[GS Event] TAG Semi Finals - Match II

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · July 21, 2021, 05:03 PM

I don't agree with the decision and I also don't understand it. There is a clear issue here and it will again not be addressed..

I also don't agree with 'it was always fine in the past' or 'this is nothing new'. For sure, but this is a unique situation. It happens because of a lot of coastal lands + islands. In most other hotseats you will not even encounter something like this. As Jadli said once before, in a tournament like this, it's all about small margins between good players. And exactly that small margin of 1 sea tile is a very big deal in the war between Thrace and Sparta, and the reason we approached the admin about this unbalance.
I'm deeply frustrated with the role of the admin in this case. It's not like we complain about it after losing something. We expressed our concern about this unbalance even before it happened. It was not taken seriously then, and no action was taken. Now it is just bound to blow up. Whatever decision is taken, 1 team will end up being very disappointed.

I'm not worried about our spot as a team in this tournament and hotseat. Sparta and Egypt are still going very strong, and quite technically we have basically already secured our pass to the finals, but I agree with my partner here. Perhaps I'd also prefer to resign in protest rather than accept this preposterous decision

**Your Total War Master** · July 22, 2021, 07:39 AM

I would argue that the move from jimmy is legal, but would also advise banning mercs from 1v1/2v2v2/or any similiar tournament esque stuff

**Your Total War Master** · July 22, 2021, 07:40 AM

And for disbanding:
Its rly similar to rome 1s mechanic of moving population from town to town so I would argue that its a feature

**Isenbard** · July 24, 2021, 12:09 PM

It's not a bug, it's a feature

-Todd Howard

**Jadli** · July 25, 2021, 07:52 AM

Chieftain, joerock,

Well, its unfortunate you guys feel this way, but the decision is how it is, i.e., what I said in my post, and its not going to change under a threat of resignation... that would just undermine the rules of the tournament here...

I believe its time to play on, unless you guys really want to resign

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · July 25, 2021, 01:28 PM

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how to deal with that Thracian fleet. Any way we slice it, it seems impossible to approach it from our side, because of the turn order tricks. Thrace on the other hand can easily approach our fleet, because he is in control of the mercs..... (because of turn order)

We talked about this before, we've clearly expressed our concern about this. But apparently no one seems to be bothered by it except us.

We believe this is still a major issue. Say we get a new fleet, how do we approach the Thracian fleet? Are Thrace, Sparta and Egypt on equal footing to fight a naval war?
We just don't see it, but since no one else can spot any issues in the current rules, please explain it to both of us so we can apply it ingame.

**jimmy_dude** · July 25, 2021, 06:58 PM

I've been doing some thinking about your last point, in how to approach this from Sparta's/Egypt's point of view, and I think it's doable but it just requires a fair bit of homework and planning. It seems to me that through a combination of leaving ships in range of mercenary ships but not other ships, using ports to defend ships, and knowing which regions even have mercenary ships in their pools and when to expect them, I think it's definitely playable. It's not 100% equal, since Thrace could still unexpectedly pick off single enemy ships out in the open, but I don't see why Sparta/Egypt can't hold their own navally by trading ships (leaving them just barely out of range of enemy ships while leaving the main fleet one tile back). I don't think this even lets Thrace "dictate" what happens navally completely since trading ships would happen even without mercenary ships, and when one team attempts to trade ships the other has to either trade them or retreat, so this wouldn't make a Thracian advance inevitable. While trading ships may cost resources, it would likely be even more expensive for Thrace to maintain this since every turn, Thrace would have to buy and disband the mercenary ship, plus they might need to sacrifice generals for hiring the ships at dangerous locations as well as siege units if they need to take port settlements, and there are also locations where the merc ship can't be rehired. Overall, while the merc ships are an advantage, from my point of view they are stoppable with correct play.

Sparta/Egypt also have the initial advantage of more raw ship power from my point of view, since from the start Sparta and Egypt combined start with 5 coastal settlements able to build dockyards, with one more (Athens) able to be taken within the first couple turns, while Syracuse/Thrace start with only 4.

Hopefully this makes sense. If I felt merc ships were completely unstoppable I'd support banning initiating battles with them on the same turn they are purchased for the rest of the match now that we all know what they can do, but for me it seems like they can be stopped using tactics such as the ones I just mentioned.

