View Poll Results: Do you want This old Georgian warriors in the game?

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Thread: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

  1. #101

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    out of curiosity, and since you think you know 'your history' so well, why do you keep calling these peoples 'old Georgians'? surely if you're the expert you claim to be, you'd know that back then they did not identify themselves as such. i wouldn't normally ask this question of any amateur historian, but why keep doing this time and again if you are so knowledgeable and care for historical accuracy so much?


    Yes, they were old Georgians:


    Georgian tribes(Kartvelian tribes) - Egrisians(Colchians), Taochians,Kartlians(iberians) ,Meskhetians(Mushki),Kakhetians , Svanians(Soanes) , Chalybes(Sanni) ,Heniochs,Saspers and other georgian tribes - It was one people like Celts, Slavs, Germans, Arabs, Turks...

    Georgian people had one language - Proto-Georgian(Proto-Kartvelian). in georgian language are small dialectal differences, but this is one language- Georgian ( Kartvelian ) language . Georgian people sometimes united and sometimes disintegrated - Because of the invaders. But They considered themselves one people,They fought together against the invaders and They always formed one kingdom.

    These people created Kingdom Of Colchis In 13th c BC, Kingdom of Diauehi(Taochi) In the 12th c BC. Kingdom of iberia( Kartli) - In 4th c BC . Then in the Middle Ages they united again and formed the Kingdom of Georgia(Sakartvelos samepo). Today these people created the Republic of Georgia (sakartvelo).

    According to the sources of ancient Greek historians Colchians and Meskhetians were one people. Before arrival of the Indo-european phrygo-Armenians, part of the population of kingdom of Urartu(Hurrians) was Georgian ( Saspers)

    Please learn history of Georgia and then ask me questions. My English is limited and I do not want to give lectures.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...rgia_(country)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages
    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 01:47 AM.

  2. #102

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Please learn history of Georgia and then ask me questions. My English is limited and I do not want to give lectures.
    you do try though, don't you. but distorted ones for some reason because something else takes precedent over history and historical accuracy. and because you have other priorities, the logic you apply to historical investigations is rather strange one imho. for example, no one calls Romans 'old Italians', even though Italy is not an anachronistic term when applied to them, unlike in your case, because at the time Italy existed as geographical concept. still, we do not call Romans 'Italians', be that 'old' or 'young'. there are many peoples who speak Romance languages today, we do not call them all Romans, let alone Italians. see where im going with this?

  3. #103

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    you do try though, don't you. but distorted ones for some reason because something else takes precedent over history and historical accuracy. and because you have other priorities, the logic you apply to historical investigations is rather strange one imho. for example, no one calls Romans 'old Italians', even though Italy is not an anachronistic term when applied to them, unlike in your case, because at the time Italy existed as geographical concept. still, we do not call Romans 'Italians', be that 'old' or 'young'. there are many peoples who speak Romance languages today, we do not call them all Romans, let alone Italians. see where im going with this?

    Colchians , Iberians , Chalybeans , mushki and others are Kartvelian tribes - Kartvelians- That is Old Georgians .

    remember: Kartvelians=Georgians.Old Georgians (Old Kartvelians Tribes) are a common name of Old Kartvelian Tribes.


    team create several factions of the Celts in the game , I do not have the luxury of this.


    Today's Italians are not the old Italians - Many Germanic tribes are mixed . The old Georgian tribes (old kartvelian tribes) are still Georgians (Kartvelians) today



    I have uploaded many PDF files about this and you can read them.It is better to learn and then talk
    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 03:18 AM.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Colchians , Iberians , Chalybeans , mushki and others are Kartvelian tribes - Kartvelians- That is Old Georgians .

    remember: Kartvelians=Georgians.Old Georgians (Old Kartvelians Tribes) are a common name of Old Kartvelian Tribes.


    team create several factions of the Celts in the game , I do not have the luxury of this.


