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Thread: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

  1. #1

    Default Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Something that sort of confuses me here, when I win heroic victories, the rewards for winning such victories against greater numbers/superior quality army do not net me any substantual benefits when compared to winning decisive vicotries. I ask why?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Any suggestions on what should the player get?

    Be in mind, that great victories already give your Generals more chances of better command traits and also money for capturing the enemy camp.
    On my future submod, there will also be a new ancillary that your (Carthaginian) Generals get which will allow them to have a nice event if they are close to the capital.

  3. #3
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Be in mind, that great victories already give your Generals more chances of better command traits
    There's the problem right there. It shouldn't be by chance. It should just automatically award that general an additional command star, at the very least due to his fame in winning a battle against all odds for his people. That sort of thing endears a general to the men. Even Publius Ventidius Bassus couldn't be hidden away by Mark Antony if the latter had been jealous about his victories against Parthia.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by realm56 View Post
    Something that sort of confuses me here, when I win heroic victories, the rewards for winning such victories against greater numbers/superior quality army do not net me any substantual benefits when compared to winning decisive vicotries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    There's the problem right there. It shouldn't be by chance. It should just automatically award that general an additional command star, at the very least due to his fame in winning a battle against all odds for his people.
    I agree here with realm56 and Roma_Victrix. There really should be a substantial reward for those victories. Some of those engagements are, well, engaging for the player with a distinct feeling of achievement, and not getting anything out of it is something of an anticlimax. The original Rome: Total War also left a marker on the map, if I remember correctly, and that is a good example of how you can reward the player. That may not be feasible due to engine limitations and all, but extraordinary success should be rewarded in some way that is feasible within the confines of the engine.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    I think so as well, I mean, Heroic victories are not something i get every 5 battles, for me its like 1-15 battles. And really they must not be "heroic" if my general does not even get a command star, or a trait that allows him to recruit units at a cheaper price. I mean, people followed Pyrrhus because of his great victories right? and just because his name. Yet in game for winning something like this you get nothing really.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    I think the problem is that its very vigor related if I remeber correcctly from checking the files. Like the change to get the traits are often factored a lot by the vigor of the char. So a great victory gives you the trait guaranteed if vigor was high, but chances lowered quickly with lower vigors. Maybe the behaviour should be more like that for normal victories and decisive/heroic victories have much higher floors regarding the chances.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  7. #7
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Personally I think you guys should create an entirely new trait in the "export_descr_character_traits" file specifically for heroic victories. This hypothetical trait should probably come with three different tiers, with +1 command star and +1 morale points for the first tier, until the third tier where your general is made a national hero with +3 command stars and +3 morale points after scoring three separate heroic victories. Surely that's something easy to script, right? It's not very complex in terms of triggers, since the only trigger for the trait would be heroic victories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I agree here with realm56 and Roma_Victrix. There really should be a substantial reward for those victories. Some of those engagements are, well, engaging for the player with a distinct feeling of achievement, and not getting anything out of it is something of an anticlimax. The original Rome: Total War also left a marker on the map, if I remember correctly, and that is a good example of how you can reward the player. That may not be feasible due to engine limitations and all, but extraordinary success should be rewarded in some way that is feasible within the confines of the engine.
    Agreed, although Medieval II Total War and by extension EBII already have the heroic victory battle site marker, in the form of two crossing swords that display the names of the commanding generals and the year the battle was fought when you hover your mouse cursor over it.

  8. #8
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    The original Rome: Total War also left a marker on the map, if I remember correctly, and that is a good example of how you can reward the player.
    Also Med2 engine leaves the markers, but I think the number of those markers is limited (to 5?). Anybody know if this can be modded?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Personally I think you guys should create an entirely new trait in the "export_descr_character_traits" file specifically for heroic victories. This hypothetical trait should probably come with three different tiers, with +1 command star and +1 morale points for the first tier, until the third tier where your general is made a national hero with +3 command stars and +3 morale points after scoring three separate heroic victories. Surely that's something easy to script, right? It's not very complex in terms of triggers, since the only trigger for the trait would be heroic victories.
    I quite like this proposal, however, I might also add an additional condition to achieving these tiers if your casualties from such battles are low (You only get these tiers if your casualties is less than 20% for instance, the AI already has a more difficult time generating high command generals in most instances (Nomadic generals are a key exception to this due to some their unique traits such as the Bala) and your suggestion has the very real potential to let the player snowball out of control when it comes to good generals.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    I'd be a bit concerned that such a change would be disproportionately advantageous to the player, since pulling off heroic victories isn't that difficult, depending on the particular unit composition, terrain, and so on, but is very unlikely to happen in AI battles. A small immediate bonus at best, I'd say.

