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Thread: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

  1. #1

    Default Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Let's assume that polis are not a scarce resource (I know they are just pretend) is there any downside to building those in a given territory outside of not being able to benefit from a specific building (Ex: Gold Route) or being harmed by a specific building (Ex: Foreign Garrison)? What about a situation like the Palace of Fire? Could I Hellenize the province and then switch over to an autonomous government? (Basically pull a tribute state --> to governed province in reverse?)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    You absolutely can! For example you can upgrade Sparta's poleis to a metropoleis, then tear down the factional government and build up to a Closely Allied Democracy. Wait for the player or AI Agiad Reforms and boom: 6 units of Lakedaimonian Hoplites recruitable from Sparta. You can go even further with settlements outside of Hellas and stack poleis, allied governments, and foreign military garrisons on top of each other for uber-recruitment. Just remember that a level 3 poleis excludes any foreign military garrison from being built, and a level 2 or above foreign military garrison excludes any poleis from being established.

    Here's an itemized list of pros and cons to hellenization:

    Pros:
    - "Locks in" Hellenistic Polities to whatever percentage the current level of poleis provides. Say you established a poleis (49%) in a region. Even if a non-Hellenistic Polities faction conquers it, not only would they never be able to lower HP lower than 49%, they also suffer a 10% happiness malus from the poleis (15% for a metropoleis)!
    - Cheap garrison units in the form of Hellenistic skirmishers, slingers, and archers.
    - pre-requisite for most Hellenistic upper-tier governments.

    Cons:
    - level 3 poleis excludes any level of foreign military garrison.
    - level 2 poleis or above results in happiness malus for higher levels of foreign military garrisons.

    If you're fine with never building foreign military garrisons, then hellenizing your entire empire is the way to go. Snag those metropoleis-containing regions and kickstart the great greek diaspora!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    You absolutely can! For example you can upgrade Sparta's poleis to a metropoleis, then tear down the factional government and build up to a Closely Allied Democracy. Wait for the player or AI Agiad Reforms and boom: 6 units of Lakedaimonian Hoplites recruitable from Sparta. You can go even further with settlements outside of Hellas and stack poleis, allied governments, and foreign military garrisons on top of each other for uber-recruitment.
    That stacking of polis and Allied Government was removed a while back for anyone who can recruit from the polis.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    That stacking of polis and Allied Government was removed a while back for anyone who can recruit from the polis.
    What? You can't build poleis after the allied government, but that's not what he's saying. He's saying build an occupied/supervised/factional government first, then build poleis, then demolish the occupational/supervised/factional government and simply build an allied democracy or oligarchy. I've done that dozens of times in my latest campaign for Makedonia alone and I wish I had done that in earlier campaigns, but I didn't understand this or have patience for long term building programs.

    It's worth the wait! Especially in Anatolia, Thrace, and the Pontic Steppe where you can combine first to second level poleis, first level local military garrisons, and allied governments for an awesome combination of troops for recruitment, including various heavy infantry and horse archers.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    What? You can't build poleis after the allied government, but that's not what he's saying. He's saying build an occupied/supervised/factional government first, then build poleis, then demolish the occupational/supervised/factional government and simply build an allied democracy or oligarchy. I've done that dozens of times in my latest campaign for Makedonia alone and I wish I had done that in earlier campaigns, but I didn't understand this or have patience for long term building programs.

    It's worth the wait! Especially in Anatolia, Thrace, and the Pontic Steppe where you can combine first to second level poleis, first level local military garrisons, and allied governments for an awesome combination of troops for recruitment, including various heavy infantry and horse archers.
    I'm saying the double recruitment is gone. Factions who can recruit from the polis get less units in an Allied Government in Greece.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    You absolutely can! For example you can upgrade Sparta's poleis to a metropoleis, then tear down the factional government and build up to a Closely Allied Democracy. Wait for the player or AI Agiad Reforms and boom: 6 units of Lakedaimonian Hoplites recruitable from Sparta. You can go even further with settlements outside of Hellas and stack poleis, allied governments, and foreign military garrisons on top of each other for uber-recruitment. Just remember that a level 3 poleis excludes any foreign military garrison from being built, and a level 2 or above foreign military garrison excludes any poleis from being established.

