Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

[QuintusSertorius]

You dont understand. Lets assume that people inhabiting the region 3000 years ago are genetically and linguistically the same as today’s georgians. The states which the ancient kartvelians created cannot in any way, shape or form considered to be the antecedent of modern day Georgia. That would require a continous identity to exist from 1200 BC to modern day, which certainly does not.

Even that first premise is impossible outside of instances like uncontacted tribes of the Amazonian jungle. Where modern Georgia sits is a region much traversed by other peoples and interacted with everyone around them for that entire time.

[Ampe211]

I have absolutely no intention of making fun of your country’s history. But you have to accept the fact, that this nationalistic approach of treating these very dubious, sometimes downright absurd sources and claims of likeminded historians as absolute truth just because they meet your ideas about your countrys history makes it impossible for the hard working creators of this mod successfully aiming to be one of the most realistic games out there to use any of your work.

[QuintusSertorius]

Learn Georgian history and Georgian linguistics. Everything can be seen there. It was one people and had one language. After invasions slightly separated. You deny that they were not kartvelian tribes ,As the Celts, Slavs.This means that you do not know the history of Georgia.Please do not talk about what you do not know

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages

Over the course of 3,000 years, not a single individual from outside Georgia migrated into the region, nor did a single individual from Georgia leave? Nor did any linguistic drift occur either?

Do you not see how ridiculous that idea is?

The Celts didn't originate in France, they migrated there. The Slavs didn't originate in central Europe, their forebears came from the Eurasian steppe. All of humanity's history is of migration from our origins in Africa 100,000 years ago - or are you telling me Georgians didn't come from the same place as all other homo sapiens?

[Khevsur]

Even that first premise is impossible outside of instances like uncontacted tribes of the Amazonian jungle. Where modern Georgia sits is a region much traversed by other peoples and interacted with everyone around them for that entire time.

Of course there is no absolutely pure blood nation. But the ancestor of most of the Georgian people today is the descendants of the Kartvelian tribes : Colchians, Iberians , Meskhian , chalybes , taochi , saspers and others.

You say that these tribes are not Kartvelian tribes?

[Khevsur]

I have absolutely no intention of making fun of your country’s history. But you have to accept the fact, that this nationalistic approach of treating these very dubious, sometimes downright absurd sources and claims of likeminded historians as absolute truth just because they meet your ideas about your countrys history makes it impossible for the hard working creators of this mod successfully aiming to be one of the most realistic games out there to use any of your work.

I am not a nationalist, I say that : Kartvelian tribes ( Colchians, Iberians , Meskhian , chalybes , taochi , saspers and others) created ancient kingdoms in ancient times ( Kingdom of Colchis, Kingdom of diauehi,Kingdom of Iberia ).These people were of one origin - Kartvelians ! Like Celts, germanics ... These were not different peoples, such as the Celts and the Turks. Do you oppose this?


I love this game because it is historically accurate, That is why I am fighting for historical accuracy in the Caucasus.

[Ampe211]

What does it matter if they are the ancestors of most modenr day georgians, which, by the way we have no way of knowing, and considering that it was indeed a much traversed area is unlikely. The fact that there wasnt a comcept of a nation bringing together all these different tribes and ethnicities makes it invalid to call them “old georgians”.

I just cant see how it is different compared to calling romans old italians. Because they are presumably ethnically less homogeneous?

[QuintusSertorius]

I love this game because it is historically accurate, That is why I am fighting for historical accuracy in the Caucasus.

No you are not. You are fighting for nationalist-inspired historical revisionism. That is why we have no use for most of what you say.

[Khevsur]

What does it matter if they are the ancestors of most modenr day georgians, which, by the way we have no way of knowing, and considering that it was indeed a much traversed area is unlikely. The fact that there wasnt a comcept of a nation bringing together all these different tribes and ethnicities makes it invalid to call them “old georgians”.

Georgians is Foreign name = Kartvelians.

Every ethnos has a different history here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...his_and_Iberia

No you are not. You are fighting for nationalist-inspired historical revisionism. That is why we have no use for most of what you say.

Do nationalists write in Wikipedia? I am not a nationalist. I have explained it many times. I am tired.This is an attack on me

yes. Kartvelian Tribes were old Kartvelians=old Georgians.Their language was similar, which originated from one Proto-Kartvelian language

The Germanic tribes were not the old Germans? Germanic tribes were old Germans. germanic tribes Created the German nation. The Germanic tribes are the ancestors of the Germans.

Kartvelian tribes - Colchians , Iberians, Meskhians ,Soanes, Chalybes are ancestors of the Kartvelians = Georgians.

Is it clear?

[Ampe211]

Yes, nationalists absolutely do write wikipedia arricles. That is one of the many reasons why wikipedia isnt considered a reliable source for any kind of academic discussion.

[Ampe211]

I’ve read a lot of the things you posted. Some of them are really interesting stuff, but i recognize this type of nationastically fuelled historical revisionism. As a European, i know that the historiography of most of the countries here also suffered from this phenomenon mainly in the 19th century. You have to understand that you cannot capitalize on the relative indifference of this incredibly busy team to this topic. You cannnot seriously expect them to read and then reasearch and try to confirm everyhing you linked, simply because there are more impotant things to do, and because these things are, well, dubious to say the least, no to mention the outrageously absurd things like when you posted about the similarity of spanish iberians to caucasian iberians.