    I also assume it is implicit in this discussion here that different factions would be affected differently. For example, for nomadic peoples it might well be expected that they win regular heroic victories against their settled neighbours, whereas a Celtic leader winning a heroic victory against those filthy Latin-speakers should make them a legend right there and then.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Personally I think you guys should create an entirely new trait in the "export_descr_character_traits" file specifically for heroic victories. This hypothetical trait should probably come with three different tiers, with +1 command star and +1 morale points for the first tier, until the third tier where your general is made a national hero with +3 command stars and +3 morale points after scoring three separate heroic victories. Surely that's something easy to script, right? It's not very complex in terms of triggers, since the only trigger for the trait would be heroic victories.
    The benefits you suggest are too high and there are also already many traits that are influenced by victories. I could work on something but I would need some more feedback. There are also quite a few traits like the Famous General one that is influenced by heroic victories and other traits.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    I don't know where you got the idea that heroic victories are not rewarded, FLs get lot of progress in their authority trait and any general has a very good chance of getting very good command traits. Just win several heroic victories and look at the traits afterwards, there will be some changes there for sure. In the past I've heavily exploited river crossings to achieve heroic victories and got many good traits out of it.

  13. #13
    Domaje's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Also Med2 engine leaves the markers, but I think the number of those markers is limited (to 5?). Anybody know if this can be modded?
    I read that there can be a maximum of 10 at the same time, but I know I had a campaign where there was more than that, maybe between 12-15. So if it is true there is a limit, it's more than that.

    Else, I agree with Roma_Victrix that there should be a trait for victories. And maybe with different rewards depending on factions, to adress the fact that some factions have a State army while others are tribal.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Also Med2 engine leaves the markers, but I think the number of those markers is limited (to 5?). Anybody know if this can be modded?
    On my current campaign, I have at least 10 of those markers.

  15. #15
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domaje View Post
    Else, I agree with Roma_Victrix that there should be a trait for victories. And maybe with different rewards depending on factions, to adress the fact that some factions have a State army while others are tribal.
    In the SSHIP we've got a following trait:
    Code:
    ;========================================================= Victor Virtue;------- Victor Virtue -----------------------------------
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trait VictorVirtue
     Characters family
    
    
     Level Victor_Fame1                             ; Renowned Victor
       Description Victor_Fame1_desc
       EffectsDescription Victor_Fame1_effects_desc
       GainMessage Victor_Fame1_gain_desc
       Threshold 6 
    
    
       Effect Authority 1 
       Effect PersonalSecurity -1 
       Effect LocalPopularity 1 
    
    
     Level Victor_Fame2                              ; Famous Victor
       Description Victor_Fame2_desc
       EffectsDescription Victor_Fame2_effects_desc
       GainMessage Victor_Fame2_gain_desc
       Threshold 12 
    
    
       Effect Authority 2 
       Effect PersonalSecurity -1 
       Effect LocalPopularity 2 
    
    
     Level Victor_Fame3                              ; Glorious Victor
       Description Victor_Fame3_desc
       EffectsDescription Victor_Fame3_effects_desc
       GainMessage Victor_Fame3_gain_desc
       Epithet Victor_Fame3_epithet_desc
       Threshold 18 
    
