Hyper v Native when you can’t get a satrapy as Bactria

[Shlazaor]

What is the advantage of having a hyper versus a native government when you can’t upgrade a royal administration into a satrapy? What is the advantage vice versa? It seems like on paper I’d always choose native due to the 15% happiness but maybe it has something to do with the culture conversion? Is there ever a scenario where a satrapy is preferable over a Hellenic Gov. besides the Patris upgrade? Thanks for your time to anyone who can answer.

[Hellenikon]

I'm not sure if this is correct, as I'm going from memory. Satrapies are only available in certain regions, which are sort of "regional capitals". The rest of the provinces get the hyparchias (spelling). The satrapies are the equivalent to the hyparchies, but are restricted to more urbanized and significant regions of the achaemenid empire.

If you can't upgrade to a satrapy, it's because that region is not considered a regional center but a local province, so it will never be able to have a satrapy. The main difference between hyparchies and native govs is that the latter don't allow hellenistic colonies.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hyparchia/Satrapy is an either/or, provinces can either be one or the other. The Satrapy is one of the higher tier governments, the Hyparchia is one of the lowest, which affects construction options.

[Shlazaor]

Right I understand that. I'm asking what is the advantage of a Hyper v Native, Native v Satrap and Satrap v Hellennic?

[eyelurker]

Right I understand that. I'm asking what is the advantage of a Hyper v Native, Native v Satrap and Satrap v Hellennic?

Hyper are trash since native give the same local recruitment but with public order bonus and native can be transitioned into supervised hellenic(which you want to do to any hellenized non satrapy) while hyper cannot.

Satrapy and supervised hellenic are same tier but satrapy allow you to upgrade into basilike patris while supervised hellenic give trade bonus and no happiness penalty.

[Shlazaor]

Hyper are trash since native give the same local recruitment but with public order bonus and native can be transitioned into supervised hellenic(which you want to do to any hellenized non satrapy) while hyper cannot.

Satrapy and supervised hellenic are same tier but satrapy allow you to upgrade into basilike patris while supervised hellenic give trade bonus and no happiness penalty.

Okay that is what I thought I just wanted to make sure. So basically hyper is useless once you reform into a kingdom? I guess I am also little confused on what situations I should be promoting foreign settlers and what situations I should promote Greek ones? Should I always go Greek if I have the option and then always go foreign when I don't?

[torf]

As QuintusSertorius said, the Hyparchia offer some better options of construction than Native administration.

When I play as Baktria, I keep at the start the Hyparchia for thoses better construction options. But if the public order become a real problem in Marakanda, I build a Laarchia instead of it. To try to solve the public order problem I use my most influent family member as governor to increasse slowly the hellenic culture.

[Shlazaor]

As QuintusSertorius said, the Hyparchia offer some better options of construction than Native administration.

When I play as Baktria, I keep at the start the Hyparchia for thoses better construction options. But if the public order become a real problem in Marakanda, I build a Laarchia instead of it. To try to solve the public order problem I use my most influent family member as governor to increasse slowly the hellenic culture.

Okay some Hyper = better buildings. Native = better public order. Is it a viable strategy then to tier up buildings through hyper's and then convert to native afterwards? Also: I guess I am also little confused on what situations I should be promoting foreign settlers and what situations I should promote Greek ones? Should I always go Greek if I have the option and then always go foreign when I don't? Or do I just prefer foreign garrisons in places where I want those native troop sources?

[QuintusSertorius]

Hellenistic colonisation is limited by your access to colonists and the level of Hellenisation of a place. So it should be a strategic choice, you're not going to Hellenise everywhere. By contrast, you can put Foreign Colonies where you like and they'll give you some reasonably good non-Hellenistic units (especially cavalry). They're not natives, for the most part, so they give you different troops to the governments. It's a good way to broaden your roster of options.

[torf]

they'll give you some reasonably good non-Hellenistic units (especially cavalry).

For the infantry, the pantodapoi phalangitai won't be avaible in Baktria's starting provinces, in the patch. It's not a problem for steppe battles, that will need more cavalry and some quick infantry support (the phalangitai are too slow for this type of battle).

But when you will start to fight again seleucids and Gandhara, you will have to conquer some seleucids province at the south of your starting provinces to recruit thoses units.

[QuintusSertorius]

Which reminded me to correct the error that has Pontic Hoplites in central Asia in the Foreign Colony, which should be Baktrioi...

