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Thread: [DISCUSSION] Citizenship & Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

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    Default [DISCUSSION] Citizenship & Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    In light of the most recent failed amendment (which did go to vote), I have drafted the following "compromise" between what we have and total removal of what we have. All points are suggestions and I am open to alterations and changes.



    Section I - Citizenship and Curial Officers
    Article I. Citizenship

    Citizens, as exemplary members, ere expected to abide by the Terms of Service and the Citizen's handbook (Section 1, Article III.) In the event that you break the terms of service, your citizenship may be temporarily suspended. In case of multiple breaches, it may result in the revocation of your citizenship.


    Article III. The Citizens Handbook. I supposed this can be Article II and Article II can become Art. III.
    A. Behavioral Guidelines for Citizens.


    1. Citizenship is awarded to you by the Curia at the recommendation of your Patron. Your manner of posting should reflect their trust.
    2. Your actions reflect upon every Citizen and the Curia as a whole. Think twice before pressing the submit button.
    3. Always use discretion when addressing Moderation actions. Use private messages instead of public posts, wherever possible.
    4. Be welcoming and polite towards new members. Hubris is the worst attribute a Citizen can exhibit.
    5. Support your posts with evidence, and never display work that is not your own without links or proper attribution to the author(s).
    6. Avoid bringing off-site arguments in to Curial procedures unless absolutely necessary. If you have a grievance seek impartial advice first.
    7. Visit the help and technical forums. Many of us had our first encounter with TWC there, and therefore we should make it pleasant for new members.
    8. Avoid personal attacks. When extremely incensed move away from the keyboard.
    9. Before submitting a Citizen Referral, first consider whether you have misunderstood their intent and seek endorsement of your grievances.


    B. Patron & Client Guidelines.


    1. Your relationship with your Patron/Client is what you make of it.
    2. The patron should advise their client in terms of Curia etiquette and demeanour.
    3. The patron should not in any other way attempt to influence the actions of their Client, nor make demands of them.
    4. The Client should consider obtaining advice from his patron on any matters related to the Constitution or the Terms of Service that they feel unsure about.

    Section III - Ostraka and Magistrates
    Article I. Ostrak

    If a citizen receives an infraction the Consul may issue a Censure or suspends their citizenship for a duration of three months until the infraction has expired or is revoked.
    If a citizen believes an offense by another citizen is unbecoming citizen, he may petition the Consul to issue a Censure or a Curial warning.
    An Ostrakon is initiated at the discretion of the Consul if a citizen’s behavior is egregious enough to bring before the entire Curia

    If a citizen believes an offense by another citizen is egregious enough to bring before the entire Curia that citizen may initiate an Ostrakon.1

    Footnotes

    Censure is a 6-month probationary Period.
    If a Citizen receives an infraction during the probationary period, the Consul will suspend their citizenship for 3 months.
    If a citizen receives another infraction during their suspension, they must serve the second suspension consecutively.

    When a citizen believes a citizen is actions are unbecoming of citizenship, they shall make a a case via private message to the Consul, who determines if there is any merit.
    A citizen initiates an ostrakon by making a case via private message to the Consul, who determines if an ostrakon has merit. If an ostrakon has merit:
    When the Consul initiates a ostrakon;
    The Consul notifies the defendant and requests a defense
    After a defense is provided, or after one week if no defense is provided, the Consul posts the ostrakon accusation and defense within the Quaestiones Perpetuae
    After three days of discussion the Consul adds a poll lasting seven days to either Dismiss, Revoke Citizenship, or Abstain. A 2/3rds majority of non-abstaining votes is required for revocation.

    CHANGE LOG as of 2021/02/03
    Added the "makawa amendment"
    Added the Citizen's handbook to the Constitution
    Edited the title to better reflect the scope of the discussion
    Last edited by PikeStance; March 02, 2021 at 01:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Deja vu. What we have is the most minimum possible by the will of a curia that wanted to minimize a beaurocratic moderation system, with the only lower point being nothing. This is a simplified form of the previous structure, except extra power is offered to the consul and there is apparently no consideration of reach the consul has in applying probation or warning. As much as our glorious king will surely appreciate the sentiment, a problem may arise here immediately.

    The general will of the people appears to be 'forget about it' and weariness on the topic, and so it's a compromise that doesn't seem to have been made with any forward input from key parties interested in the previous talks. I doubt it'll go anywhere. Might be wrong, dunno.

