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Thread: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

  1. #41

    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Racially discriminatory legislation? Well that's A-ok as long as it favors minorities, right? Oh how short sighted most journalists are. They are gleeful that whites will be the minority in the US by 2050 but what will happen to their precious racially motivated programs when it turns out whitey no longer has his hands on the levers of power? Of course, I don't care about any of this. Only race obsessed liberals care about any of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    So BLM is more dangerous, but are they more racist than the KKK?
    Well really who cares, if they're more dangerous who cares if they're more racist, but yes, they are.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; April 08, 2021 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Well really who cares, if they're more dangerous who cares if they're more racist, but yes, they are.
    So how many white folks have BLM lynched? How many white people's houses have BLM firebombed?
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    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    So how many white folks have BLM lynched? How many white people's houses have BLM firebombed?

    Dude, they stormed the capital building while Congress was in session. The most successful attack on the US Congress in history. Does it need to be said Congress is like 95% white?

  4. #44

    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    As a preliminary matter, I find your position to be facially racist. How dare you only care about white businesses and houses impacted by the violence, rioting, and lynching perpetrated by the BLM movement? Who cares about the whites?

    BLM has caused in excess of $1 BILLION in damages , a sizable portion of which was done to black owned businesses. Are you a racist? I have to ask because it seems you're only concerned with white peoples' houses. Seems pretty racist bro.

    Ignoring your ideologically possessed schilling, I can also say that your likely ridiculous position will ignore things like facts so that your racial feelings and virtue signalling can remain intact. I'm here to prove you wrong.

    irontaino, pathetic showing, I mean seriously. This is just an embarrassment. Propping up BLM as the new civil rights movement, really? With all the race grifting leeches attached to the movement? This is nothing but incredibly pathetic and embarassing...and I say this as someone who until recently held your posts in high regard.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; April 08, 2021 at 07:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    I remember when we only had to deal with welfare queens. Now they want help out of systemic poverty AND not to be shot by cops. Next they will want equal representation in government. Everyone I know will freak out if blacks and browns start voting.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Dude, they stormed the capital building while Congress was in session. The most successful attack on the US Congress in history. Does it need to be said Congress is like 95% white?
    I remember now, those Antifa/BLM/insert favored bogeyman here agents disguised as MAGA supporters

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    As a preliminary matter, I find your position to be facially racist. How dare you only care about white businesses and houses impacted by the violence, rioting, and lynching perpetrated by the BLM movement? Who cares about the whites?
    So no answer then? Imagine defending the KKK

    BLM has caused in excess of $1 BILLION in damages , a sizable portion of which was done to black owned businesses. Are you a racist? I have to ask because it seems you're only concerned with white peoples' houses. Seems pretty racist bro.
    To quote a famous civil rights activist that you would not have been a fan of in his lifetime: "And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity."

    Ignoring your ideologically possessed schilling, I can also say that your likely ridiculous position will ignore things like facts so that your racial feelings and virtue signalling can remain intact. I'm here to prove you wrong.
    Ah yes, the good old wHaT aBoUt BlAcK oN bLaCk CrImE argument. When you find yourself defending racists groups like the KKK, and police officers who play judge, jury, and executioner and don't have an answer for the question posed to you...one can always defer to that tired old argument.
    Fact:Apples taste good, and you can throw them at people if you're being attacked
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  7. #47

    Icon14 Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar
    I couldn't find these in the BREATHE Act or the guardian article you linked. Any other sources?
    The link you’re referring to here isn’t either of those. I guess you didn’t click it?
    So, having gone through your listed policy points, I found most of them not racist at all, the only potentially racist ones do not match what I found in the BREATHE act you linked, and many aren't even problematic as policies in and of themselves.

    I do acknowledge there is more substantial political agenda behind it and retract my previous unqualified statement, but the only thing that I find clearly reprehensible is the antisemitism packaged as antizionism that one tends to find in postcolonial thought more than I am comfortable with (cf. Achille Mbembe). In toto, I fail to see, based on the material linked, how BLM is supposed to be racist or dangerous.
    If you retracted your previous statement I’m not sure why you’d subsequently conclude that if you don’t think it’s racist, it’s not extreme. Since you were honest I’ll assume the trouble locating the source material is a simple mistake. You can rest assured that every single item I listed is completely accurate. They’re abridged, not materially altered.

    The link in the Guardian article regarding BLM’s official policy platform could be dated if that’s why you can’t find the material? I used the wayback machine to locate the original version of the half dozen policy briefs in any case; standard procedure when researching BLM. You’ll find there whatever you couldn’t locate in the Breathe link.

    To your separate point about “why it’s racist:” mileage may vary, but the idea of exclusive dispensation by race is a direct violation the Civil Rights Act, regardless of any caveats for affirmative action “preferences.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Title VI
    No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
    As much as this is a stupid position from a European point of view I can understand it
    If you like offshoot Maoists over there, that’s wonderful. Sounds like a deal, in fact.
    Also, the right cheered for Trump when he announced reductions in military presence abroad and now this is suddenly dangerous because it is proposed by a left-wing movement? Come on.
    What does Trump have to do with it?
    Public, common education is the basis of a people unified by ideals rather than skin colour or ancestors
    What’s bad about banning private education? Nothing, if freedom is a lesser value than compulsory uni(formi)ty.
    the actual paragraph on this in the BREATHE act just mentiones additional curricular content on colonialism and slavery. What's bad about that?
    How do we know what this “curricular content” will entail? The answer is because it’s already being implemented, and it’s a narrative built on lies. To acknowledge as much is not even an inherently conservative criticism:
    The New York Times, without announcement or explanation, has abandoned the central claim of the 1619 Project: that 1619, the year the first slaves were brought to Colonial Virginia—and not 1776—was the “true founding” of the United States.

    Hannah-Jones: Of course, we know that 1776 was the founding of this country. The Project does not argue that 1776 was not the founding of the country.

    This is, of course, an outright lie. Hannah-Jones has repeatedly made the “true founding” claim in innumerable Tweets, interviews and lectures. These are attested to in news articles and video clips readily available on the Internet. Her own Twitter account included her image against a backdrop consisting of the year 1619, with the year 1776 crossed out next to it.

    Ms. Hannah-Jones, caught in one lie, doubles down with new and even bigger lies. The Times journalist-celebrity not only denies her project’s central argument. In self-contradictory fashion, she also says that the “true founding” claim was just a bit of a rhetorical flourish. She told CNN that the 1619 Project was merely an effort to move the study of slavery to the forefront of American history.

