Doing away with mechanics generals

[Shlazaor]

Does anyone think that mechanics for the Rome, Seleukia, Ptolamaoi and Carthage are more of a fun depressing game mechanic than they are a fun uplifting roleplaying mechanic? With Carthage you basically only have one general due to elections. Rome requires travel that is simply unrealistic. Ptolemaoi and Seluekia basically guarantees your king is stuck in the capital. Seleukia and Ptolemaoi are a little better because you can at least campaign with your heir before settling down in your capital for retirement and rulership, which seems to balance the roleplay and gameplay mechanics, but Carthage and Rome are basically just an annoyance. With both factions it would seem to make more sense to simply keep the bonus of the elections without having any of the malus involved with them. That way you can still enjoy the mechanic without the entire faction being dragged down. Maybe for Seleukia and Ptolemaoi (whose mechanic I find annoying but not prohibitive like Rome/Carthage) you could simply add a minor bonus instead of a malus? That way you have an incentive to play along but its not a huge deal if you want to free range some. Anyways, just a suggestion, no hate intended by it.

[eyelurker]

Rome are actually okay since for Rome preator and consul(combined with pro) have 24 turns as general and if you give them province governor they got 20 turns as imperator.

Carthage are kinda sad though because while the war is going on(which can go for a very long time) the election of shopet can shut down because everyone eligible become general. Their Carthage citzenship and aristocrat and commoner mechanic are also a mess since only Carthage aristocrat can elect office but getting citzenship are boils down to rng waiting and good luck if you're general are commoner.

Seleucid didn't seems to mind having their king explore a bit since babylon tend to be content and can afford to miss akitu for awhile but Ptoelamic seems to be really pushy to make sure their king stay in capital so my king never leave alexandria.

[Jervaj]

The main problem is travel to be honest. Like realistically for Rome they would actually have to go to Rome more often. But the given character would do so in afraction of what a turn is, while in game it takes you at least a full turn and easily several as soon as you start getting a bit farther.

For Carthage I dont know, I thought for egnerals specifically they didnt always need to go back to Carthage, but knowledge there is rather limited.

[Shlazaor]

The main problem is travel to be honest. Like realistically for Rome they would actually have to go to Rome more often. But the given character would do so in afraction of what a turn is, while in game it takes you at least a full turn and easily several as soon as you start getting a bit farther.

For Carthage I dont know, I thought for egnerals specifically they didnt always need to go back to Carthage, but knowledge there is rather limited.

The travel times is indeed the exact problem with Rome's mechanics. I don't hate the concept but it's simply not feasible from a gameplay perspective the vast majority of the time. Carthage does not require travel but any general who is not the elected War Leader generally gets a "not elected by the camp" modifier which crushes their command and makes it impossible to get command stars. That essentially restricts them to one general, albeit generally a very good one, at a time. There are obviously exceptions, but by and large that is the case. I just find that mechanic very fun depressing, and frankly, wildly inaccurate from an historical perspective. While the Second Punic War may have been a bit of a one man show with Hannibal, the First Punic War had numerous noteworthy Carthaginian commanders. It just seems to me that the cons, fairly drastically, outweigh the pros with both mechanics.

[Lusitanio]

The travel times is indeed the exact problem with Rome's mechanics. I don't hate the concept but it's simply not feasible from a gameplay perspective the vast majority of the time. Carthage does not require travel but any general who is not the elected War Leader generally gets a "not elected by the camp" modifier which crushes their command and makes it impossible to get command stars. That essentially restricts them to one general, albeit generally a very good one, at a time. There are obviously exceptions, but by and large that is the case. I just find that mechanic very fun depressing, and frankly, wildly inaccurate from an historical perspective. While the Second Punic War may have been a bit of a one man show with Hannibal, the First Punic War had numerous noteworthy Carthaginian commanders. It just seems to me that the cons, fairly drastically, outweigh the pros with both mechanics.

That's wrong. For Carthage you can elect the War leader but then you need to keep your Generals in Carthage for them to get elected secondary and main General.

[Septentrionalis]

The micromanagement associated with the elections and all that, including the travel time needed to sail to a destination, is one of my very few serious gripes with the mod. I can understand how such can give some players a sense of finesse and immersion, getting to deal with administrative issues on a detailed level. From a role-playing perspective, someone having to travel for a full three-month turn to Rome from a neighboring region (and abandon their duties for that time) just to be eligible for office makes no sense.