    Here's an itemized list of pros and cons to hellenization:

    Pros:
    - "Locks in" Hellenistic Polities to whatever percentage the current level of poleis provides. Say you established a poleis (49%) in a region. Even if a non-Hellenistic Polities faction conquers it, not only would they never be able to lower HP lower than 49%, they also suffer a 10% happiness malus from the poleis (15% for a metropoleis)!
    - Cheap garrison units in the form of Hellenistic skirmishers, slingers, and archers.
    - pre-requisite for most Hellenistic upper-tier governments.

    Cons:
    - level 3 poleis excludes any level of foreign military garrison.
    - level 2 poleis or above results in happiness malus for higher levels of foreign military garrisons.

    If you're fine with never building foreign military garrisons, then hellenizing your entire empire is the way to go. Snag those metropoleis-containing regions and kickstart the great greek diaspora!
    Awesome. This was great information. I appreciate your help.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    From what i see native government and colony exist merely as stopgap for hellenic faction since it gives less income,less building option and mostly inferior recruit if compared with hellenic goverment which is a bit of a shame since i like having variety of unit especially now that we can recruit persian cataphract.

    Doesn't help by now native barracks lv2 require city as oppose of large town which means at early game most of recruit come from existing hellenic colony and polis or goverment building.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    There are places where you want highest level of native colony. The southwest Anatolia, where you can get Aswar i Kweshawandan and Skaplinai come to mind...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    There are places where you want highest level of native colony. The southwest Anatolia, where you can get Aswar i Kweshawandan and Skaplinai come to mind...
    Ehh Skaplinai are too elite and too few to make a good missile unit i much prefer cretan archer which can be recruit in hellenic colony lv2 in anatolia coastline(Alexandria all the way into Halikarnosos) or directly from cretan island.

    While as much as i like persian cataphract it require me to upgrade into large city first which take quite a while before i could recruit them so most of the time i rely on xystophoroi due to their massive area of reruitment and decent availability

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by eyelurker View Post
    Ehh Skaplinai are too elite and too few to make a good missile unit i much prefer cretan archer which can be recruit in hellenic colony lv2 in anatolia coastline(Alexandria all the way into Halikarnosos) or directly from cretan island.

    While as much as i like persian cataphract it require me to upgrade into large city first which take quite a while before i could recruit them so most of the time i rely on xystophoroi due to their massive area of reruitment and decent availability
    You let them take casualties? They're first of all ranged units, they go to melee only as last troops (they're pretty good for last ditch attack though).

    They're available in colonies over much of Balkans, as well as from merc pool. I have no trouble keeping a couple of these in several armies.

    Well, by the time Iranian heavy cavalry becomes available, Thorakitai reforms hit, and Xystophoroi are replaced by Aispidotai Hippeis that trade the punch for staying power.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    You let them take casualties? They're first of all ranged units, they go to melee only as last troops (they're pretty good for last ditch attack though).

    They're available in colonies over much of Balkans, as well as from merc pool. I have no trouble keeping a couple of these in several armies.

    Well, by the time Iranian heavy cavalry becomes available, Thorakitai reforms hit, and Xystophoroi are replaced by Aispidotai Hippeis that trade the punch for staying power.
    Well enemy missle tend to target my missle or sometime if enemy sucessfully flank they target my missle first and auto resolve always generate casualties.

    I usually recruit mercenary cretan archer for my hellenic ranged unit and since usually i never need more than 2 missle unit i find just recruiting cretan archer to be more convinient also because cretan archer are more tight so they takes less space.