[Shoebopp]

Which reminded me to correct the error that has Pontic Hoplites in central Asia in the Foreign Colony, which should be Baktrioi...

Wait you're telling me Baktrioi hoplites will be available from foreign military garrisons? OMG OMG OMG. On a serious note I thought that the availability of Pontikoi hoplites in Baktria was a nod to Ionian settlers who settled east but still fought as hoplites. Some other mods based on the Hellenistic period did this

[Jervaj]

Hellenistic colonisation is limited by your access to colonists and the level of Hellenisation of a place. So it should be a strategic choice, you're not going to Hellenise everywhere. By contrast, you can put Foreign Colonies where you like and they'll give you some reasonably good non-Hellenistic units (especially cavalry). They're not natives, for the most part, so they give you different troops to the governments. It's a good way to broaden your roster of options.

Are foreign colonies viable at all in asia though as an hellenistic power? Due to converting to Eastern Imperial. Baktria already has an issue with public order due to the hellenic culture been scarce in the area, this seems would exarcebate it. Maybe with the exception of some places where your culture is already so low that it would barelly lower more, though I have seen losses even when it starts low.

[Shoebopp]

Are foreign colonies viable at all in asia though as an hellenistic power? Due to converting to Eastern Imperial. Baktria already has an issue with public order due to the hellenic culture been scarce in the area, this seems would exarcebate it. Maybe with the exception of some places where your culture is already so low that it would barelly lower more, though I have seen losses even when it starts low.

I suspect that cultural conversion to one culture comes at the expense of the highest culture other than itself. This may happen even if that other culture is already lower than the converting culture. For example, in a hypothetical province with 30% Eastern Imperial, 25% Hellenistic Polities, and 45% a mix of others not exceeding 25%, a level 2 foreign military colony would still drop Hellenistic Polities in order to increase Eastern Imperial.

Anyways, if cultural conversion as Baktria is a high priority for you, only welcome family members with Unselfish and Charismatic into your bloodline. Hellenistic family members will accrue an entire host of bad traits if they are Selfish or Uncharismatic, which tank influence among other stats. Also make sure they are loyal - family members with low loyalty may acquire the Royal Spy ancillary which drops influence by a hefty 3. For younger family members, plop them into a school until they reached Cultured, then immediately finish their education. Any more bookworming will cause them to become a Erudite, which no longers gives an influence bonus (although its tax and trade bonus might be useful in some situations). Finally, try to have your FL stay in a settlement in need of cultural conversion while the FH goes out conquering. Once the FL dies the FH takes his spot facilitating cultural imperialism. This way the current FL always has high influence due to his reputation as a conquerer as well as the FL trait.

[QuintusSertorius]

Wait you're telling me Baktrioi hoplites will be available from foreign military garrisons? OMG OMG OMG. On a serious note I thought that the availability of Pontikoi hoplites in Baktria was a nod to Ionian settlers who settled east but still fought as hoplites. Some other mods based on the Hellenistic period did this

Most of the "Hellenistic" settlers in the east were actually Hellenised Anatolians and Iranians. But in this instance, that was a genuine error. That's the only means by which settled factions can recruit the Baktrian elites.

Are foreign colonies viable at all in asia though as an hellenistic power? Due to converting to Eastern Imperial. Baktria already has an issue with public order due to the hellenic culture been scarce in the area, this seems would exarcebate it. Maybe with the exception of some places where your culture is already so low that it would barelly lower more, though I have seen losses even when it starts low.

The first tier certainly can be viable in places you weren't intending to Hellenise, and want some decent cavalry to expand your options.

Someone mentioned upthread that the pools are different in the patch, which is correct. They've been completely rewritten.

[Shlazaor]

Would hellenizing India lose me elephants?

[QuintusSertorius]

Would hellenizing India lose me elephants?

No, but it would get you precious few Hellenistic units. It's a waste of scarce resources.

[Shlazaor]

No, but it would get you precious few Hellenistic units. It's a waste of scarce resources.

Thanks!

[Shoebopp]

Spending hellenistic colony points in India does yield Indo-Greek Hoplites, Indo-Greek Cavalry, Indo-Greek Medium Infantry, and Baktrian Horse-Archers.. though India is too far away from frontlines to be a recruitment hub. You can get the Indo-Greek troops anyways from foreign military colonies there which don't require points, don't convert to Eastern Imperial because it's India, and enables the Hyparcheia government I think