As I have said before, it would also be really great if we could display some key stats of the governors automatically, so players would not have to keep track of things such as governing ability manually.

[Hellenikon]

I agree, having to manually move characters back and forth to be elected isn't good gameplay. The time it takes to come and go also isn't reasonable.

I think a compromise could be to teleport the eligible candidate next to the city in question (perhaps using internal labels, like "consul candidate"). Then the travel to go back would be done normally, no teleporting to the frontline. That would cut in half the time needed to go, get the office, and make use of it before it expires.

The trait could be called "summoned to rome", and offer a yes/no event when you choose whether to accept it. Maybe there is no event and characters choose on their own to accept or refuse, based on how selfish/ambitious they are.

[Domaje]

I never had any problem moving my generals as Rome. You're so rich you can have a fleet in every port, and with them no part of the Mediterranean is at more that 4 turns of travel, which means you have 20 turns then to conquer a settlement or two.

But Hellenikon's suggestion is interesting.

[Shlazaor]

I agree, having to manually move characters back and forth to be elected isn't good gameplay. The time it takes to come and go also isn't reasonable.

I think a compromise could be to teleport the eligible candidate next to the city in question (perhaps using internal labels, like "consul candidate"). Then the travel to go back would be done normally, no teleporting to the frontline. That would cut in half the time needed to go, get the office, and make use of it before it expires.

The trait could be called "summoned to rome", and offer a yes/no event when you choose whether to accept it. Maybe there is no event and characters choose on their own to accept or refuse, based on how selfish/ambitious they are.

My guess is that would be difficult to mod but I'd take just about anything over the current situation. It's honestly been my only big gripe about the game so far. I don't mind things being difficult but I don't particularly care for them being obnoxious. Anyways, just my 2cents. Beaten the horse dead enough at this point. Fantastic mod overall.

[Imperator Caesarian]

I for one love it. It adds immersion. You can always play a different mod. Meanwhile for people like us, who wants as much immersion as possible we love it. It’s only fair, making things simpler is default. Games often are simple in Vanilla. There should be a mod for people that like role play/immersion like us. Let us have this one mod please. You have plenty of others to choose. Go play De Bello Mundi. It pisses me off when people complain about this. If EB removes these mechanics, what other mod can we play? Go play Rome 2, it has no RP, one of my biggest issues with it. I mean you can act like you are role playing, which I did lol. I recommend you people play Rome 2, or DBM. Please don’t take these out. And don’t forget, this mod is a hardcore mod. Not for everyone.

[Imperator Caesarian]

Another compromise is playing another mod/game. This mod is for hardcore immersion gamers I think. You take this out, what other mod can we play?

[bordinis]

This mod was not created for gameplay, even battles are not for gameplay. Units are not for gameplay and so on.

[QuintusSertorius]

I agree, having to manually move characters back and forth to be elected isn't good gameplay. The time it takes to come and go also isn't reasonable.

I think a compromise could be to teleport the eligible candidate next to the city in question (perhaps using internal labels, like "consul candidate"). Then the travel to go back would be done normally, no teleporting to the frontline. That would cut in half the time needed to go, get the office, and make use of it before it expires.

The trait could be called "summoned to rome", and offer a yes/no event when you choose whether to accept it. Maybe there is no event and characters choose on their own to accept or refuse, based on how selfish/ambitious they are.

Scripting that would be a nightmare, not least because if the character concerned was in a settlement at the time, it would create a game-breaking clone of them.

You're perfectly at liberty to use the console commands to teleport characters back to Rome for election. We won't send the ninjas round to hurt you if you do.

[Shlazaor]

I for one love it. It adds immersion. You can always play a different mod. Meanwhile for people like us, who wants as much immersion as possible we love it. It’s only fair, making things simpler is default. Games often are simple in Vanilla. There should be a mod for people that like role play/immersion like us. Let us have this one mod please. You have plenty of others to choose. Go play De Bello Mundi. It pisses me off when people complain about this. If EB removes these mechanics, what other mod can we play? Go play Rome 2, it has no RP, one of my biggest issues with it. I mean you can act like you are role playing, which I did lol. I recommend you people play Rome 2, or DBM. Please don’t take these out. And don’t forget, this mod is a hardcore mod. Not for everyone.