    The Times is now obligated to issue a public statement acknowledging its distortion of history and the dishonest attempt to cover up its error. It should issue a public apology to Professors Gordon Woods, James McPherson, Sean Wilentz, Victoria Bynum, James Oakes and all other scholars it sought to discredit for having criticized the 1619 Project. To be perfectly blunt, Mr. Silverstein and his confederates in the editorial board of the Times should be dismissed from their posts.

    Furthermore, the Pulitzer Prize given to Hannah-Jones this spring in the field of commentary for her lead essay, in which the false claims about the “true founding” and the American Revolution were made, should be rescinded.

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../1619-s22.html
    And that’s just the pilot program. Heaven forbid we ever see the full version. Even so, the attempt to focus curricula on the centrality of slavery to US development, inherent to BLM’s worldview, is nothing new:
    This essay reviews the "New History of Capitalism" (NHC) literature with specific attention to its claims about the relationship between capitalism and slavery. While others have critiqued severe deficiencies in the empirical dimensions of this literature, I focus upon the shortcomings in its conceptualization of "capitalism." In addition to being plagued by definitional imprecision surrounding its use of the term that causes NHC scholars to conflate the slave system with laissez-faire economic doctrines, this literature generally neglects the close historical association between classical economists and abolitionism. The ensuing confusion over the intellectual history of capitalism and its relationship to the emergence of economics as a social science leads several practitioners in the NHC literature to unwittingly adopt a modern iteration of the "King Cotton" economic thesis that was advanced by radical pro-slavery "fire eaters" on the eve of the American Civil War. While the two service opposite objectives with regards to slavery itself, they are shown to adopt eerily similar diagnoses of slavery's economic position in the world. As with its Confederate-era precursor, the NHC variant of this thesis errs in its attempt to reduce the complexities of an economy to a simplistic causal relationship based upon a single slave-produced crop.

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3438828
    Slavery and US Growth

    The preceding section suggests that if slavery had been abolished nationally at the time of the Constitution, the Cotton South would have developed through family-scale farms like the rest of the country, delivering as much or perhaps more cotton to the eager textile mills of Lancashire, and building a more diverse and prosperous regional economy in the process.

    Many historians will respond that they are less interested in hypothetical histories that did not happen, preferring to focus on the undeniable fact U.S. slavery persisted and grew. The question then becomes: what was the significance of slave-based southern expansion for U.S. economic development? Beckert is in no doubt: “It was on the back of cotton, and thus on the backs of slaves, that the U.S. economy ascended in the world (p. 119). In their introduction to a recent collection, Beckert and Rockman put it even more strongly: “During the eighty years between the American Revolution and the Civil War, slavery was indispensable to the economic development of the United States (2016, p. 1).

    As with the British case, timing is crucial in assessing these claims. As discussed above, the port cities of colonial North America were intimately tied to slave-based commerce in the Atlantic economy. These trade connections revived after independence, and northeastern ports flourished during the Napoleonic Wars, at least until Jefferson’s Embargo of December 1807. The legacy of this urban and financial development clearly fostered later economic activities. If one were looking for a Williams-type transition from mercantile to industrial investment, post-Embargo New England provides a nearly ideal example. Wealthy New England merchants such as Francis Cabot Lowell turned to cotton textiles, launching the innovative Boston Manufacturing Company in 1813 (Dalzell 1987). In contrast to Lancashire, however, American textiles were designed for the protected domestic market, as opportunities in foreign trade declined. A generation later, the same New England capitalists turned their attention to railroads and development in the Midwestern states (Johnson and Supple 1967).

    Beckert and Rockman, however, along with Edward Baptist, clearly mean to include the rise of cotton in their narrative. In an earlier article, Rockman wrote: “But no matter how frequently southern slaveholders denounced bourgeois liberalism, there can be little doubt that the slave system played an indispensable role in the emergence of a national capitalist economy...the simultaneous expansion of slavery and capitalism [was] no mere coincidence” (2006, pp. 346-347). Baptist writes: “Cotton also drove U.S. expansion, enabling the young country to grow from a narrow coastal belt into a vast, powerful nation with the fastest- growing economy in the world” (2014, p. 113). In this formulation, the New Historians of Capitalism are reviving an intellectual tradition associated with Douglass North, often regarded as one of the first contributions in cliometrics. In 1961, North wrote:

    Cotton was strategic because it was the major independent variable in the interdependent structure of internal and international trade. The demands for western foodstuffs and northeastern services and manufactures were basically dependent upon the income received from the cotton trade...it was cotton which was the most important influence in the growth in the market size and consequent expansion of the economy...Cotton played the leading team role (1961, pp. 67-68, 194).

    There is just one difficulty: this Cotton Staple Growth theory has largely been rejected by cliometric research.

    Drawing on contemporary southern newspapers, railroad reports and periodicals, Diane Lindstrom (1970) confirmed Fishlow’s finding that the South provided only a limited market for imported foodstuffs: “the needs of the lower South for flour and corn were insufficient to absorb the output of these products from the upper South, to say nothing of their serving as a major outlet for western produce” (p. 113). The reason for this pattern is that most cotton plantations were themselves self-sufficient in food, planting ample corn crops to spread the fixed costs of slave labor across the year, and maintaining swine to feed the residents (Gallman 1970). Taken together, the evidence rejects the claim that “the growth of the market for western foodstuffs was geared to the expansion of the southern cotton economy” (p. 68).

    As a market for northeastern manufactured goods, the South was sizeable in the immediate aftermath of the War of 1812, but its role was never dominant and diminished over time. Using capture-recapture methods to analyze the coastal trade from New York City, Lawrence Herbst (1978) estimated that no more than 16.4 percent of northern manufacturing output went South in 1839, of which only a subset was attributable to surging exports of cotton. In her study of economic development in the Philadelphia region, Lindstrom (1978) found that manufacturers rarely sold goods in distant markets before 1840, and when they did, these markets were normally in the East. Longer-distance trade grew over time, but primarily along east-west lines. The transportation revolution hastened both western settlement and commercialization, together comprising the majority of demand growth for U.S. manufactures. Figure 8 shows that total income of the South steadily declined as a share of national income, from the Revolution to the eve of the Civil War. Even during the 1850s, the most prosperous decade in southern economic history, the region’s share of national income ticked downward from 31.4 percent to 30.5 percent, primarily because of slower population growth.