    
       Effect Authority 3 
       Effect PersonalSecurity -2 
       Effect LocalPopularity 3
    Code:
    ;-------------------------------------------------------- Victor Virtue (quality of battles won);-- points(thresholds): 6,12,18
    ; triumph in big battles
    ; and famous cities captured - triggers in relevant setion
    ; in a battle against the odds victory: standard 2, clear 4, crushing 6
    ; a city taken: 1-2, famous city: +1/2
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Battle_Standard_AnyOdds
     WhenToTest PostBattle
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
           and BattleSuccess < clear
           and BattleOdds < 2.0
           and NumFriendsInBattle > 750 
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 1 Chance 100
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Battle_Standard_AgainstOdds
     WhenToTest PostBattle
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
           and BattleSuccess < clear
           and BattleOdds < 0.8
           and NumFriendsInBattle > 750 
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 1 Chance 100
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Battle_Clear_AnyOdds
     WhenToTest PostBattle
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
           and BattleSuccess = clear
           and BattleOdds < 2.0
           and NumFriendsInBattle > 750 
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 2 Chance 100
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Battle_Clear_AgainstOdds
     WhenToTest PostBattle
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
           and BattleSuccess = clear
           and BattleOdds < 0.8
           and NumFriendsInBattle > 750 
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 2 Chance 100
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Battle_Crushing_AnyOdds
     WhenToTest PostBattle
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
           and BattleSuccess > clear
           and BattleOdds < 2.0
           and NumFriendsInBattle > 750 
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 3 Chance 100
     
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Battle_Crushing_AgainstOdds
     WhenToTest PostBattle
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
           and BattleSuccess > clear
           and BattleOdds < 0.8
           and NumFriendsInBattle > 750 
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 3 Chance 100
    
    
    ;additional to the previous triggers so only one
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Siege_AgainstOdds
     WhenToTest PostBattle
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
           and BattleSuccess >= clear
           and I_ConflictType Siege
           and GeneralNumKillsInBattle > 6
           and BattleOdds <= 0.9
           and NumFriendsInBattle > 500 
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 1 Chance 100
    
    
    ;additional to the previous triggers so only one
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger VV_Triumph_In_Capture
     WhenToTest GeneralCaptureSettlement
    
    
     Condition WonBattle
    
    
     Affects VictorVirtue 1 Chance 100
     Affects ArmyCost -5 Chance 100
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    I don't know where you got the idea that heroic victories are not rewarded, FLs get lot of progress in their authority trait and any general has a very good chance of getting very good command traits. Just win several heroic victories and look at the traits afterwards, there will be some changes there for sure. In the past I've heavily exploited river crossings to achieve heroic victories and got many good traits out of it.
    This idea came from the numerous battles I have had against small rebel stacks using outnumbered cavalry patrols led by inexperienced FMs with both nomadic and non-nomadic compositions , it just feels that the rate in which I get good command traits are little different to if I won clear victories or maybe I am just getting unlucky with getting good command traits.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Another aspect of the problem is that not all heroic victories should be rewarded. If you are the attacker, leading a very inferior army should be regarded as a reckless risk, and so a serious misconduct, indepedently of the result of the battle.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    As some have mentioned, this feels too much like it would be a reward for the player that would give them an even bigger advantage over the AI.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erken View Post
    Another aspect of the problem is that not all heroic victories should be rewarded. If you are the attacker, leading a very inferior army should be regarded as a reckless risk, and so a serious misconduct, indepedently of the result of the battle.
    That is also a very fair point to make which was part of the rationale I put up for adding the low casualty rate condition for Victrix's original proposal for a heroic victory oriented trait line. Not all of your military gambles may work out as fortunately as you hope they would. Perhaps depending on the faction, there could be trait lines that punish repeat occurrences these sort of reckless decisions whether that may be political repercussions (ie. For Rome, especially if the commander in question lacks imperium) or personality changes (ie. higher risk of acquiring Believes he's Divine for Hellenes if he is militarily inexperienced).
    Last edited by realm56; March 19, 2021 at 03:43 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Heroic victories not sufficently rewarded ingame.

    I agree that heroic victories could be abused for the player, in the sense that AI is never gonna get those with autoresolve.

    Attacking in a position that is gonna make a heroic victory possible though is indeed reckless. Part of been a good commander is picking your battles properly.

    I wonder though if it isn't more problematic the fact of how hard is to groom commanders, where it feels more luck than anything. I know there are many factors involved, but you can totally have guys with good "stats" leading your war effort for years and winning many battles/conquering a bunch of regions and they still sit at 2 command, maybe 4 if conditionals apply.

    Though arguably outside of autoresolve confidence is much more important/stronger than command I believe. But it feels odd nonethess.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


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