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Thread: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

  1. #1

    Default Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Dear Netizens,
    I wish to draw attention the the very real phenomena that is a change in phenotype among Swedish people, first to some measured evidence:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Swedish_women
    This would indicate a decrease in sexual dimorphism among their population.
    Second is the decreasing age of puberty combined with rapid growth, noticeably in young males.
    From my observation, Swedes mature and age quickly, they look college age by middle school and look 30 by the time they graduate high school.
    I speculate rapid growth is present in other Scandinavian countries and the western world too to varying degrees.
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2738259
    Also a discussion on this matter over a decade ago:
    https://www.thelocal.se/discuss/inde...howtopic=12589

    If you cannot understand what I am talking about I will show two photos for comparison:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Above are Swedes in 1975
    *One is Norwegian/German ancestry.

    TRIGGER WARNING:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Ages 45, 14, 45, 17

    Swedes today

    The main topics I want to discuss are:
    1. Is this change happening elsewhere in the world?
    2. What forces are driving this? Environmental causes or genetic selection?
    3. Is this effect reversible?
    4. What else will result from this?
    5. How long until the popular image of Swedish people is adjusted?
    6. Are there regional differences? Could they be used to isolate the factors responsible for the above?

    My hypotheses are:
    -Marriages but with social changes favoring early blooming men and women reproducing.
    -Social changes favoring greater reproductive success of less dimorphic women (the Hilary Clinton effect).
    -Cultural differences: Perpetual adolescence is frowned upon, acting like an adult favors adult looking reproductive success.
    -Selection for height via earlier and more significant growth is responsible.
    -For lack of better phrasing "big sexy men" are taking more of the women. Competition from very high male to female ratios among the younger generation are one reason.

    Edit:

    Personal observations of phenotype from graduation photos:
    Swedes: Ages the fastest, women look largest.
    Norwegians: Youngest appearance, but some are large, judging by the way the cast of Skam look now, their softer appearance compensates for much of the early maturity.
    Danes: Vary from Swedish to regular European, maybe it depends on what region the person is from.
    Finns: erm....I don't know, kinda oldish looking too.
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; March 22, 2021 at 10:37 PM.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  2. #2

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    The breeder's equation:



    Where:

    R is the response to selection of a trait in a given generation.

    h is the heritability of a particular phenotype, for example, heritability of height is .79 (79%)

    S is the selection differential, that is the percentage increase or decrease in net reproductive success per generation relative to the general population.

    I assume you see the relevance. The challenge is in collecting the data to feed into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Personal observations say in the USA, people are getting taller, but individuals are softer and lankier than previous generations.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...ticle-renderer
    According to this study, since the 19th century dimorphism has increased in euro-Americans.
    What phenomena can we isolate in the USA to contrast against Europe?
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  4. #4
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    One of those 1975 Swedes is Norwegian/German by ancestry/birth, and therefore non representative of the average Abba member at that time.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  5. #5

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    One of those 1975 Swedes is Norwegian/German by ancestry/birth, and therefore non representative of the average Abba member at that time.
    Noted.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  6. #6

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Speaking to a friend of mine, I learned he can tell Canadian born Chinese just from their looks, including first generation.
    If there is a non-genetic cause for difference in morphology, it could be viral or chemical, or environmentally triggered changes to development.
    Are Nordics raised outside northern Europe different looking?
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  7. #7