    Baptist asserts that “almost half of the economic activity of the United States in 1836 derived directly or indirectly from cotton produced by... slaves” (2014, p. 322). As Olmstead and Rhode show, this figure is an egregious overstatement, generated by double-counting outputs, inputs, asset sales and financial transactions (2018, p. 13). Cotton production accounted for about five percent of GDP at that time. Cotton dominated U.S. exports after 1820, but exports never exceeded seven percent of GDP during the antebellum period. True, cotton textiles were important for U.S. industrialization, and New England mills used the same slave-grown raw material as their competitors in Lancashire. But location within national boundaries had little economic significance for this industry. As a bulky but lightweight commodity, raw cotton travels easily, and transportation costs play little if any role in textiles geography. The protective tariff – strongly opposed by the slave South – was of far greater importance for the competitiveness of the antebellum industry (Harley 1992, 2001).

    As New Historians of Capitalism have emphasized, financial connections between the slave South and northern money markets were extensive and important, servicing not just cotton but the interstate slave trade (Schermerhorn 2015). The Natchez branch of Biddle’s Bank of the United States offered accommodation paper to planters so aggressively in the 1830s that the Bank found itself in possession of numerous slaves and several plantations after the failures of 1837 and 1839 (Kilbourne 2006). To the extent that outside credit financed moves onto better cotton land, it contributed to productivity growth. Olmstead and Rhode’s picking rate graph shows impressive gains, strongly correlated with the shift to the southwest.

    Equally evident is the fact that the rate of advance was slowing over time, as one would expect from a growth source driven by geographic shifts (albeit, augmented by improvements in cotton plants). Because overall labor supply was inelastic, the primary effect of capital inflows was to drive up the price of the limiting factor. Soaring antebellum slave prices, often taken as signs of robust performance, can also be seen as symptoms of economic dysfunction.

    It would wrap this analysis into a tidy, self-contained package to conclude that Anglo- American industrial and financial interests recognized this growing dysfunction and in response, fostered or at least encouraged the antislavery campaigns that culminated in Civil War. This is not exactly how it happened.

    Slave owners had extensive business and financial ties to northern firms, most of whom apparently felt no compunctions and would have happily continued these arrangements indefinitely. Many of the “Cotton Whigs” associated with the textiles industry cultivated personal ties with southerners in the 1830s; an English visitor to the Lawrence family was amazed at “their sympathy with the Southerners on the slavery question” (O’Connor 1968, p. 133). In his book on New York City’s elite, Beckert reports that most bourgeois New Yorkers, especially merchants and bankers, wanted to accommodate the South politically (2001, p. 85). During the secession crisis, New York Mayor Fernando Wood openly favored the city seceding from the Union and setting itself up as a free city.

    Despite these common interests, the slave South increasingly assumed the role of obstructer to a national pro-growth agenda. Not only did southerners favor low tariffs, but southern presidents vetoed seven Rivers & Harbors bills between 1838 and 1860, frustrating the ambitions of entrepreneurs in the Great Lakes states (Egnal 2009, pp. 101-122). The Dred Scott decision of 1857, apparently opening the territories to slavery, sharply depressed the share values of railroads who had plans for construction in Kansas (Wahl 2006). In the 1850s, the South stood in opposition to a Homestead Act, the Pacific Railroad, currency reform, and federal support for agricultural research and education, measures that were favored by a majority of northern farmers, as well as business interests (Ron 2016, pp. 367-374). Regional differences in economic interests and policies by no means imply that these groups had active reasons to push for abolition. But when the slave South seemed intent on expanding into new territories, perhaps even into the free states through such measures as the Fugitive Slave Act, many northerners came to believe that their economic interests were under threat. Beckert writes that a rising group of upper-class New Yorkers believed “the political power of southern slaveholders over the federal government was nothing less than a threat to the development of the United States and to their own economic wellbeing...Moreover, the political power of southern slaveholders, these businessmen began to argue, prevented necessary reforms in the banking, currency, credit, and transportation systems” (2001, pp. 90-91).

    Slave owners, for their part, were riding high in 1860, perhaps captives of their own King Cotton rhetoric, which held that the South “can defy the world – for the civilized world depends on the cotton of the South” (Wright 1978, p. 146). Evidently, they conflated elite financial success with southern economic strength. Slavery was unquestionably the basis for the former, but the opposite held true for the latter. By 1860, the civilized world still needed cotton, but it no longer needed slavery.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ehr.12962


    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar
    In toto, I fail to see, based on the material linked, how BLM is supposed to be racist or dangerous.
    You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but the listed positions are inherently extreme, as I said. As for “danger,” if you don’t see what’s dangerous about closing all US military bases, closing all federal prisons, ending capitalism in the world, etc, I can’t change your mind, nor would I try. In the real world though, we’ve already seen the results of just one teeny tiny single piece of BLM’s agenda, underway in cities across the country:
    The Minneapolis City Council on Friday unanimously approved a measure to abolish the city’s police department — a radical proposal amid nationwide efforts by activists to defund local law enforcement agencies.

    https://nypost.com/2020/06/26/minnea...-police-force/
    Violent crimes soared by 21% in Minneapolis last year, adding a painful coda to the city's struggles in coping with a deadly pandemic and widespread protests against racial injustice.

    The city recorded 5,422 violent crime incidents, including homicides, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults, according to preliminary year-end Minneapolis police statistics. That is a dramatic jump over the previous five years, which averaged roughly 4,496 such crimes. Property crime saw a more modest 10% increase.

    https://m.startribune.com/minneapoli...sts/600019989/
    It’s still early in the year, but statistics show that crime is trending up in the city of Minneapolis.

    Recent data shows that the number people wounded by gunshots is up 250% from last year (Jan. 1 to Jan. 18).

    https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/...nshot-victims/
    Minneapolis will hire dozens more police officers after the City Council on Friday agreed to release $6.4 million to bring on additional recruits.

