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Thread: Secession vs Civil War

  1. #1
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Secession vs Civil War

    Hello everyone

    I have a little question regarding the difference between Secession and Civil War. Currently I am playing a campaign as Pergamon, and there is only 1 opposition party. I put their loyalty as low as possible, but I only got a "secession" and not a civil war for the achievement. Can someone explain the difference?


  2. #2
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    I'm not sure, but for a civil war there must also be a power imbalance.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  3. #3
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    I'm not sure, but for a civil war there must also be a power imbalance.
    What do you mean with power imbalance exactly?


  4. #4
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    For example 80% of the court nobles.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  5. #5
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    For example 80% of the court nobles.
    I had a very big majority in the court nobles in the first place though I don't remember the exact number


  6. #6
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Or a civil war needs more than two parties, as the other parties must join the secessionists. This would mean civil war only at higher imperium level, as higher imperium level = more parties.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  7. #7
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Or a civil war needs more than two parties, as the other parties must join the secessionists. This would mean civil war only at higher imperium level, as higher imperium level = more parties.
    I will continue expanding and then I will see if I can get a proper "civil war" then


  8. #8
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Perhaps others know more, as i'm quite successful in preventing them because of power sharing and a little bit bribing at time.^^
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  9. #9
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    I think that they are 2 completely different things, in terms on how they are technically handled

    secessions are handled via campaign variables (ofc they have hardcoded scripts in the dll, but you can't work on them, actually yes but that's a completely different low level thing)
    civil wars are more complex and mostly handled via lua, and they are affected by many more variables, some you can interfere with, some others you can't

  10. #10
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    When I had a civil war as Carthage, about half my territory was held by the enemy Carthaginian faction. On the map in this post, the enemy held the red regions - the lands in Iberia, southern Gaul and elsewhere marked 'Sanais' on the map - while I held the cream-coloured regions marked 'Admago' on the map, plus more of the north African coast. While I could be wrong, it seems that, if the rival party (or parties) leave with enough of your territory, the result is a civil war.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    Hello everyone

    I have a little question regarding the difference between Secession and Civil War. Currently I am playing a campaign as Pergamon, and there is only 1 opposition party. I put their loyalty as low as possible, but I only got a "secession" and not a civil war for the achievement. Can someone explain the difference?

    Civil war is when 2 or more parties break off at the same time. But be careful when you intentionally want to cause a secession or a civil war because for example if the rival parties are in control of an important part of your territories, it would be very frustrating to lose provinces you earned them with big effort. And things get worse if you have armies ( and on top of that, armies that have elite or experienced units ) led by rival parties' generals. All those armies will become your enemy. In this case it would be very tough to deal with the secession or civil war.
    Last edited by twgamer20197; February 19, 2021 at 07:39 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    When I had a civil war as Carthage, about half my territory was held by the enemy Carthaginian faction. On the map in this post, the enemy held the red regions - the lands in Iberia, southern Gaul and elsewhere marked 'Sanais' on the map - while I held the cream-coloured regions marked 'Admago' on the map, plus more of the north African coast. While I could be wrong, it seems that, if the rival party (or parties) leave with enough of your territory, the result is a civil war.

    How tough was crushing the rebels?

  13. #13
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    The war against the rebels was quite challenging and I enjoyed it. I needed to fight some of my best armies - with experienced units, army traditions and skilled generals - which was fun. At the Battle of Memphis, I needed to win against a veteran rebel army - and my army were raw recruits in their first fight.

    The rebel faction made a serious attempt to destroy my half of Carthage. From chapter 33 of my Carthage AAR (this chapter is told from the perspective of the rebels):

    Sanais sent three armies to destroy Admago’s remnant of Carthage. The first army, in Gaul, marched east, seizing Genua, Velathri and Ariminum on its way to Rome. The second army marched along the long road from Iol to Carthago. The third army was in Egypt. Admago’s Carthage depended on grain from the Nile valley, victory here could end the civil war quickly. Sanais had used his wealth wisely, giving estates in Iberia to the Mangonid family. This earned the loyalty of Saraca, heir of the Mangonids and commander of the Sacred Company in Egypt, one of Carthage’s finest armies.
    Last edited by Alwyn; February 20, 2021 at 07:55 AM.

  14. #14
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by twgamer20197 View Post
    Civil war is when 2 or more parties break off at the same time. But be careful when you intentionally want to cause a secession or a civil war because for example if the rival parties are in control of an important part of your territories, it would be very frustrating to lose provinces you earned them with big effort. And things get worse if you have armies ( and on top of that, armies that have elite or experienced units ) led by rival parties' generals. All those armies will become your enemy. In this case it would be very tough to deal with the secession or civil war.
    So you can't have a civil war when one party is in the opposition?


  15. #15
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    There seem to be two views on this. One view is that a civil war happens when two (or more) parties break away at once. The other view is that a civil war happens when a sufficiently large part of your empire breaks away. I don't know which view is right - does anyone know? If it's the second, then a civil war could happen when there was only one party, if it had enough influence.

  16. #16
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Well I got myself to max imperium, got the influence of both parties to like -80 and still only one party breaks away.


  17. #17
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Influence or loyalty?

  18. #18
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Influence or loyalty?
    Loyalty


  19. #19

    Default Re: Secession vs Civil War

    If you play as Rome in Grand Campaign and you want to switch from Republic to Empire, there are several things to check first:

    - Check all the legions commanded by generals from rival parties. Right before changing the Government system, you should hand all the units from generals from other parties over to generals from your party. That is because the loyalty drops to -30 instantly when switching to Empire. It would be very frustrating if you have to fight armies that have experienced units if a civil war breaks out. In order that you always have candidates available from your party, you should beforehand increase your familly tree as much as possible ( right from the start of the campaign ). Marry all the characters from your party. Don't let anyone spend too much time without a husband or wife.

    - Check what are the provinces controlled by rival parties. Once you identify them, remove all the military recruiment/traning buildings in those provinces so that when the civil war breaks out, the roman separatists don't have immediate access to strong units.

    - Have at least one legion in each province you control so that it doesn't take very long to react in case of secession/civil war or rebellion ( The public order also drops instantly to -30 when switching to Empire mode )

    EDIT:
    More things to do in preparation for a highly likely secession or civil war:
    -You should also downgrade the walled cities from provinces controlled by rival parties so that it becomes a little easier to take them in the civil war or secession. Downgrade them to level 1.
    - Downgrade all the ports as well in those provinces controlled by rival parties.
    Last edited by twgamer20197; June 05, 2022 at 12:32 PM.

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