    Eh Aispidotai Hippeis still fills a role of medium cavalry that are highly replacable and easy to retrain which is more than good enough

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by eyelurker View Post
    From what i see native government and colony exist merely as stopgap for hellenic faction since it gives less income,less building option and mostly inferior recruit if compared with hellenic goverment which is a bit of a shame since i like having variety of unit especially now that we can recruit persian cataphract.

    Doesn't help by now native barracks lv2 require city as oppose of large town which means at early game most of recruit come from existing hellenic colony and polis or goverment building.
    Not a stopgap; there are places where that's the highest factional government you can build. Then the question becomes is it better than an Allied Government?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Not a stopgap; there are places where that's the highest factional government you can build. Then the question becomes is it better than an Allied Government?
    In region like Getai and Arabia strangely enough while you don't get access to native government you do get access to hellenic recruitment which mean that you have to hellenized it to properly governed the area if you don't want to install allied government.

    Only region in Parthia (and only as Ptoleamioi region of Ethiophia) that give no benefit in hellenizing but do get access to native goverment.

    Which is why i think native goverment as merely as a stopgap while you wait for colony and hellenic culture to increase since in most region where you can build native goverment is also a region where it make for a good hellenic goverment in the future

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    I guess this is kind of in line with the whole topic...what is the best "build" for a province (that's not gong to become a capital or semi-capital) where you want to get the best possible native troops mixed with some hellenic ones WITHOUT having to rely on a client ruler? So, say, you're Epirus or Macedonia, and you've conquered Thrace. Is the "evolved" or 2nd tier Laarchia the best answer? With a foreign soldier colony? And a small Hellenistic Colony? Or should I aim for an epistatei epi Hellenas (eventually after taking Syria)?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    I guess this is kind of in line with the whole topic...what is the best "build" for a province (that's not gong to become a capital or semi-capital) where you want to get the best possible native troops mixed with some hellenic ones WITHOUT having to rely on a client ruler? So, say, you're Epirus or Macedonia, and you've conquered Thrace. Is the "evolved" or 2nd tier Laarchia the best answer? With a foreign soldier colony? And a small Hellenistic Colony? Or should I aim for an epistatei epi Hellenas (eventually after taking Syria)?
    Supervised hellenic administration are actually the best one if you want to incorporate both native and hellenic because the goverment building give you native recruit while your hellenic recruitment come from colony and polis.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    I guess this is kind of in line with the whole topic...what is the best "build" for a province (that's not gong to become a capital or semi-capital) where you want to get the best possible native troops mixed with some hellenic ones WITHOUT having to rely on a client ruler? So, say, you're Epirus or Macedonia, and you've conquered Thrace. Is the "evolved" or 2nd tier Laarchia the best answer? With a foreign soldier colony? And a small Hellenistic Colony? Or should I aim for an epistatei epi Hellenas (eventually after taking Syria)?
    There is no Supervised Native Administration as Epeiros any more.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Ok, last follow-up question: what then is the point of foreign military colony in the context of the western hellenistic kingdoms? If supervised hellenic administration is the more or less "ideal" end gov for a province, and other areas with greek poleises would have an end goal of actually making those small cities to metropolises, where do foreign military colonies fit in?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is there ever a downside to Hellenizing a province?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Ok, last follow-up question: what then is the point of foreign military colony in the context of the western hellenistic kingdoms? If supervised hellenic administration is the more or less "ideal" end gov for a province, and other areas with greek poleises would have an end goal of actually making those small cities to metropolises, where do foreign military colonies fit in?
    They don't require colonists and are a good way to get additional quality troops (especially cavalry) out of places you aren't Hellenising. They become particularly pertinent for post-Federal reform Epeiros, who can no longer send out Hellenistic colonists.

    A Supervised Hellenic Admin isn't "ideal" everywhere, there are places polis and Hellenistic Colony don't provide particularly useful options. As in they're not worth the investment of those colonists.

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