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · July 26, 2021, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by jimmy_dude

using ports to defend ships

Scratch that. All important ports there are south of the settlement (Larisa, Chalkis, Athens), so you get to safely attack them with siege equipment and thus our ports are not safe.

While trading ships may cost resources, it would likely be even more expensive for Thrace to maintain this since every turn, Thrace would have to buy and disband the mercenary ship, plus they might need to sacrifice generals for hiring the ships at dangerous locations as well as siege units if they need to take port settlements, and there are also locations where the merc ship can't be rehired.

Really not relevant for 'normally trading ships'. You don't need your trick for that. You can just trade small galleys and keep the threat of that merc ship to keep pushing our main fleet back every single turn.

Sparta/Egypt also have the initial advantage of more raw ship power from my point of view, since from the start Sparta and Egypt combined start with 5 coastal settlements able to build dockyards, with one more (Athens) able to be taken within the first couple turns, while Syracuse/Thrace start with only 4.

Also not really relevant for this case, but you forget Sparta can face up to 3 factions. Syracuse gets to fight only 1.

It's not 100% equal, since Thrace could still unexpectedly pick off single enemy ships out in the open, but I don't see why Sparta/Egypt can't hold their own navally by trading ships (leaving them just barely out of range of enemy ships while leaving the main fleet one tile back).

Yes, everyone can trade ships. But let's go over this once again then. We move closer to you, you trade our single ships and you can move your fleet in range of ours. We can perhaps pick off your single ships, but it's not enough. We still have to move our fleet 1 tile back because Thrace can do something which Sparta and Egypt cannot. Hire that mercenary ship to extend the range.

You still don't see how that is a major advantage simply because of turn order?

Glad at least you admit it's not 100% equal, although I find that an incredible understatement. But is there something we can do to make this situation as equal as possible.... ?

**Mergor** · July 26, 2021, 04:16 PM

I've been invited to say my opinion here.

I'd like to start things off by saying that at this point of time, the correct decision is to not reverse this move. Jimmy's argument is sound, this could have been avoided, he outplayed you. The issue is on a broader scale, which I understand, is that ultimately he had an advantage that only his faction could have. Still, the result of this advantage isn't that he can defeat your fleet, that was your mistake, its that he can initially push you back. It doesn't help that something was used against you, albeit with a slighty different context, that you feared could be used against you. Your anger is completely justifiable along with your dissapointment, but ultimately you shouldn't change rules mid game as a principle, and this could have been avoided.

That said, obviously there is argument that could be had about the mercenary advantage. It could be claimed, as jimmy did that, that its simply something like factions later in the turn order having the advantage of getting the income from contested cities. Its a debate whether its acceptable or something that should be forbidden. I agree with YTWM: In a tournament, mercenaries as a whole should be banned.
I would also like to express that perhaps there was a communication problem. Whatever the truth is, joe and Chieftan feels that jadli shrugged their concerns off. If true the admin should, in the future, care more about such problems that get brought up in the future. Communication is key, and a lot of drama could have been avoided if those two players know that this can happen and will be allowed to happen.

But I do want to say, as things already happened, that this is a situation where you cannot make a good decision as an admin. Since I often experiment with new rulesets, gamemods and scenarios, I've often been in a scenario Jadli is in. When the game was made, a rule was missed about a small detail that later influenced the HS as a whole. And what do you do then? You either influence the game by changing a rule, you screw with the victory of one side and set a precedent that things perceived as unfair ought to be changed and things reversed retroactively, which births a lot of drama and confuson, or you let that unfair thing happen, make the loser feel even more dissapointed and generally damage the enjoyment of the HS. There is no clear choice for the admin, and so I ask that you understand Jadli too.

**Jadli** · July 27, 2021, 02:49 AM

I get why you guys are angry, I would probably be as well in your position, but this is not a good time to change such a major feature of the HS (for the next round we can look into this). However, as I said earlier several times, I made the scenario with the mercs in mind, and I chose the turn order as it was. It seemed to me that Sparta has potentionally a very strong defensive position in Greece, which I found interesting to counter balance by Syracuse/Thracs having the turn order advatage. Maybe I shouldnt have done it? Who knows, but we are where we are now, and you are supposed to show your best with the tools you got, which Im very much aware of, hence you dont have to worry that such things wouldnt be taken into consideration when evaluating this round...

