Hungarian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

[Brezkimra]

Wonderful pictures! I already had the ones from the Army of King Matthias book but not the other ones. I am saving these for my personal collection.

You can see more nice pictures: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-HUNGARY/page3

[Wallachian]

Great, thank you! I have seen this artist's illustrations also on the fence of the Royal Palace in Budapest.

[Brezkimra]

Please delete the horse barding on the all Hungarian Banderium cavalry units (all ug). No sources about this usage in Tsardoms era, every depicted sources show them without it. Perhaps the high nobles used horse barding, but most Hungarian knights did not.
(The paintings of Győző Somogyi not all are authentic, sometimes he also uses his imagination.)
In medieval Hungary, knightly symbols such as horse barding are not as popular as in Western Europe. (An example: When the knights of King Sigismund's entourage applied for a knightly tournament in the West, they did not allow all of them because they did not have a coat of arms. They then asked the king to do it for them quickly.)
Please see the contemporary representations of the Hungarian heavy cavalry in folowing pictures.

Good for ug 0-1-2 to your mod:

[Brezkimra]

Good for ug 0-1-2:

[Brezkimra]

Good for ug 0-1-2:

[Brezkimra]

The last ug of Hungarian Heavy cavalry units shouldn't carry XVI. century hussar shield. In histical the hungarian gothic armoured cavalry generally does't used shield, just rarely used hand pavise. Military historians also write that the full Gothic knightly armor made the use of the shield unnecessary.



Gothic armoured banderial cavalry without shield and horse barding for to the last ug:

[Brezkimra]

Gothic armoured banderial cavalry without shield and horse barding for to the last ug:

[jurcek1987]

Ok so you suggest we remove the barding from Hungarian (and Croatian) Baronial Banderium, even the gothic version should have none?

[Brezkimra]

Ok so you suggest we remove the barding from Hungarian (and Croatian) Baronial Banderium, even the gothic version should have none?

Yes, barding should be removed from the gothic version (last ug) too, and please delete their (XVI. century hussar type) shield too for the historical accuracy.

[Brezkimra]

Baronial Banderium last upgrade:
The "Polish Knights" UG3 model and their unbarded horses would better represent the Hungarian "Baronial Banderium" UG3 warriors, than the current ones. If it is possible, please replace them. I tried make it, but unfortunately I failed.



Then should deleting shields and actual swords, and adding full iron gothic mace what used by "Serbian Knights", and that sword type what used by the "Croatian Cuiressiers"unit.
The result is nearly perfect historical model.

[Brezkimra]

The reconstruction of 1360-s Szekely horse archer in a Transylvanian museum. Look like different than in the game.

[Wallachian]

This is very different indeed. I think this could warrant an upgrade for the unit to give them this padded armour and helmet.

[Hrobatos]

@szikelkun we only base our units on time perios art. Do you know on which time period art was this museum piece based on?

[Wallachian]

I can see at the bottom of the picture a blurry text mentioning the year 1360. And that type of clothing could easily cover all the way up to 1400s. So we can easily have the current version of the szekely as ug0 and a version based on the above as ug1.

But yeah there would of course be a variety of Szekely horse archers. Some with more armour some with less.

For example, this image for mid XV century is like the current unit we have



So both from a gameplay and historical point of view can easily have ug0 with plain clothes like we have now and ug1 with padded armour and helmet like the image above.

[Brezkimra]

@szikelkun we only base our units on time perios art. Do you know on which time period art was this museum piece based on?

Yes, it is based on medieval frescoes in Szekelyland:

Homoródkarácsonyfalva - first third of the 14th century:


Bögöz - first half of the 14th century:


Bibarcfalva - end of the 14th century- beginning of the 15th century:


Maksa - 14-15th century:


Nagyajta - 15th century:


You can find here photos about the reconstruction model:
https://liget.ro/studio/mitoszrombol...ekkozpontbbol#
https://www.3szek.ro/load/cikk/14568...r-emlekkozpont

[Brezkimra]

I can see at the bottom of the picture a blurry text mentioning the year 1360. And that type of clothing could easily cover all the way up to 1400s. So we can easily have the current version of the szekely as ug0 and a version based on the above as ug1.

But yeah there would of course be a variety of Szekely horse archers. Some with more armour some with less.

I agree with you.

For example, this image for mid XV century is like the current unit we have

The image above is not quite like in the mod. In the mod is no spear and shield the saber is from the 17th century.



According to a surviving venetian diplomat's record from 1479, the Szeklers participated in Matthias Hunyadi's land force with 16,000 light-armed cavalry equipped with a spear, shield and bow. He didn't mention armor or a helmet.
Based on this, I think the UG0 unit should wear a spear and shield (square and tarschen) instead of a saber.
The UG1 unit should wear helmet helmet and padded or possibly chainmail, and use straigh knightly sword, possibly gothic sabre (like above in the Győző Somogyi's painting).

I note the Szeklers had lower-than-average horses of the Eastern type. The other light Hungarian and Kun equestrian archers are also.

[Hrobatos]

Hungary alredy has plenty of lancers so we decides to keep Szeklers as mounted bowmen . I know you decided to ignore it but above picture does also include a bow and so do various contemporary ilustrations you included

[Brezkimra]

Hungary alredy has plenty of lancers so we decides to keep Szeklers as mounted bowme . I know you decided to gnore it but above picture does also include a bow and ao do various contemporary ilustrations you includes

Sorry! It is not my intention to disturb you. I don't know what sources your units were made from. (Otherwise, contemporary illustrations are sometimes misleading.)

[Wallachian]

We can't give the unit both bow and spear. Well we can but the AI won't know how to use it, there are a couple of units like that and the spear is not used by the AI. So we made a choice to make Szekely horse archers because the magyars needed a good horse archer unit and they have plenty of lance units. Giving them another lance unit would not do anything for their roster. What we can do is give them a shield too which is not a problem and we can change the sword as well. Although looking at that Hunyadi era picture i can see that they also have a saber-like weapon. And also created an upgrade as suggested. I think with the added shield and the upgrade the Szekely will be an excellent unit.

[Brezkimra]

Since the middle of the 15th century, these sabers widely used by the light cavalry and lighter infantry. This is best fitting for UG1 Szekely Horse Archers units:


This type of saber could also be use by some in Mounted Sergeants last UG and Familiares Swordsmen last UG units too.

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Before the middle of the 15th century the UG0 Szekely Horse Archers should use more simple sabre form what currently use the Szekely infantry Archers and Oikonomiai Javelin Cavalry.