    Today's Italians are not the old Italians - Many Germanic tribes are mixed . The old Georgian tribes (old kartvelian tribes) are still Georgians (Kartvelians) today



    I have uploaded many PDF files about this and you can read them.
    there was a lot of migrations into Italy, but none to Colchis and Caucasian Iberia? these regions stood firm and locals managed to live in total isolation for millennia and are all 'purely blooded', inbreds? what happened to all the Persian, Turkic, Kypchak, Abkhaz, Russian etc elements that lived in/controlled these lands for thousands of years? how to account for this? actually, thats more of rhetorical question going beyond our timeframe. in general, historiography (in the west at least) is about identifying peoples as they were at the time under investigation (i.e. Hellenistic period in the case of EB), how they viewed themselves, understanding them on their own terms, not as one wants them to be, nor by projecting modern lenses and dragging them into 'imagined communities'. why bother? because if you limit yourself to simplified and agenda driven quasi-historical frameworks and approaches, you cannot truly understand people in the past, their outlooks and experiences.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    there was a lot of migrations into Italy, but none to Colchis and Caucasian Iberia? these regions stood firm and locals managed to live in total isolation for millennia and are all 'purely blooded', inbreds? what happened to all the Persian, Turkic, Kypchak, Abkhaz, Russian etc elements that lived in/controlled these lands for thousands of years? how to account for this? actually, thats more of rhetorical question going beyond our timeframe. in general, historiography (in the west at least) is about identifying peoples as they were at the time under investigation (i.e. Hellenistic period in the case of EB), how they viewed themselves, understanding them on their own terms, not as one wants them to be, nor by projecting modern lenses and dragging them into 'imagined communities'. why bother? because if you limit yourself to simplified and agenda driven quasi-historical frameworks and approaches, you cannot truly understand people in the past, their outlooks and experiences.



    The Georgian language has changed only slightly.Georgians Genetics is not mixed many of foreign genetic.


    I not want talk about genetics and linguistics. There is no place for this on the forum, But the self-identification of these people has not changed.


    I will tell you again - Learn the history of Georgia and then talk. You know nothing and I do not want to talk to you. I do not know quantum physics and I do not talk about it
    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 04:05 AM.

  6. #106

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    The Georgian language has changed only slightly.Georgians Genetics is not a many of foreign genetic mixed.


    I want not talk about genetics and linguistics. There is no place for this on the forum, But the self-identification of these people has not changed.


    I will tell you again - Learn the history of Georgia and then talk. You know nothing and I do not want to talk to you.
    claiming that linguistic and genetic elements have not changed much but then refusing to support it, or talk about it at all, does not make these claims very convincing, does it? especially when we know that these region was so frequently crossed and dominated by exogenous cultures from at least as far back as the Cimmerians.

    would it be okay if i asked you to back up your other claim and show us some credible sources (primary would be the best) that can demonstrate that Colchian self-identification in 3rd century BC is consistent with present day Georgian identity (and thus as you say 'has not changed') please?

  7. #107

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    claiming that linguistic and genetic elements have not changed much but then refusing to support it, or talk about it at all, does not make these claims very convincing, does it? especially when we know that these region was so frequently crossed and dominated by exogenous cultures from at least as far back as the Cimmerians.

    would it be okay if i asked you to back up your other claim and show us some credible sources (primary would be the best) that can demonstrate that Colchian self-identification in 3rd century BC is consistent with present day Georgian identity (and thus as you say 'has not changed') please?
    Yes kartvelians still speak kartvelian languages today.You forgot the high mountains and Deep forests, the refuge of the Georgians during the conquests




    Your personal goals are obvious. remember:This is just a game !!! . I will not give a lecture to you. If you are interested, find the works of Georgian linguistics yourself. I am not obliged to educate you.This forum is not a place for linguistics.Below is the literature and you can search



    https://tsu-ge.academia.edu/GiaKvashilava
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Kartvelian_language








    p.s Kartlian unit name "kartvelni mehoni" Is it your creation?

    There is no such word in the old and modern Georgian language.
    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 05:06 AM.

  8. #108
    Tadzreuli's Avatar Chevalier Blanche
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    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Hi guys, looks like your discussion reached an impasse. I don't understand what about discuss you , are or not are the Old Georgian tribes a modern georgians ? Well, it is a question of language , that's all. Actually, old georgian language about 1500-2000 BC formed with 3 linguistic Kartvelian (Goergian ) groupes: Kartvels (main group), Laz and Svanian sub-languages groupes. Modern georgians speak with  90% same language as a old georgian tribes. So, for the finally over the inutile disscussion, I propose to chnage the term "Old Georgian" to the  simple "Kartvelian Warriors" , because this will be more accurate about hystorical evidences. The term "Kartvelian" regroupe all old georgian tribes .