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    Speaking to a friend of mine, I learned he can tell Canadian born Chinese just from their looks, including first generation.
    If there is a non-genetic cause for difference in morphology, it could be viral or chemical, or environmentally triggered changes to development.
    Are Nordics raised outside northern Europe different looking?
    I think most of it has to do with nutrition - until recently, (if my memory serves me correctly) Euro-Americans tended to be taller and altogether larger than their European relatives, due to being raised in an environment where healthy food was more abundant and/or a more balanced diet was easier to come by. With Chinese, it's even more recent. If you look at pictures of Europeans and Asians from the 19th and the first half of the 20th century (and I'm sure official records will corroborate this), they are more petite than their present-day descendants. Anectodally, I can tell you that it's also possible to differentiate between Middle-Easterners who've grown up in their home region and those who've grown up in Europe. The latter tend to be more similar to the local natives in terms of size. Another example would be black Americans (specifically those with roots in the slave population) juxtaposed with blacks who grew up in Africa. There's this stereotype in Western media of black people being huge in all dimensions, however if you look at most Africans, they're not actually very tall or wide.
    I also remember reading somewhere that South Koreans are on average 10 cm taller than North Koreans, despite being the same ethnicity.
    Aside from the issue of malnutrition sensu stricto, there's probably also different nutrition as well.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    I think most of it has to do with nutrition - until recently, (if my memory serves me correctly) Euro-Americans tended to be taller and altogether larger than their European relatives, due to being raised in an environment where healthy food was more abundant and/or a more balanced diet was easier to come by. With Chinese, it's even more recent. If you look at pictures of Europeans and Asians from the 19th and the first half of the 20th century (and I'm sure official records will corroborate this), they are more petite than their present-day descendants. Anectodally, I can tell you that it's also possible to differentiate between Middle-Easterners who've grown up in their home region and those who've grown up in Europe. The latter tend to be more similar to the local natives in terms of size. Another example would be black Americans (specifically those with roots in the slave population) juxtaposed with blacks who grew up in Africa. There's this stereotype in Western media of black people being huge in all dimensions, however if you look at most Africans, they're not actually very tall or wide.
    I also remember reading somewhere that South Koreans are on average 10 cm taller than North Koreans, despite being the same ethnicity.
    Aside from the issue of malnutrition sensu stricto, there's probably also different nutrition as well.
    Noted, I am fascinated by the part about different nutrition.

    Just a note: North Koreans look different from South Koreans, there is regional variation in Korea.
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; March 20, 2021 at 01:04 PM.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  9. #9
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Another example would be black Americans (specifically those with roots in the slave population) juxtaposed with blacks who grew up in Africa. There's this stereotype in Western media of black people being huge in all dimensions, however if you look at most Africans, they're not actually very tall or wide.
    Actually that does not make sense. There is a reason at least in the US slavery survived the end of the Trade. The diet of a slave might have been boring and repetitive but it was in fact likely better than that of some poor Irish off the boat type strait from the famine in some slum in NYC. Slave owners were cruel and racist and anything you might want to add... but they were not pouring their human capital down the drain by underfeeding people they expected to work hard all day. That what gilded age capitalists discovered they could do because now it was a free contract with labor.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Actually that does not make sense. There is a reason at least in the US slavery survived the end of the Trade. The diet of a slave might have been boring and repetitive but it was in fact likely better than that of some poor Irish off the boat type strait from the famine in some slum in NYC. Slave owners were cruel and racist and anything you might want to add... but they were not pouring their human capital down the drain by underfeeding people they expected to work hard all day. That what gilded age capitalists discovered they could do because now it was a free contract with labor.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Black Americans are bigger on average than regular black Africans, I'm sure there are statistics on that.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    I think most of it has to do with nutrition
    Also environmental effects on the endocrine system to which diet is a contributing factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #12

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    I have been looking at stories of twins adopted and raised apart, and many do have different heights and facial features. While a portion of it could be separate developmental trajectories once the embryo splits, this suggests a non-genetic factor, a post-natal one, cannot be ruled out.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  13. #13

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    I would like to point out here that there is no evidence for (ethnic) Swedes aging any faster than other nations, let alone genetically and environmentally very close groups such as Norwegians. It would be quite surprising as well, given a number of factors. Swedes have one of the highest life expectancies in the world, one of the lowest prevalences of smoking in the developed world and a relatively low alcohol consumption for northern Europeans. They are also physically active and excercise a lot, although I base that claim solely on my subjective experience of being quite familiar with the country.

    What is known, however, is that people are extremely subjective and unreliable in telling another person's age. The shape of ones face (that changes drastically in post-puberty at least for northern Europeans), countenance, dress, grooming, and completely subjective preferences of appearance by the observer play a great role. And it surely gets harder when different ethnicities and cultural backgrounds are involved. I admit that I find it hard to estimate Asian people's age and I think that I mostly err on the side of underestimating their age. Most likely because certain clues of advancing age in northern Europeans are not that often present in Asians.

    The only thing that I can think of that might contribute to perceived aging in Swedes might be that many of them are quite affluent and willing to travel to warmer climates and to get a tan. The combination of very fair skin and much sun tanning is known to age the skin. I would be very interested in this phenomenon if it was a thing, but right now we only have a single person's subjective perception that Swedes age quicker.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    I should also add that none of those pictures tell me anything about anyone's aging. To me they look like normal northern Europeans that I have grown up around.

  15. #15
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I should also add that none of those pictures tell me anything about anyone's aging. To me they look like normal northern Europeans that I have grown up around.
    You grew up around ABBA?