Yes, it creates diffcult situations for some players, but thats the point of the tournament. You are supposed to be challeneged by situations you might have not ever been fully before, and create new tactics to deal with them...

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · July 28, 2021, 10:50 AM

I took a few days to cool down, because usually that helps to review a situation. I agree with you Mergor, it is a difficult task to be an admin in such a case. Also, I agree/admit that we were not aware such a move was possible, so 'it could have been avoided'. However, that 'could have been avoided' thing is not a solution for the whole hotseat. I agree that based on this turn, it could have been avoided. But there is a larger issue at hand, which joe and me strongly feel that is a serious issue of balance, simply because of turn order.

I see everyone tries to make a reasonable argument, and mostly people seem to understand jimmy's case, but there doesn't really seem to be any alignment with our pursuit for fairness. Yes, there are advantages and disadvantages of being first/later in turn order. Some things can not be fixed because of that. For instance, a defeated unit if you are first in turn order. It simply cannot be fixed, so you will have an opportunity to scout with that unit. So be it...
The issue joe and me raised is a serious issue of balance in our opinion, which can be fixed.
So I will go over this one more time. A 'solution' ('this can be avoided') kind of was presented, but I just disagree for the long term. Of course, for that specific turn, it would have worked to 'just move your fleet 1 tile back'. But then the next turn?
1) Thrace defeats (trades) the single Spartan ships and moves it's fleet 1 tile closer.
1a) Oh wait, all you have to do is move your Spartan fleet 1 tile back, again.
2) Thrace defeats (trades) the single Spartan ships and moves it's fleet 1 tile closer.
2a) Oh wait, all you have to do is move your Spartan fleet 1 tile back, again.
And again, and again, and again....

Does no one see the issue here? Really?

Solely because of turn order, one faction has an advantage at sea over the other faction. Solely because of turn order!
And can that issue be fixed? Yes, it can, quite easily. Without banning mercenaries or mercenary ships at all. All we have to do is a minor change in the rules to not allow players to extend the attacking range of their fleet with a mercenary ship on the exact same turn as it is hired.
God.... Everytime I hear myself explain this rule, it seems so extremely simple, yet necessary to keep balance at sea. I just really don't get it why there has been so much resistance to a rule change. I just really don't get it... Sometimes you face a problem, and you have to address it.

So for us it is pretty simple. We clearly felt and still feel balance needed to be restored. We asked for that a month ago and no action (or even consideration) was taken. Because we believe it is absolutely necessary to take this step, this situation could have been avoided. Allright, it is not avoided... Still, even after ruling that this move of jimmy is allowed, no proposal to change the rules and no compromises whatsoever.

We are very disappointed with the way this situation is handled. Sadly, we do not feel like supporting this tournament anymore, and as such, we are no longer interested to continue this hotseat.
We wish you all good luck in the rest of the tournament.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Mergor** · July 28, 2021, 02:04 PM

I'd really urge you guys to reconsider this. This is not a clear cut case of somebody being a tyrant with rules or an ass, this is a case of opinions and disagreement where there have been good counterpoints raised. And I remember Jadli writing that he might do something next turn, its just reversing this is not something he agrees with. And so, 'ragequiting out of protest' is a destructive, unfair move, not only to your opponents, but to the admin. What should Jadli do right now? He put a lot of energy into this tournament and you are sabotaging it. This is not a respectable move at all.

**Jadli** · July 28, 2021, 04:41 PM

@Chieftain

As you say, we were testing things before we started, and I was adressing the issues that you guys found. And as it was made very clear in the beginning, players should test all aspects of the mod properly to fix things if needed, as once the match start, things are going to be hard to change. And that has been true.... As I said, for the next round we could for sure implement something like this, or possibly even now, if all players wanted, but thats not apparently the case...

About Sparta I meant, that it has a capacity for building up a mighty defensive position, doesnt mean it starts with it. Samely like there are several other opportunities for other factions, especially based on how Greece plays out...

