and closer to Jerusalem as well as more likely to have been founded by those who actually followed Jesus the man), and then continued to slaughter or buy out any group that ever rose and began to ask, why don't we act more like Jesus told us to. The Cathars are a good example of named heretics, but the Franciscans and the Spiritual Movement they founded is a far more telling tale.

    Islam is the real deal folks. Mohammed was the 8th and final prophet. Enoch to Mohammed. The holy path.
    I'll just blatantly ignore the tongue-in-cheeky-ness of this entire thread any annoy everyone with serious arguments:
    You're trying to make a point via the consistency with older traditions, which is one Islam can indeed structurally claim, though the explicit claim of literal dictation by an angel somewhat sets it apart from the traditional view on the Torah, but people better versed in this should probably comment on that. It should still be noted that the textualisation of the Torah likely happened way later (~5th century BC onwards) than the alleged lifetimes of the prophets many of its books are named after, so prophets writing their own books is not really the ordinary case.
    Furthermore, your point against Christianity by lack of consistency with the OT does not work, since Christianity is all about breaking analogy while maintaining continuity. It is the very point of Christianity that Christ is not just another Rabbi/prophet, and even if the Arian heresy was banned more for political than theological reasons at the time one can point out its theological weakness nevertheless: If Christ is not god, then the sacrifice on the cross would not be a self-sacrifice of God, the only one who can actually wipe the original sin, and would instead be God vicariously punishing some (albeit elevated) human without actually wiping original sin - which is inconsistent with divine grace and would not be an act of redemption.

    Finally, I'd be careful with using the Cathars as an example of "better Christianity" since they weren't Christian at all. They used some of the cultural forms and imagery of Christianity, but their belief was a strictly dualist one with complete rejection of all things physical or worldly. If the cathars had had their will humanity would have stopped procreating altogether and died out by 14-something. While that might have been better for the environment none of us can actually commend this without committing performative self-contradiction.
    (Brutally killing them all off was still not a good thing, but that is a different point.)
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    enoch's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    While wasn’t Catharism an orgy would be a fun sideline, why is the Holy Ghost also god? While not just leave that part out?

    An aside, it surprises me anyone speaking the humanist truth can believe in original sin, the disconnect between Biblical Realism being accepted as inanity or hilarity yet having faith of the better kind that the miracles and the presence of divinity in a mangod godman is factual, never ceases to astonish and perplex.

    Or why a virgin birth, later a satan and all the silly jazz we know the origins of. Can trace the ideas as they evolve sometimes even pinpoint the why? It is unlikely Jesus thought he was dying to redeem original sin bc his reference point was Messiah. The gospels we love most minus that maniac John are direct responses to the Roman authorities actions in Judea.

    Hence bear your cross gets to the just of Mark but a generation is so later we have John’s god is mythos Jesus is the king of heaven.

    I always wonder why we don’t worship Paul, who does far more than Jesus can to justify God’s ways to man.

    Guess what I am saying is Terence, this is stupid stuff.
    Last edited by enoch; April 14, 2021 at 01:04 PM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Islam started out as an esoteric Nestorian sect that took on Ebionite beliefs.
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    enoch's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Islam started out as an esoteric Nestorian sect that took on Ebionite beliefs.
    I like this. Now tell us how Christianity started? Maintain consistency please.
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    I like this. Now tell us how Christianity started? Maintain consistency please.
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    Last edited by Cope; April 22, 2021 at 04:33 AM.

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    antaeus's Avatar Simplism
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Interesting argument. Continuity.

    Of course there are a bazillion other religious movements that claim some form of continuity from Abraham.

    I mean in this respect the only thing Islam has over say Druze or Baha'i for example, is the legitimacy granted by a few extra adherents.