    What was that like?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  16. #16

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I would like to point out here that there is no evidence for (ethnic) Swedes aging any faster than other nations, let alone genetically and environmentally very close groups such as Norwegians. It would be quite surprising as well, given a number of factors. Swedes have one of the highest life expectancies in the world, one of the lowest prevalences of smoking in the developed world and a relatively low alcohol consumption for northern Europeans. They are also physically active and excercise a lot, although I base that claim solely on my subjective experience of being quite familiar with the country.

    Small differences in genes translates to large outcomes. But you are right there is no hard proof, this thread is only speculation.

    What is known, however, is that people are extremely subjective and unreliable in telling another person's age. The shape of ones face (that changes drastically in post-puberty at least for northern Europeans), countenance, dress, grooming, and completely subjective preferences of appearance by the observer play a great role. And it surely gets harder when different ethnicities and cultural backgrounds are involved. I admit that I find it hard to estimate Asian people's age and I think that I mostly err on the side of underestimating their age. Most likely because certain clues of advancing age in northern Europeans are not that often present in Asians.

    What I've written is misleading. So I will be more specific: Swedes seem to me to perceivably age faster. This is not in the sense of "poor aging". I have suggested Norwegians may grow in a similar way too but their softer features absorbs much of the effects. The real question shouldn't be why are Swedes aging fast, but why they are growing larger and more peramorphic each generation as shown by the second link. I doubt quantity of nutrition and medicine are the explanation.

    I would be very interested in this phenomenon if it was a thing, but right now we only have a single person's subjective perception that Swedes age quicker.

    And the forum thread I linked to where other posters commented on the older appearance of Swedes.
    I looked at one of the graduation photos again, the non-native Swedes had similar features, and right now I am leaning towards a non-genetic explanation being one of the components.

    (Please do not mistake my replies as having an argumentative tone.)
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; March 21, 2021 at 11:21 PM.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  17. #17

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015...-people-planet
    In Dutch society, a shorter man has less luck. Are large peramorphic men taking all the women in Sweden?
    Then it makes sense Pewdiepie's wife is from another country.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  18. #18
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    I'm not entirely sure that using individual visual examples to illustrate your postulated scenario is academically sound.

    Given the likelihood of individuals deviating from the mean in any given sample of people.

    Certainly using ABBA, Princess Victoria (And a pregnant princess at that) and some random family from a Volvo advert to visualise any larger trend in body shape or size doesn't make a lot of sense, as all of those people probably fall within a fairly normal shape and size for people in both times stated in the OP - as in you could find people who match all of those physical characteristics both in1975 and present day Sweden, and Norway, and probably Britain, and the United States, and Australia for that matter.

    I understand you're looking at broader changes in physical characteristics over time - which is not only uncontroversial, but probably likely. But the images don't actually support any argument of that sort. They're just random images of people with no real meaning in this context.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  19. #19

    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I'm not entirely sure that using individual visual examples to illustrate your postulated scenario is academically sound.

    Given the likelihood of individuals deviating from the mean in any given sample of people.

    Certainly using ABBA, Princess Victoria (And a pregnant princess at that) and some random family from a Volvo advert to visualise any larger trend in body shape or size doesn't make a lot of sense, as all of those people probably fall within a fairly normal shape and size for people in both times stated in the OP - as in you could find people who match all of those physical characteristics both in1975 and present day Sweden, and Norway, and probably Britain, and the United States, and Australia for that matter.

    I understand you're looking at broader changes in physical characteristics over time - which is not only uncontroversial, but probably likely. But the images don't actually support any argument of that sort. They're just random images of people with no real meaning in this context.
    The Dutch are taller than Filippinos, but you can find tall and short individuals in both societies. How should I present examples?
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  20. #20
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changes in the phenotype of Swedish and Europid individuals and implications thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    The Dutch are taller than Filippinos, but you can find tall and short individuals in both societies. How should I present examples?
    You don't need to present meaningless non-representative visual examples that don't actually support your hypothesis. Only trends, statistics, data are required.

    And when we're talking genetics, even nationalities and cultural identities are only of coincidental relevance - there being no genetic basis for culture. But then we're talking changes occurring over 1 or 2 generations, so I don't think we're seeing selective breeding here. If anything, we're seeing nutrition and standard of living allowing for potential to be realised.

    Or, if I was to go by the pictures, changes in clothing fashion.
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