I'm just gonna say this real quick. I think criticizing my take as "you just ain't historically immersive enough bro, you ain't hardcore enough bro, learn 2 rp bro" is weak as heck. First, while the concept is historically accurate, in practice it's not remotely realistic because the travel times are absurd. The way this mechanic plays out in practice is not historically accurate. Period. Second, this game isn't even remotely complicated compared to most mainstream Paradox games. It's not a hard game. I'm not criticizing the mechanic because it requires some extra micro. I personally love how I have to shepherd my younglings to institutions of learning for example. I'm not taking issue with the pretender king mechanic would be another example. Third, I roleplay basically every game I play. Often times even to the extent that I harm my overall strategy for the sake of the storyline. The problem is that, as I mentioned in my first point, this mechanic unequivocally doesn't play out in a way that is historically accurate. So when I have a concept that doesn't accurately reflect either the real world, and is an albatross on gameplay, I don't think intellectual honest to say it's anti roleplay to critique it.

All that being said, I reflect that it is immersive FOR YOU and for the creators as well. At the end of the day this is their mod, they can do as they damn well please.

[Imperator Caesarian]

I mean it is historically accurate. Roman leaders at time had to decide how to get back to Rome. Some would skip Triumphs for other gain. It was annoying for them too. This mod is supposed to reflect that. Like I said you should play DBM, its like a watered down version of EB. You don't have to travel to Rome to be elected I think. That seems like the best option, I just wish EB had forts like DBM.

[Jervaj]

I mean it is historically accurate. Roman leaders at time had to decide how to get back to Rome. Some would skip Triumphs for other gain. It was annoying for them too. This mod is supposed to reflect that. Like I said you should play DBM, its like a watered down version of EB. You don't have to travel to Rome to be elected I think. That seems like the best option, I just wish EB had forts like DBM.

I think that when he says unnacurate he means about the "time" it takes in game comparatively to reality. The limitations mean that to follow cursus honorum the characters have to be away from the job they are actually supposed to be doing for many months.

To be honest though, Quintus suggestions is not that bad. It means you would only lose 1/4th of the year. Though it may be a chore to do that for a bunch of characters.

[Roma_Victrix]

Scripting that would be a nightmare, not least because if the character concerned was in a settlement at the time, it would create a game-breaking clone of them.

You're perfectly at liberty to use the console commands to teleport characters back to Rome for election. We won't send the ninjas round to hurt you if you do.

That's what I did during my 1000-turn Romani campaign. You simply have to cheat if you want to keep things realistic and not waste a bunch of valuable time for your character as a general or governor. At a certain point it got ridiculous having to spend up to two years (8 turns) for a general to reach Rome from the frontier provinces of Anatolia/Syria, Nubia/Arabia, Germania/Britannia, or Portugal/Morocco all the way back to Rome for a single election. In reality, this would have taken about a month of travel whereas one turn in the game EBII equals three months!!!

"Praetor of Sicily" claims he wants realistic immersion. LOL. No you don't, what you're demanding is entirely unrealistic even for the logistics of the ancient world. What you're demanding is just a silly weight to placed around the neck of the player for no apparently good reason other than Quintus' concern about scripting. At least that's an argument.

[Hellenikon]

A short term solution for you guys is what Quintus said, use the console commands. In particular, use character_reset this on your general, and keep moving him until he reach rome and is elected. This woudl represent 3-4 months, which is more reasonable for going to rome and coming back to asia minor, for example.

[Septentrionalis]

My suggestion is to skip the requirement for the game characters to be physically present in Rome. We can just roleplay that if they were elected, it means that they had at some point visited Rome and left their governing duties to a second. If needed, we could also exclude campaigning generals and only accept those who spend the turn within Roman settlements. And possibly some other limitations, if deemed necessary.

I do not think it is all that immersive that so much attention revolves around getting these guys transported in time to Rome. Sometimes it feels like I am running a taxi service, and it really becomes a chore. And as for realism, I do not recall this being an issue in history. It is not like Caesar would leave Alesia for the Gauls because he needs to spend a year or two participating in an election.

[QuintusSertorius]

Caesar broke the law standing for election without returning to Rome.