    Historically, a common response to times of trauma and upheaval was a reassessment of religions, both local and foreign that led to new movements. Christianity emerging out of the upheaval of Roman interference in Judea, Islam forming out of the trauma of a generation of war between Rome and Persia. This process still happens now and was particularly common during the colonial period of the 19th century.
    Last edited by antaeus; April 22, 2021 at 06:11 AM.
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    enoch's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Antaeus said the why but not the from where on the ideas. The above is just the Logos slightly reworked. So some credit to Cope on origining.
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    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Yes, Islam is the heir to Abraham, but so are the sects of Judaism and the denominations of Christianity.
    Each of them twist and stretch the source material to suit their ends and fit their histories.

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    I always wonder why we don’t worship Paul, who does far more than Jesus can to justify God’s ways to man.
    Presbyterians exalt the word of Paul above all others and even stoop to alter the Lord's prayer (the only thing directly attributed as the words of Christ) to suit their own ends.
    Most Protestant denominations should probably be called "Paulists" rather than Christians to be fair.
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    enoch's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Yes, Islam is the heir to Abraham, but so are the sects of Judaism and the denominations of Christianity.
    Each of them twist and stretch the source material to suit their ends and fit their histories.



    Presbyterians exalt the word of Paul above all others and even stoop to alter the Lord's prayer (the only thing directly attributed as the words of Christ) to suit their own ends.
    Most Protestant denominations should probably be called "Paulists" rather than Christians to be fair.
    As a confirmed Presbyterians it has always irked me the making the Lord’s Prayer our own but we are but the most popular not the only sect to do so. More than just the Protestants owe near everything to Paul. The idea of a universal church was his baby.

    Jesus can’t be the Christo by any real measuring however that means he can be a prophet from god in the Abrahamic historizing and thus more than just a man.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    I like this. Now tell us how Christianity started? Maintain consistency please.
    Nice whataboutism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post


    Presbyterians exalt the word of Paul above all others and even stoop to alter the Lord's prayer (the only thing directly attributed as the words of Christ) to suit their own ends.
    Most Protestant denominations should probably be called "Paulists" rather than Christians to be fair.
    Name's already taken, but fair point.
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  19. #19
    enoch's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Nice whataboutism.
    WHO WHO WHO told you this was an argument?

    I was hoping for a syncretism for Christianity like you borrowed for Islam.

    Along the lines of,

    Their union constituted a pantheistic religion of the deified world. From coarse fetichism and savage superstition of the learned priests. Asian cults gradually produced a system of metaphysics and eschatology. This religion was no longer like that of ancient Rome, a mere collection of propitiatory and expiatory rites performed by citizens for the good of the state; it pretended to offer to all men a world conception which gave rise to a rule of conduct and placed the end of existence in a future life. It was more unlike the worship which Augustus had sought to strengthen than the Christianity against which he had contended. The two opposed creeds moved in the same intellectual level and moral sphere, and one could actually pass from the one to the other without any great shock or interruption..... The Roman aristocracy, which had remained faithful to the gods of their ancestors, did not have a mentality or morality very different from that of Christianity of their time. The religious and mystical spirit of the Orient had slowly overcome the social organism, and prepared all nations to unite in the bosom of a universal church.

    But like, in the less concise way you articulate.

    Have you read Ross Kane’s book on the subject?
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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Islam is the heir to Abraham

    enoch,

    Islam is not an Abrahamic religion, never was and never will be. The promises from God to Abraham and Sarah were that their son Isaac would be the line that Messias would come. Hagar and Ishmael were not part of that promise. That God said that from Ishmael would come a great nation has no connection to the promise given to Abraham and Sarah. Had Ishmael not bullied Isaac they wouldn't have been cast out meaning they would have remained in Abraham's family with a familiar distinction that Ishmael the elder would have served Isaac the younger but it didn't happen. So, through Isaac came Christ Jesus the promised Messiah, Immanuel, God with us, to die for the sins of man and to be raised again from the dead to deliver eternal life for all those that believe on Him. Jesus is God whereas Mohammed is a false prophet who delivers nothing except the downing of Jesus Christ as if that were possible. Abraham was accounted righteous before God as was Isaac. Ishmael and Mohammed never were.

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