    The unanimous vote came eight days after Minneapolis police requested the funding, saying they had 200 fewer police officers available to work than in most recent years.

    https://www.startribune.com/minneapo...ice/600022400/
    It’s a common theme among cities that moved to defund police, and this is supposed to be the main selling point in favor of BLM.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    If people don’t even like what’s in the brochure, I doubt they’ll be keen to hear about what isn’t. Question is, why are the political and corporate establishments so determined to push this unwanted and toxic product?
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Defund the Police is terrible messaging but it's only stupid because US gun laws are ridiculous. Idiots shouldn't own guns.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Oh man, it's so tough being white in the US, with being hunted down by BLM and all that.
    P.S. If we accept the Qanoneers' version of events, it's hilarious how easily was masterrace duped into storming the Capitol.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  10. #50
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The link you’re referring to here isn’t either of those. I guess you didn’t click it?
    The first link pointed to a D&D post with a random assortment of quotes from god knows where, mostly obscure stuff about supposed late effects of USSR agitprop activities. Barely anything there contained actual, current policy statements of significant BLM/M4BL representatives. If there is anything I missed there, please just quote it here in particular, so we can avoid the confusion about the rest in that linked post.

    I went by the guardian article you linked and the current version of the BREATHE act in full. If you can find me quotes from there for the claims you made, I'll be happy to acknowledge those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    If you retracted your previous statement I’m not sure why you’d subsequently conclude that if you don’t think it’s racist, it’s not extreme. Since you were honest I’ll assume the trouble locating the source material is a simple mistake. You can rest assured that every single item I listed is completely accurate. They’re abridged, not materially altered.

    The link in the Guardian article regarding BLM’s official policy platform could be dated if that’s why you can’t find the material? I used the wayback machine to locate the original version of the half dozen policy briefs in any case; standard procedure when researching BLM. You’ll find there whatever you couldn’t locate in the Breathe link.
    Why would you refer to policy statements that have explicitly been removed from the platform's websites? That sounds disingenuous. In any case these cannot be taken to be a truthful representation of their goals. You cannot just go through a movement's history and pick those positions that suit your narrative while ignoring the processes of revision and learning that have been taking place in the movement leading up to their current program. You wouldn't consider it intellectually honest to criticise the Democrats or Republicans for their election manifestos from a decade ago either, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    To your separate point about “why it’s racist:” mileage may vary, but the idea of exclusive dispensation by race is a direct violation the Civil Rights Act, regardless of any caveats for affirmative action “preferences.”
    If it is compensation for harm incurred due to being black then the reason for the compensation is the harm, not the being black. Being black is the reason (not the cause!) for the harm done by racists.


    If you like offshoot Maoists over there, that’s wonderful. Sounds like a deal, in fact.
    Where is the maoism? A vague anti-capitalism isn't immediately Maoism or Marxism or whatever Kampfbegriff suits you to label anything left of the centre.

    What does Trump have to do with it?
    If you didn't quote that sentence out of context it would have made sense.

    What’s bad about banning private education? Nothing, if freedom is a lesser value than compulsory uni(formi)ty.
    Freedom has prerequisities, among them democracy, which itself requires a certain standard of education across the entire populace. Private education is mostly used by those spreading dangerous nonsense and common education ensures everyone has access to the knowledge and understanding required to be a politically competent citizen, independent of the potentially nonsensical beliefs of their parents.

    How do we know what this “curricular content” will entail? The answer is because it’s already being implemented, and it’s a narrative built on lies. To acknowledge as much is not even an inherently conservative criticism:
    Neither is it wrong to extend the purview of US social history beyond 1776 to the beginning of slavery in the colonies, nor does your quoted article support your claim, as it is about one such 1619 proponent revising her initial position (why such revision is called a lie is beyond me.)

    And that’s just the pilot program. Heaven forbid we ever see the full version. Even so, the attempt to focus curricula on the centrality of slavery to US development, inherent to BLM’s worldview, is nothing new:


    Slavery and US Growth

    The preceding section suggests that if slavery had been abolished nationally at the time of the Constitution, the Cotton South would have developed through family-scale farms like the rest of the country, delivering as much or perhaps more cotton to the eager textile mills of Lancashire, and building a more diverse and prosperous regional economy in the process.

    Many historians will respond that they are less interested in hypothetical histories that did not happen, preferring to focus on the undeniable fact U.S. slavery persisted and grew. The question then becomes: what was the significance of slave-based southern expansion for U.S. economic development? Beckert is in no doubt: “It was on the back of cotton, and thus on the backs of slaves, that the U.S. economy ascended in the world (p. 119). In their introduction to a recent collection, Beckert and Rockman put it even more strongly: “During the eighty years between the American Revolution and the Civil War, slavery was indispensable to the economic development of the United States (2016, p. 1).

    As with the British case, timing is crucial in assessing these claims. As discussed above, the port cities of colonial North America were intimately tied to slave-based commerce in the Atlantic economy. These trade connections revived after independence, and northeastern ports flourished during the Napoleonic Wars, at least until Jefferson’s Embargo of December 1807. The legacy of this urban and financial development clearly fostered later economic activities. If one were looking for a Williams-type transition from mercantile to industrial investment, post-Embargo New England provides a nearly ideal example. Wealthy New England merchants such as Francis Cabot Lowell turned to cotton textiles, launching the innovative Boston Manufacturing Company in 1813 (Dalzell 1987). In contrast to Lancashire, however, American textiles were designed for the protected domestic market, as opportunities in foreign trade declined. A generation later, the same New England capitalists turned their attention to railroads and development in the Midwestern states (Johnson and Supple 1967).

    Beckert and Rockman, however, along with Edward Baptist, clearly mean to include the rise of cotton in their narrative. In an earlier article, Rockman wrote: “But no matter how frequently southern slaveholders denounced bourgeois liberalism, there can be little doubt that the slave system played an indispensable role in the emergence of a national capitalist economy...the simultaneous expansion of slavery and capitalism [was] no mere coincidence” (2006, pp. 346-347). Baptist writes: “Cotton also drove U.S. expansion, enabling the young country to grow from a narrow coastal belt into a vast, powerful nation with the fastest- growing economy in the world” (2014, p. 113). In this formulation, the New Historians of Capitalism are reviving an intellectual tradition associated with Douglass North, often regarded as one of the first contributions in cliometrics. In 1961, North wrote:

    Cotton was strategic because it was the major independent variable in the interdependent structure of internal and international trade. The demands for western foodstuffs and northeastern services and manufactures were basically dependent upon the income received from the cotton trade...it was cotton which was the most important influence in the growth in the market size and consequent expansion of the economy...Cotton played the leading team role (1961, pp. 67-68, 194).