[QuintusSertorius]

Do nationalists write in Wikipedia? I am not a nationalist. I have explained it many times. I am tired.This is an attack on me

For at least the last six years, 95%+ of your posts in the EBII forum are about Georgia. Extolling the unique and special virtues of Georgia and the way anything less than this laudatory treatment is an "insult". You even come out with ridiculous claims about how essentially everything that is of note in the world originated in Georgia, or ancient peoples in other places have Georgian origins. You are hyper sensetive to any claims contary to the special place you hold Georgia above all other places in the world.

[Ampe211]

Im gonna have a last go at it, and then im done. Again: the problem is, that from a lot of the sources you use, the claims you make, the conclusions you draw it is obvious, that you are under the influence of a classical, long-standing phenomenon called historical revisionism, which in your case, and in most cases really, is accompanied and fuelled by over the top nationalism. And that makes anything you have come up with, are coming up with or going to come up with useless for a team aiming to make their mod as historically accurate as possible. The very nature of the sources you work from makes it really hard to prove your claims wrong, but you as a self appointed historical expert on Georgia should very well know that there are inexcusable absurdities among them that dont require to be disproved since they are so ridicolous. Apply source critique and dont use ad hominem attacks. Thats all i gotta say.

[Sarkiss]

oh, dear. sorry, i have not read that book you linked on the previous page im afraid. the fact that i have a certain ethnic background does not cast my identity in stone btw. identities are ever changing, especially across generations and different historical eras. you seem to assume otherwise. likewise, nations are not primordial, they are social constructs, as in they are created by people from people (and some would say for the people). i.e. the majority of the population of the 13 North American British colonies turned from identifying as 'English gentlemen' to being 'Americans' in a matter of years during American Revolution/War of Independence. that is less than a generation. now imagine what sort of identity change a group of people can undergo in a course or thousands of years. and here you are arguing that they are the same as modern people. do you see how implausible this claim looks?


EDIT: Khevsur, i've had no input in Colchis nor their units, but rest assured that however worked on this region had the best of intentions.
all i did here was asking questions to try and maybe understand your point of view. but you are not a particular convincing interlocutor im afraid.
what saddens me a little is that your approach may hinder the attempts to understand things how they really were (as far as this is possible), as von Ranke put it, which is the only job of a proper historian. we try to understand the past and its peoples on their own terms, not how we want them to look to suit our present day agendas and insecurities. but by simplifying and refusing to empathise and comprehend those who came before us, we are stripping them of both their identities and agency. we risk 'dehumanizing' them, turning them into shadows that serve current goals. in this case investigation of their lives do not really matter, all that matters is that we mould their stories so they help us prove our current thinking. this is wrong, this isn't history.

[Khevsur]

Don't listen to these undeducated people Khevsur. They are just jealous because they have no horned clown-musician among their ancestors.

They create horned helmets kartvelian warriors according to bronze kartvelian pagan clown-musician figurine

they create bronze age knives for hellenistic kartvelian warriors.

They ignored the real helmets.

they named absurd name "kartvelni mehomni "

They do not know who the Kartvelian tribes are


Sarkiss

If you do not know, read and learn !!!









QuintusSertorius

I felt that someone was hindering the historical accuracy in the Caucasus.

Is the truth what you want?.Prove that there were no kartvelian tribes. Prove that they are not the ancestors of Georgians. Show me your real source. I showed you . Your behavior is wrong !

[Lifthrasir]

This is enough. Thread temporary closed for cool down and cleaning. Meanwhile, I remind you, Gents, to stay on topic and to avoid personal reference in any form.

[z3n]

To add to what Lifthrasir said, any further discussion must be kept respectful. Be warned that penalties will be given to anyone who breaks the ToS.

https://wiki.twcenter.net/index.php?...rms_of_Service

[Lifthrasir]

Thread re-opened. Note that any further miss step will lead to its permanent closure. You've been warned.

[Vladyvid]

Hope this doesnt get out of hand again like before. I was kinda sympathetic to this cause, but all the drama is really making me think.

@Khevsur

You asked my help, but i told you i dont have time for it.
However, i can make you a deal on a specific condition. I can help with the models/units, but only if you get the blessings from the EBII team for those units to be included.
If you and the team can agree that what i will do, is gonna be used in EBII (next version etc), then that is my condition.

I think my condition is reasonable, and if its impossible then that is beyond me.

[QuintusSertorius]

We have plans to use every single available unit slot in the game (ie all 498 of them). At the moment we have 4 slots free, and we do not intend to spend them all on expanding the roster of one or two provinces.

[Genava]

I can help with the models/units, but only if you get the blessings from the EBII team for those units to be included.

I think the team doesn't want any interaction with Khevsur anymore. A line has been crossed and I don't think anyone will change its mind.

The attitude of Khevsur was problematic from the start but the team was forgiving because of the obvious linguistic barrier. A lot was forgiven because of the difficulties from Khevsur to express himself in English.

But his behaviors have caused other people to reconsider their forgiveness. There are some things that cannot be excused by language difficulties.

So at this point, this is over. Finito. Terminé.