**joerock22** · July 28, 2021, 05:17 PM

I am obviously resigning too. I agree with everything Chieftain said. I would also add that both of these tag team tournaments have turned out rather miserably from my perspective. I left the last one with very bad feelings about the whole thing, and this is not much different. There is always something, some AR issue or questionable strategy (or both). I don't believe what happened here is a legitimate strategy, period. Nothing I have read has convinced me otherwise. We put a ton of time into playing these tournaments, hours and hours every turn. And I personally get super competitive. So when something like this happens, when I feel like we were screwed over unjustly, it ruins the game for me. I can't bring myself to continue investing these hours upon hours of my life in these circumstances.

As for Mergor's comment, I fail to see how this is 'sabotaging' anything. You are free to continue the tournament. Chieftain wished you luck with it and I do as well. We just can't continue with something we deeply disagree with. Seems pretty 'respectable' to me.

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · July 28, 2021, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Mergor

I'd really urge you guys to reconsider this. This is not a clear cut case of somebody being a tyrant with rules or an ass, this is a case of opinions and disagreement where there have been good counterpoints raised. And I remember Jadli writing that he might do something next turn, its just reversing this is not something he agrees with. And so, 'ragequiting out of protest' is a destructive, unfair move, not only to your opponents, but to the admin. What should Jadli do right now? He put a lot of energy into this tournament and you are sabotaging it. This is not a respectable move at all.

Yes, it is a case of disagreements about a move made.
I never said someone is a tyrant or an ass, I just said repeatedly that we found an issue with turn order which should be addressed. I'm starting to lose count how many times I've explained this now.
I can understand that the move will not be banned, but as for our point with the turn order, I don't feel like anyone seriously responded to that. And no, there are no good counterpoints raised at all about that. I also explained that in my previous message, jimmy's 'solution' is not a solution.

Also no, Jadli actually made the opposite clear. This hotseat nothing will change, perhaps in the finals.

And also no, I don't appreciate you calling us out on sabotaging the hotseat. As if we didn't put a lot of energy into it.

Joe and me come from our own cosy little TATW world, where as admins we always tried to keep everything as equal and realistic as possible. This range extension with the mercenary ship qualifies as neither of those two things we stood for as admins and players. It is quite simple that if no one feels the same way, we clearly have a different view about how we should handle things and then for both of us there is no other way than wishing you all the best of luck in the finals. There are enough teams to make it there, right?

**jimmy_dude** · July 28, 2021, 11:37 PM

Mergor pretty much summed up my thoughts on this. To me it seems like Joe/Chieftain just have different ideas of fairness than myself or Jadli, and if this is like any other debate I've had online, there’s no changing anyoneÂ’s mind so maybe it’s best we move on. I could keep arguing about whether you could defend against merc ships or whether the unbalance here is justified given the rest of the setup but I know it wouldn’t be likely to change either of your minds. It’s unfortunate it had to end this way since I was looking forward to playing out the rest of this and possibly playing you guys in the finals but it looks like you guys have made up your minds.

**jimmy_dude** · July 30, 2021, 08:20 AM

After thinking about this for a bit and talking with Chieftain, I've decided that if Joe/Chieftain are willing to change their mind and continue playing, I won't use mercenary ships to extend the range of my ships on future turns. I'm not sure if they're still willing to play at this point but maybe this is a possible compromise since I do get how they see this is a legitimate issue that goes beyond just previously known "turn order advantage."

**Jadli** · August 07, 2021, 07:32 AM

Well, unfortunately it appears they havent, at least I wasnt told anything.

Pretty sad that ex GS would drop a tournament... such an act from players was always considered pretty low in the past, as it caused immense issues to the Gaming Staff that spent lot of time organizing it..... and in the past such people would not be allowed to join other GS events/hotseats...

Nonetheless, there we go. I dont think there is much more to be done than turning Sparta and Egpyt AI (except cancelling the tournament I guess

), as I dont have time to sub, nor any interest at this point, hence they are AI now... Lydia up https://www.mediafire.com/file/2vbb6...ia_13.sav/file

Obviously, from this point it only matters for the evaluation of a winner, what damage you deal to the other human team, not AI (hence its basically only jimmy vs Isenbard now) + what happened before. All rules still valid against Sparta/Egypt

**Jadli** · August 25, 2021, 02:01 AM

Due to numerous drop outs, the semi finals were abrupted, and the scenario was restarted as the finals with the remaining players here https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...4#post16044704