    There is just one difficulty: this Cotton Staple Growth theory has largely been rejected by cliometric research.

    Drawing on contemporary southern newspapers, railroad reports and periodicals, Diane Lindstrom (1970) confirmed Fishlow’s finding that the South provided only a limited market for imported foodstuffs: “the needs of the lower South for flour and corn were insufficient to absorb the output of these products from the upper South, to say nothing of their serving as a major outlet for western produce” (p. 113). The reason for this pattern is that most cotton plantations were themselves self-sufficient in food, planting ample corn crops to spread the fixed costs of slave labor across the year, and maintaining swine to feed the residents (Gallman 1970). Taken together, the evidence rejects the claim that “the growth of the market for western foodstuffs was geared to the expansion of the southern cotton economy” (p. 68).

    As a market for northeastern manufactured goods, the South was sizeable in the immediate aftermath of the War of 1812, but its role was never dominant and diminished over time. Using capture-recapture methods to analyze the coastal trade from New York City, Lawrence Herbst (1978) estimated that no more than 16.4 percent of northern manufacturing output went South in 1839, of which only a subset was attributable to surging exports of cotton. In her study of economic development in the Philadelphia region, Lindstrom (1978) found that manufacturers rarely sold goods in distant markets before 1840, and when they did, these markets were normally in the East. Longer-distance trade grew over time, but primarily along east-west lines. The transportation revolution hastened both western settlement and commercialization, together comprising the majority of demand growth for U.S. manufactures. Figure 8 shows that total income of the South steadily declined as a share of national income, from the Revolution to the eve of the Civil War. Even during the 1850s, the most prosperous decade in southern economic history, the region’s share of national income ticked downward from 31.4 percent to 30.5 percent, primarily because of slower population growth.

    Baptist asserts that “almost half of the economic activity of the United States in 1836 derived directly or indirectly from cotton produced by... slaves” (2014, p. 322). As Olmstead and Rhode show, this figure is an egregious overstatement, generated by double-counting outputs, inputs, asset sales and financial transactions (2018, p. 13). Cotton production accounted for about five percent of GDP at that time. Cotton dominated U.S. exports after 1820, but exports never exceeded seven percent of GDP during the antebellum period. True, cotton textiles were important for U.S. industrialization, and New England mills used the same slave-grown raw material as their competitors in Lancashire. But location within national boundaries had little economic significance for this industry. As a bulky but lightweight commodity, raw cotton travels easily, and transportation costs play little if any role in textiles geography. The protective tariff – strongly opposed by the slave South – was of far greater importance for the competitiveness of the antebellum industry (Harley 1992, 2001).

    As New Historians of Capitalism have emphasized, financial connections between the slave South and northern money markets were extensive and important, servicing not just cotton but the interstate slave trade (Schermerhorn 2015). The Natchez branch of Biddle’s Bank of the United States offered accommodation paper to planters so aggressively in the 1830s that the Bank found itself in possession of numerous slaves and several plantations after the failures of 1837 and 1839 (Kilbourne 2006). To the extent that outside credit financed moves onto better cotton land, it contributed to productivity growth. Olmstead and Rhode’s picking rate graph shows impressive gains, strongly correlated with the shift to the southwest.

    Equally evident is the fact that the rate of advance was slowing over time, as one would expect from a growth source driven by geographic shifts (albeit, augmented by improvements in cotton plants). Because overall labor supply was inelastic, the primary effect of capital inflows was to drive up the price of the limiting factor. Soaring antebellum slave prices, often taken as signs of robust performance, can also be seen as symptoms of economic dysfunction.

    It would wrap this analysis into a tidy, self-contained package to conclude that Anglo- American industrial and financial interests recognized this growing dysfunction and in response, fostered or at least encouraged the antislavery campaigns that culminated in Civil War. This is not exactly how it happened.

    Slave owners had extensive business and financial ties to northern firms, most of whom apparently felt no compunctions and would have happily continued these arrangements indefinitely. Many of the “Cotton Whigs” associated with the textiles industry cultivated personal ties with southerners in the 1830s; an English visitor to the Lawrence family was amazed at “their sympathy with the Southerners on the slavery question” (O’Connor 1968, p. 133). In his book on New York City’s elite, Beckert reports that most bourgeois New Yorkers, especially merchants and bankers, wanted to accommodate the South politically (2001, p. 85). During the secession crisis, New York Mayor Fernando Wood openly favored the city seceding from the Union and setting itself up as a free city.

    Despite these common interests, the slave South increasingly assumed the role of obstructer to a national pro-growth agenda. Not only did southerners favor low tariffs, but southern presidents vetoed seven Rivers & Harbors bills between 1838 and 1860, frustrating the ambitions of entrepreneurs in the Great Lakes states (Egnal 2009, pp. 101-122). The Dred Scott decision of 1857, apparently opening the territories to slavery, sharply depressed the share values of railroads who had plans for construction in Kansas (Wahl 2006). In the 1850s, the South stood in opposition to a Homestead Act, the Pacific Railroad, currency reform, and federal support for agricultural research and education, measures that were favored by a majority of northern farmers, as well as business interests (Ron 2016, pp. 367-374). Regional differences in economic interests and policies by no means imply that these groups had active reasons to push for abolition. But when the slave South seemed intent on expanding into new territories, perhaps even into the free states through such measures as the Fugitive Slave Act, many northerners came to believe that their economic interests were under threat. Beckert writes that a rising group of upper-class New Yorkers believed “the political power of southern slaveholders over the federal government was nothing less than a threat to the development of the United States and to their own economic wellbeing...Moreover, the political power of southern slaveholders, these businessmen began to argue, prevented necessary reforms in the banking, currency, credit, and transportation systems” (2001, pp. 90-91).

    Slave owners, for their part, were riding high in 1860, perhaps captives of their own King Cotton rhetoric, which held that the South “can defy the world – for the civilized world depends on the cotton of the South” (Wright 1978, p. 146). Evidently, they conflated elite financial success with southern economic strength. Slavery was unquestionably the basis for the former, but the opposite held true for the latter. By 1860, the civilized world still needed cotton, but it no longer needed slavery.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ehr.12962
    I see the copypasta is strong with you. So someone is using a sloppy notion of capitalism to criticise it. How is that dangerous and/or racist?