  9. #109

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadzreuli View Post
    Hi guys, looks like your discussion reached an impasse. I don't understand what about discuss you , are or not are the Old Georgian tribes a modern georgians ? Well, it is a question of language , that's all. Actually, old georgian language about 1500-2000 BC formed with 3 linguistic Kartvelian (Goergian ) groupes: Kartvels (main group), Laz and Svanian sub-languages groupes. Modern georgians speak with  90% same language as a old georgian tribes. So, for the finally over the inutile disscussion, I propose to chnage the term "Old Georgian" to the  simple "Kartvelian Warriors" , because this will be more accurate about hystorical evidences. The term "Kartvelian" regroupe all old georgian tribes .
    I agree with you. These are Kartvelian warriors from Kartvelian Tribes - Colchians, Chalybeans, Iberians and so on. The word "old" is my little mistake. Kartvelian Tribes from Bronze and Hellenistic era are Kartvelian people today-Direct ancestors of today's Kartvelians and speak Kartvelian languages again.
    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 05:44 AM.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Yes kartvelians still speak kartvelian languages today.You forgot the high mountains and Deep forests, the refuge of the Georgians during the conquests




    Your personal goals are obvious. remember:This is just a game !!! . I will not give a lecture to you. If you are interested, find the works of Georgian linguistics yourself. I am not obliged to educate you.This forum is not a place for linguistics.Below is the literature and you can search



    https://tsu-ge.academia.edu/GiaKvashilava
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Kartvelian_language








    p.s Kartlian unit name "kartvelni mehoni" Is it your creation?

    There is no such word in the old and modern Georgian language.
    it was not me, but im sorry, did you not refuse to talk about linguistics (and genetics) above?

    on point about spoken language = self-identification. no, wrong. spoken language and identity are not the same thing. Central Asians today speak Turkic languages. do they identify themselves as citizens of republic of Turkey? i do not think so. same goes for Russian speakers - half of Ukraine speaks Russian, do they view themselves as Russians? absolutely not. and vice versa: Byzantines spoke Greek, not Latin, and yet called themselves Roman. so i am still unconvinced im afraid. if you want to be taken seriously, show us some support of your theory that self identification remained the same throughout millennia please.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    it was not me, but im sorry, did you not refuse to talk about linguistics (and genetics) above?

    on point about spoken language = self-identification. no, wrong. spoken language and identity are not the same thing. Central Asians today speak Turkic languages. do they identify themselves as citizens of republic of Turkey? i do not think so. same goes for Russian speakers - half of Ukraine speaks Russian, do they view themselves as Russians? absolutely not. and vice versa: Byzantines spoke Greek, not Latin, and yet called themselves Roman. so i am still unconvinced im afraid. if you want to be taken seriously, show us some support of your theory that self identification remained the same throughout millennia please.
    Your comparisons are absurd!

    The Kartvelian tribes did not disintegrate into different peoples. They lived together in a small area . Slavs, Turks and so on lived on large area.

    I no longer want to answer your dilettante questions. Go, study the history of Georgia and then talk. I showed you the sources. You do not like to read. This is not my problem. goodbye


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharnavaz_I_of_Iberia


    Kingdom of Iberia c. 302 BC

    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 06:18 AM.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Your comparisons are absurd!

    The Kartvelian tribes did not disintegrate into different peoples. They lived together in a small area . Slavs, Turks and so on lived on large area.

    I no longer want to answer your dilettante questions. Go, study the history of Georgia and then talk. I showed you the sources. You do not like to read. This is not my problem. goodbye


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharnavaz_I_of_Iberia
    i do apologise, please forgive my dilettante questions. obviously i am not an expert of your caliber but an average, humble history teacher that tries to learn. i hope this makes it clear why i do not understand some of your logic. so the language does not matter then, its to do with geography now? that's why you think that Kartvelian tribes 'did not disintegrate into different peoples'? though for them not to disintegrate, it assumes that there was uniformity and unity to start with, does it not? my understanding is that they actually emerge as disparate entities and get bundled into a political unit further down the line. but that did not happen until over a thousand years later, in the middle ages when we have the rise of a first unified 'Georgian' state spanning Colchis and Iberia, no? same process took place in other places - one tribe/sub-group dominates others and forges them into a political unit/state. this then gradually leads to unification and standartisation of culture, language etc. so to assume this unity is a given would seem wrong. nations are not simply born out of thin air, they are forged (in blood and iron Bismark may have added).