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    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    The main effect of this would be more opportunities for people to VonC the Consul.
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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    More complications, more controversial, I can even forsee amendments to this ammendment, so thinking of the welfare of the curia I support this.

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Opposed.

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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Not a terrible idea, it's probably a step in the right direction - if only a small one.

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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    unbecoming of citizenship,
    The specifics of which are?.

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    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Old gods die hard
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Opposed.

    I would think after the last Ostrakon fiasco we would go back to a multi-member review team for Citizen behavior and retribution.

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Rush View Post
    a multi-member review team for Citizen behavior and retribution.
    you have described the current ostraka system.

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    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Rush View Post
    Opposed.

    I would think after the last Ostrakon fiasco we would go back to a multi-member review team for Citizen behavior and retribution.
    That sounds a lot like reckoning and day of judgment. I like it.

    We found a witch, may we burn her?


    (shamelessly mixing MP tropes here, but whatever...)
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  11. #11
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Before we are busy with formal procedures, should we not first decide, what the material criteria for BEHAVING as a citizen should be?

    Otherwise it seems to be the change from a toothless lion to a toothless tiger for me...
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    That sounds a lot like reckoning and day of judgment. I like it.

    We found a witch, may we burn her?


    (shamelessly mixing MP tropes here, but whatever...)
    And how do we know she's a witch?

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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Why do people always have to crop me out of that pic. I was standing right next to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    I am not seeing how this will result in a VonC of the Consul. The least punishment is Censure. The most is exactly what we have now. Who would have an issue with receiving something less than a suspension? Disagreeing with a decision of the Consul is not "abuse of power" by the Consul.

    The Drama is removed from the Ostrakon Instead of it being initiated by a "citizen" it is initiated by moderation infraction.
    In an earlier version I define "egregious." But I felt best to see what others thought "egregious" could mean. Is it two or more infractions. Is it two or more of the same type. Is it at least one infraction is "rudeness" or other impolite behavior brought up in previous discussions?

    if behavior standards are not define, then define them. The scope of the discussion is discipline and therefore such discussion/amendment can be included.
    Last edited by PikeStance; February 24, 2021 at 09:28 PM.

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    The drama is actually that almost nobody applied to the Censor election at that time. It was always the same people who cumulated terms after terms. You can implement all the systems you want, if nobody wants to take the responsability, that's not gonna work.
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    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Before we are busy with formal procedures, should we not first decide, what the material criteria for BEHAVING as a citizen should be?

    Otherwise it seems to be the change from a toothless lion to a toothless tiger for me...
    As ever the Curia forgets a guidelines thread that is as close to persistent standards as ever existed. We treat it like it doesn't exist. Doing that when it's right there, I'm afraid the question will always be moot.

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    As ever the Curia forgets a guidelines thread that is as close to persistent standards as ever existed. We treat it like it doesn't exist. Doing that when it's right there, I'm afraid the question will always be moot.
    If you are talking about the citizens handbook I seriously think that this was admitted by the curia with an "okay, whatever" because it was clear that they are not rules at all, something that if you do not comply will affect your status as a citizen. It is rather the guide of the ideal citizen, and even ideal citizens/users don't fulfill all of those points. If citizens were punished for violating these points, there would be no incolume citizen. (Edit: point 7 aside, as far as I know only a handful of citizens comply with all of the citizens handbook "behavioural guidelines").

    Since I am here, I take the opportunity to reiterate that there is already a fairly clear code that can serve as a basis to discipline citizens, the terms of service.
    Last edited by mishkin; February 26, 2021 at 05:00 AM.

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    The "tendentious" point for some seems to be the fact that citizenship can be temporary suspended in case of infraction because citizenship is considered as a reward for contributions and as such, rewards aren't upposed to be removed (if I get everything correctly).
    So, as already said, this kind of half-measure can not work. If some people really want to change things here, they need to propose a complete reform of the citizenry system.

    Meanwhile, I agree with the above. No one is above the TOS.
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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    No one is above the TOS.
    Only the site owner.
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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [DISCUSSION] Disciplinary Procedure Alteration

    Quote Originally Posted by Lift
    If some people really want to change things here, they need to propose a complete reform of the citizenry system.
    Opposed.

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