    You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but the listed positions are inherently extreme, as I said. As for “danger,” if you don’t see what’s dangerous about closing all US military bases, closing all federal prisons, ending capitalism in the world, etc, I can’t change your mind, nor would I try. In the real world though, we’ve already seen the results of just one teeny tiny single piece of BLM’s agenda, underway in cities across the country:
    Most of the positions I found in the BREATHE act aren't particularly extreme, unless one views them through American far right glasses, by which everything left of the right wing of the GOP is socialism.

    If people don’t even like what’s in the brochure, I doubt they’ll be keen to hear about what isn’t. Question is, why are the political and corporate establishments so determined to push this unwanted and toxic product?
    Have you considered that noone is expecting them to put all their points into action? Even their own proponents do not expect to enact all of it:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Atlantic
    Rachel Gilmer, the chief of strategy with the Dream Defenders, another group involved with the platform’s development, stressed that ambition is necessary for enduring change. “I don’t think we can translate our entire vision into policy,” she said, “but I think we built up a platform that is comprehensive and if enacted could drastically change the conditions of black people here and around the world. This agenda really allows us to articulate our vision on our own terms. What does Black Lives Matter want?”
    source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...atform/494309/

    It may well be that people support BLM for the main point (ending police violence and latent racism against blacks) and take the rest of the political program as ballast that will likely never see realisation anyhow.
    Last edited by Iskar; April 09, 2021 at 07:46 AM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    The first link pointed to a D&D post with a random assortment of quotes from god knows where, mostly obscure stuff about supposed late effects of USSR agitprop activities. Barely anything there contained actual, current policy statements of significant BLM/M4BL representatives. If there is anything I missed there, please just quote it here in particular, so we can avoid the confusion about the rest in that linked post.
    The statements by BLM leadership and affiliated organizers are quoted directly there, along with contextual background sources. Some were geared toward that conversation, but the relevant information is all there. If you missed it or you don’t want to read it, no worries. I’ll go ahead and spoiler it here for those who do.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Soviet race-related propaganda changed after World War II. As the U.S. and the USSR competed for influence over newly independent nations in Asia and Africa, Soviet influence campaigns aimed to dissuade these countries from aligning with the U.S. by publicizing American racism, asserting the failure of American democracy and the superiority of the USSR.

    The USSR also engaged in disinformation campaigns during the Cold War and — as in 2016 — that sometimes seemed to promote multiple sides of an issue, as well as conspiracy theories. In the 1960s, just as the propaganda arm of the Soviet Union was highlighting racism in the U.S., the KGB, the Russian intelligence agency, attempted to discredit Martin Luther King, Jr., by portraying him as an “Uncle Tom” who was secretly receiving government subsidies. Similarly, in 2016, some IRA Twitter accounts mimicked the rhetoric of the Black Lives Matter movement, while others broadcasted right-wing nativist messages. Russian trolls even organized a protest and simultaneous counter-protest of the opening of an Islamic Center in Houston, taking advantage of American Islamophobia. In the 1980s, the Soviet government promoted the false news story that the AIDS virus was manufactured by American biological warfare specialists in Maryland. In 2016, Russian social media accounts promoted the Pizzagate and Uranium One conspiracy theories.

    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...cial-divisions
    The violent communist terrorist Weather Underground leadership that for years trained the founders of groups like Black Lives Matter is also tied to the communist group Progressive Labor Party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Weather Underground Wiki
    The origins of the Weathermen can be traced to the collapse and fragmentation of the Students for a Democratic Society following a split between office holders of SDS, or "National Office", and their supporters and the Progressive Labor Party (PLP).
    Quote Originally Posted by PLP Wiki
    During the 1960s, the PLP followed the international political line of the Communist Party of China and was described by commentators as "Maoist".[2] The organization carved out a niche in the anti-Vietnam War movement, with its Worker Student Alliance faction acting as rivals to the Revolutionary Youth Movement faction within Students for a Democratic Society—the latter a self-described Maoist organization that had a minority faction that later evolved into the Weather Underground.[8]
    Maoism in the United States was not exported from China. If anything, for those Maoists schooled in the Old Left the source of Maoism can be found in Khrushchev’s revelations at the twentieth Congress of the Communist Party Soviet Union in 1956 that prompted an anti-revisionist movement through- out the pro-Stalinist Left. Out of the debates within the Communist Party USA emerged several organizations pledging to push the communists back into the Stalinist camp, including the Provisional Organizing Committee (poc) in 1958, Hammer and Steel in 1960, and the Progressive Labor Party in 1965.

    The PLP, an outgrowth of the Progressive Labor movement founded three years earlier, was initially led by excommunists who believed that the Chinese had the correct position. Insisting that black workers were the ‘‘key revolutionary force’’ in the proletarian revolution, the plp attracted a few outstanding black activists such as John Harris in Los Angeles and Bill Epton in Harlem. Epton had become somewhat of a cause célèbre after he was arrested for ‘‘criminal anarchy’’ during the 1964 rebellion in Harlem.

    In another essay, which appeared in Studies on the Left in 1962, Cruse was
    even more explicit about the global character of revolutionary nationalism. He argued that black people in the United States were living under domestic colonialism and that their struggles must be seen as part of the worldwide anticolonial movement. ‘‘The failure of American Marxists,’’ he wrote, ‘‘to understand the bond between the Negro and the colonial peoples of the world has led to their failure to develop theories that would be of value to Negroes in the United States.’’ In his view, the former colonies were the vanguard of the revolution, and at the forefront of this new socialist revolution were Cuba and China.

    It was in the context of the urban rebellions that several streams of black radicalism, including ram, converged and gave birth in Oakland, Califor- nia, to the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Perhaps the most visible black organization promoting Mao Zedong thought, by some accounts they also were probably the least serious about reading Marxist, Leninist, or Maoist writings and developing a revolutionary ideology. Founded by Huey Newton and Bobby Seale, a former ram member, the Black Panther Party went well beyond the boundaries of Merritt College and recruited the ‘‘lum- penproletariat.’’ Much of the rank-and-file engaged in sloganeering more than anything else, and their bible was the Little Red Book.

    https://politicaleducation.org/wp-co...y-and-Esch.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by BLM Co-Founder in 2015
    The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk. We don’t necessarily want to be the vanguard of this movement. I think we’ve tried to put out a political frame that’s about centering who we think are the most vulnerable amongst the black community, to really fight for all of our lives.