  13. #113

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    i do apologise, please forgive my dilettante questions. obviously i am not an expert of your caliber but an average, humble history teacher that tries to learn. i hope this makes it clear why i do not understand some of your logic. so the language does not matter then, its to do with geography now? that's why you think that Kartvelian tribes 'did not disintegrate into different peoples'? though for them not to disintegrate, it assumes that there was uniformity and unity to start with, does it not? my understanding is that they actually emerge as disparate entities and get bundled into a political unit further down the line. but that did not happen until over a thousand years later, in the middle ages when we have the rise of a first unified 'Georgian' state spanning Colchis and Iberia, no? same process took place in other places - one tribe/sub-group dominates others and forges them into a political unit/state. this then gradually leads to unification and standartisation of culture, language etc. so to assume this unity is a given would seem wrong. nations are not simply born out of thin air, they are forged (in blood and iron Bismark may have added).

    Yes! in the Middle Ages there was one kingdom of one people - Kingdom of Georgia

    also , In the Hellenistic era there was one kingdom of one people - Kingdom of Iberia . I showed you




    Why not read what I show you? You are not interested in history and you talk nonsense. I'm waiting for you. Prove that these were not one people. Show me the sources Or stop talking!



    I'm tired of your "bla bla bla"

    Do personal goals drive you to write these lies?

  14. #114

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    You are absolutely right. The roots of nations existing today cannot be traced back to the timeframe of this mod, simply because back then Georgia-or any other state for that matter- didnt exist as a concept. These different tribes simply didnt identify as an entity, thus treating them as a nation is like calling the different celtic confederations, such as the aedui and the arverni old France.

  15. #115

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampe211 View Post
    You are absolutely right. The roots of nations existing today cannot be traced back to the timeframe of this mod, simply because back then Georgia-or any other state for that matter- didnt exist as a concept. These different tribes simply didnt identify as an entity, thus treating them as a nation is like calling the different celtic confederations, such as the aedui and the arverni old France.
    Your comparison is out of place. The French were Germanics. the Celts were Celts, They were called Gauls ,They were not Franks


    Kartvelians are Kartvelians . The names Kartvelian means Of Kartvelian origin. Kartvelian tribes were : Colchians , Iberians,Chalybeans , Mushki and others... The kartvelians kingdoms simply had different names : kingdom of colchis,kingdom of diauehi, kingdom of iberia. So it was in the Middle Ages: kingdom of imereti, kingdom of kartl-kakheti,But these were different names kingdoms of one people.

    Is it clear?
    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 07:42 AM.

  16. #116

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Your comparison is out of place. The French were Franks, the Celts were Celts, They were called Gauls . They were not Franks


    kartvelians are kartvelians .
    Your contention that the people of modern Georgia are identical to those who were living in that same location as far back as 3,000 years ago is utterly absurd.

    You would not find a single credible historian, linguist or geneticist who would agree with that assertion for anywhere in the world, but a tiny handful of the most isolated places.

  17. #117

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    The discussion is not about the ethnicity of said group. Modern day Georgia, the state of Georgia is a concept that didnt exist in the classical period. It doesnt matter whether you can trace back your ancestry to the kartvelians, which is dubious at best. There are french people who sincerely believe that they are the descendants of the gauls. It doesnt mean that we can go back in time and invent the modern concept of France which came to existence through hundreds of years of struggle and constant change.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Your contention that the people of modern Georgia are identical to those who were living in that same location as far back as 3,000 years ago is utterly absurd.

    You would not find a single credible historian, linguist or geneticist who would agree with that assertion for anywhere in the world, but a tiny handful of the most isolated places.
    Learn Georgian history and Georgian linguistics. Everything can be seen there. It was one people and had one language. After invasions slightly separated. You deny that they were not kartvelian tribes ,As the Celts, Slavs.This means that you do not know the history of Georgia.Please do not talk about what you do not know

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages
    Last edited by Khevsur; April 18, 2021 at 07:41 AM.

  19. #119

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    You dont understand. Lets assume that people inhabiting the region 3000 years ago are genetically and linguistically the same as today’s georgians. The states which the ancient kartvelians created cannot in any way, shape or form considered to be the antecedent of modern day Georgia. That would require a continous identity to exist from 1200 BC to modern day, which certainly does not.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Old Georgian Units Submod for EB II 2.35A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampe211 View Post
    You dont understand. Lets assume that people inhabiting the region 3000 years ago are genetically and linguistically the same as today’s georgians. The states which the ancient kartvelians created cannot in any way, shape or form considered to be the antecedent of modern day Georgia. That would require a continous identity to exist from 1200 BC to modern day, which certainly does not.

    Do you know the history of Georgia? You do not know the history of Georgia and nevertheless you make wrong conclusions.

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