    And I do think that we have some clear direction around where we want to take this movement. I don’t believe it’s going to fizzle out. It just gets stronger, and we see it, right. We’ve seen after Sandra Bland. We’re seeing it now with the interruption of the Netroots Nation presidential forum.

    https://therealnews.com/stories/pcullors0722blacklives
    Quote Originally Posted by BLM Co-Founder in 2018
    I think, for me, learning and reading the literature that I was given, and then living the life I was living, and then feeling like, "I have all this language. I know what racism is. I know what capitalism is. I'm living this life. What do I do with it?" I think that was the next phase for me and I was hungry for activism. I didn't know that that's what it was called then, but I was hungry for organizing. I joined, I went to a social justice camp called NCCJ, the National Conference for Community and Justice.

    I went through their youth leadership program and became a youth leader, but it still wasn't enough for me. I was like, "Cool. I'm learning more, but how do I take down local government? How do I transform systems? How do I create new pathways?" That's when I came across the Labor Community Strategy Center and the Bus Rider's Union, which is a local civil rights organization ran by an old-school organizer activist from the 60s, 70s, Eric Mann.

    I was organized into the Bus Rider's Union and I spent eleven years there where I really learned my organizing ... was trained as an organizer, base builder, someone that transforms systems. I mean, really that organization gave me my foundation. Then, I went off to start Dignity and Power Now, my local organization that took on the sheriff's department. And then a year later, I would be one of the co-founders of Black Lives Matter.

    https://www.aclu.org/podcast/patriss...es-matter-ep-4
    Quote Originally Posted by The Labor/Community Strategy Center
    The Labor/Community Strategy Center is an urban experiment to root grassroots organizing focusing in Black and Latino communities with deep historical ties to the long history of anti-colonial anti-imperialist pro-communist resistance to the U.S. empire. We teach and study history of the Indigenous rebellions against the initial European genocidal invasions, the Great Slave Haitian Revolution of the 1790s, the Great Slave Rebellions that won the U.S. civil war for the racist north as explained in W.E.B. DuBois’ Black Reconstruction in America. We appreciate the work of the U.S. Communist Party especially Black communists Harry Hayward, the African Blood Brotherhood and Cyril Briggs, Paul Robeson, Claudia Jones, Du Bois, Ben Davis, William L. Patterson, and Lorraine Hansberry. We applaud the great work of the Black Panther Party, the American Indian Movement, Young Lords, Brown Berets, and the great revolutionary rainbow experiments of the 1970s. We also have roots in the new communist movement of the 1970s and 1980s especially the August 29th Movement, I Work Kuen, Congress of African People/Revolutionary Communist League (and Amiri Baraka) and their merger into the League of Revolutionary Struggle. Eric Mann, a member of the ATM and later LRS, was the lead organizer of the U.A.W. Campaign to Keep GM Van Nuys Open, a state-wide organizer for the Jesse Jackson for President Campaign in 1984 and 1988 and an elected leader of the UAW New Directions Movement led by Jerry Tucker.

    Eric Mann is a veteran of the Congress of Racial Equality, Newark Community Union Project, Students for a Democratic Society, the United Auto Workers New Directions Movement, and now director of the Labor/Community Strategy Center and host of KPFK’s Voices from the Frontlines.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180817...tag/eric-mann/
    Quote Originally Posted by About Eric Mann

    Mann has been identified as instrumental in shaping the environmental justice movement in the U.S.[4] He is also founder of the Labor/Community Strategy Center in Los Angeles, California and has been its director for 25 years. In addition, Mann is founder and co-chair of the Bus Riders Union, identifying what is now called “transit racism” and resulting in a precedent-setting civil rights lawsuit, Labor Community Strategy Center et al. v. MTA.

    When SDS splintered into three groups in 1969, Mann, then a leader in the SDS faction, the Weathermen (Weather Underground), adopted the Revolutionary Youth Movement’s belief that violent "direct action," a euphemism for terrorism, should be used as a tactic to dismantle the group's perceived power centers of “US imperialism”.[20] Mann and 20 others were arrested in September 1969 for participation in a direct action against the Harvard Center for International Affairs, which the Revolutionary Youth Movement saw as a university-sponsored institution for counter-insurgency.[14] [21] Mann and 24 other Weathermen were charged with conspiracy to commit murder after two bullets were fired through a window of the police headquarters on November 8, 1969. Mann surrendered to the police on four counts stemming from the November 8 incident: conspiracy to commit murder, assault with intent to commit murder, promotion of anarchy, and threatening.[22] Mann was sentenced to two years in prison of which he spent 18 months in Billerica, Deer Island, and Concord State Prison (with 40 days in solitary confinement).[20] He was released in July 1971.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Mann
    Quote Originally Posted by About The Weather Underground Organization
    The FBI classified the WUO as a domestic terrorist group,[5] with revolutionary positions characterized by black power and opposition to the Vietnam War.[2] The WUO took part in domestic attacks such as the jailbreak of Timothy Leary in 1970.[6][7] The "Days of Rage" was the WUO's first riot in October 1969 in Chicago, timed to coincide with the trial of the Chicago Seven. In 1970, the group issued a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government under the name "Weather Underground Organization".

    In the 1970s, the WUO conducted a bombing campaign targeting government buildings and several banks. Some attacks were preceded by evacuation warnings, along with threats identifying the particular matter that the attack was intended to protest. Three members of the group were killed in an accidental Greenwich Village townhouse explosion, but none were killed in any of the bombings. The WUO communiqué issued in connection with the bombing of the United States Capitol on March 1, 1971 indicated that it was "in protest of the U.S. invasion of Laos". The WUO asserted that its May 19, 1972 bombing of the Pentagon was "in retaliation for the U.S. bombing raid in Hanoi". The WUO announced that its January 29, 1975 bombing of the United States Department of State building was "in response to the escalation in Vietnam".[8][9]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground
    Quote Originally Posted by BLM Official Position on Israel
    The policy platform titled A Vision for Black Lives, is a wide-spanning document that was drafted by more than 50 organizations known as the Movement for Black Lives. It goes beyond criminal justice and touches on many issues including education and economics.

    In the Invest/Divest section of the platform, the group criticizes the US government for providing military aid to Israel.

    “The US justifies and advances the global war on terror via its alliance with Israel and is complicit in the genocide taking place against the Palestinian people,” the platform says. “Israel is an apartheid state with over 50 laws on the books that sanction discrimination against the Palestinian people.”

    This characterization drew ire from pro-Israel commentators, and in the week since its release many have penned op-eds and statements condemning the movement.
    On his personal Medium page, the CEO of the Anti-Defamation League Jonathan Greenblatt wrote that, while he agreed with the majority of the document, he called the treatment of Israel “one-sided” and “unfair”.

    “We categorically reject the document’s criticism of the United States and Israel,” he wrote. “It’s repellent and completely inaccurate to label Israel’s policy as ‘genocide’.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...israel-critics
    Another activist tied between the need to “abolish the police” to abolishing “the Zionistic state of Israel” and “the United States government,” to cheers from the crowd.
    Also speaking at the event was a pro-North Korean activist, who said: “I believe that within our lifetime, Palestine will be yours again and Korea will be one again! The United States of America and all of its puppet governments will be no more!”

    At another “Day of Rage” event in Washington, DC, protesters linked Black Lives Matter and the Palestinian cause, chanting “Israel, we know you, you murder children, too.”

    The march, from the Lincoln Memorial to the Capitol building, was led by a Harvard student, Christian Tabash, who read a poem about Israel’s crimes against Palestinian Muslims, according to the Washington Examiner. The poem referred to Israel as “puppet master of continents,” an age-old conspiracy theory that Jews run the world.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-bro...israel-and-us/
    Quote Originally Posted by BLM Organizer
    “I don’t care if someone decides to loot a Gucci or a Macy’s or a Nike store, because that makes sure that person eats,” Ariel Atkins, a BLM organizer, said. “That makes sure that person has clothes.”

    “That is reparations,” Atkins said. “Anything they wanted to take, they can take it because these businesses have insurance.”

    https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...onday/2320365/
    Quote Originally Posted by BLM UK Fundraiser
    We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
    Quote Originally Posted by BLM Canada
    In addition to fighting against anti-Blackness, we create spaces to build our community. Through alternative forms of education, programming events for our communities, and supporting cultural creation, we believe that we create our own liberation through our commitment to thrive and build beautifully, in spite of the ugliness surrounding us. .

    In our movement for Black liberation, we join calls to decolonize Turtle Island and Nunavut Nunangat. Our struggles are tied up with the struggles of the Indigenous people of the land on which many of our ancestors were brought and forced into brutalization—a living apocalypse. There is no Black Liberation without Indigenous Liberation on Turtle Island.
    https://blacklivesmatter.ca/
    Quote Originally Posted by BLM Official Statement
    The Black Lives Matter Global Network is as powerful as it is because of our membership, our partners, our supporters, our staff, and you. Our continued commitment to liberation for all Black people means we are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

    We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

    We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

    We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

    https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/


    I went by the guardian article you linked and the current version of the BREATHE act in full. If you can find me quotes from there for the claims you made, I'll be happy to acknowledge those.
    You don’t need to acknowledge anything if you don’t want to. Implying that unless I copy/paste several pages’ worth of information into the thread and collate it for you, I fabricated/misrepresented it, isn’t an argument so much as it is a deflection. The guardian article provides the direct link to the policy briefs and discusses an aspect of the platform.
    Why would you refer to policy statements that have explicitly been removed from the platform's websites? That sounds disingenuous. In any case these cannot be taken to be a truthful representation of their goals. You cannot just go through a movement's history and pick those positions that suit your narrative while ignoring the processes of revision and learning that have been taking place in the movement leading up to their current program. You wouldn't consider it intellectually honest to criticise the Democrats or Republicans for their election manifestos from a decade ago either, would you?
    Impugning my motives by inference isn’t worth dissecting. If you have evidence BLM no longer supports policies they’re actively working with dozens of other groups to implement, feel free to provide it. Dismissing source material because you may have trouble with links is nonsensical. Here’s the wayback link to the ancient era of 2016-2020.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160801...litical-power/

    If it is compensation for harm incurred due to being black then the reason for the compensation is the harm, not the being black. Being black is the reason (not the cause!) for the harm done by racists.
    >the law doesn’t apply if I think there’s a good reason to fundamentally violate it
    Where is the maoism? A vague anti-capitalism isn't immediately Maoism or Marxism or whatever Kampfbegriff suits you to label anything left of the centre.
    If you have to ask at this point, you may be uninformed about the issue at hand.
    If you didn't quote that sentence out of context it would have made sense.
    No it doesn’t. Responding “what about Trump?” When presented with unrelated policy information from an activist group suggests you wish to defend said policies but don’t really have an effective way of doing so, other than to redirect attention away from them.
    Freedom has prerequisities, among them democracy, which itself requires a certain standard of education across the entire populace. Private education is mostly used by those spreading dangerous nonsense and common education ensures everyone has access to the knowledge and understanding required to be a politically competent citizen, independent of the potentially nonsensical beliefs of their parents.
    >Private education is dangerous
    >Closing all federal prisons, all military bases, dismantling capitalism through “liberation movements,” etc etc, is not.
    Neither is it wrong to extend the purview of US social history beyond 1776 to the beginning of slavery in the colonies, nor does your quoted article support your claim, as it is about one such 1619 proponent revising her initial position (why such revision is called a lie is beyond me.)

    I see the copypasta is strong with you. So someone is using a sloppy notion of capitalism to criticise it. How is that dangerous and/or racist?
    More deflections and red herrings.
    Most of the positions I found in the BREATHE act aren't particularly extreme, unless one views them through American far right glasses, by which everything left of the right wing of the GOP is socialism.
    >Superlative policy positions far outside the political mainstream are not extreme if I don’t think they are.

    Also, BLM is an American group seeking to implement policies in America. The only “glasses” that matter are American ones.
    Have you considered that noone is expecting them to put all their points into action? Even their own proponents do not expect to enact all of it:
    source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...atform/494309/

    It may well be that people support BLM for the main point (ending police violence and latent racism against blacks) and take the rest of the political program as ballast that will likely never see realisation anyhow.
    Seems you’re determined to defend BLM by dismissing and downplaying the group’s policy positions. Self-defeating IMO.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  12. #52
    Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Is BLM more racist and dangerous than the KKK or Q Anon or Antifa

    Just to be clear. Since MTG is a GOP rep and her platform includes Q is real and CrossFit being the only right way to work out, that means the GOP supports inane conspiracies and seeks to put an end to jogging?

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