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Thread: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

  1. #1
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Roma in aeternum
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    Default Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Proposer: Nicholas Rush
    Support: Pikestance, Sir Adrian, Tango12345, Flinn

    Adding language that removes the Patrician color loophole for Citizens who have their rank suspended. (Suggested language in red).


    Section III - Ostraka and Magistrates

    Article I. Ostraka

    If a citizen receives an infraction the Consul suspends their citizenship until the infraction has expired or is revoked. The suspended member losses the ability to display all rank, including both Citizen and Patrician badges and color.
    Last edited by Gaius Baltar; February 08, 2021 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Add Information



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  2. #2
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Opposed.

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  3. #3
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    There's no such thing as 'rank.' Citizenship is an award, the trappings are privileges of the award.

    Other than that, it's a good idea.

  4. #4
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Opposed.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    This should technically be done. The Patrician badge is tied to citizenship and a large award. If you lose either one, you lose the badge.
    Th actual term now is status. Patrician is an "honorary status" based on the above two criteria.
    In a nutshell, if you have large award and no citizenship, you are not a Patrician
    If you have citizenship, but no large award, you are not a Patrician.

    But, if there is some sort of assumed loophole, it should be removed. So I support, though it should be unnecessary.
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Opposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Opposed.
    I have never understood why some people take the trouble to write this without adding a few words explaining why. If you dont want to discuss it just vote no if the occasion arises.

    ranks aside, seems like a logical addition. If you are (temporarily) not a citizen, you should not be able to show any sign of being one.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Opposed.



  8. #8

    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Opposed.
    Now I understand. The mere weight of your name will make other citizens also oppose.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Just to reiterate; If you lose your citizenship either through suspension or Ostrakon, you lose your Patrician badge.
    The Constitution uses the term; Classes, not rank.

    As Per Constitution
    Citizenship is the fundamental award given1 by the Curia for contributions to the site and community of TWC. There are two classes of Citizenship:

    The first is that of Citizen, which members of can display one of the following badges: Artifex, signifying modding contributions; Civitate, signifying writing and debating contributions; and Citizen, signifying both or other contributions.2


    The second is that of Patrician, which is an honorary class of Citizenship reserved for those who have received a Large Award(s); Opifex, Phalera, Asterix's Loincloth, and Novus.
    If a citizen receives an infraction the Consul suspends their citizenship until the infraction has expired or is revoked.

    If you lose your citizenship you lose the right to display ALL citizenship badges.
    The propose line (if corrected to say "classes" instead of rank") is actually redundant.

    EDIT: Color would also have to edited out as well. Color is actually tied to the award.
    Last edited by PikeStance; February 07, 2021 at 06:55 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by makawa View Post
    Now I understand. The mere weight of your name will make other citizens also oppose.
    In the most positive observation of it it might give the proposer a rough idea of how well liked his idea is before the poll goes up. For instance if you make a suggestion and more than half of the Citizenry has opposing views you might consider not going to a vote and save everyone the trouble of a vote that is doomed to fail, thus saving time. You might call me naive but that's just how one can see it.

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    You talk about opposing views. I dont see any view when someone post "opposed". Zero feedback. I appreciate your feedback, but I dont want to go off topic, so I will not discuss this any further. Thanks for your pov anyway.
    Last edited by mishkin; February 07, 2021 at 05:27 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  12. #12
    Turkafinwë's Avatar The Sick Baby Messiah
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Someone doesn't need to explain why they are opposed, though it would be nice if everyone always did. In case of those that just say opposed I would deduct from that that they are just opposed to the entire thing taking place. Not everything needs to be nuanced, though again it's nice if everyone gives an explanation for everything but it's very tiring.

    Edit: This is also the last thing I'll say about it.

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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by makawa View Post
    I have never understood why some people take the trouble to write this without adding a few words explaining why. If you dont want to discuss it just vote no if the occasion arises.

    ranks aside, seems like a logical addition. If you are (temporarily) not a citizen, you should not be able to show any sign of being one.
    After looking into it the other day when the issue came up with Akar, the coloured names are attached both to the Patrician class, and to the large awards themselves. Essentially, if you have a large award, there are two ways in which you can display your name in purple - one being through the Patrician usergroup, and the other being through a non-citizen usergroup. Whilst I have no issue with the Curia's right to remove the first (as it already does), I don't agree it should remove the second, as it negatively impacts those who hold large awards but for whatever reason choose not to identify as Citizens/Patricians. Hence I oppose. If someone wants to argue that retired or renounced citizens can retain access to a purple name as a non-citizen, but suspended or ostrakoned citizens cannot, then I'll hear them out, but I think that would be a little cruel.

    There's also the fact that a non-citizen Divus can still display their coloured name regardless, as that award isn't tied to Patricianship. Hence if they can do so, it's only fair/logical that other large award holders can do the same.

  14. #14
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    After looking into it the other day when the issue came up with Akar, the coloured names are attached both to the Patrician class, and to the large awards themselves. Essentially, if you have a large award, there are two ways in which you can display your name in purple - one being through the Patrician usergroup, and the other being through a non-citizen usergroup. Whilst I have no issue with the Curia's right to remove the first (as it already does), I don't agree it should remove the second, as it negatively impacts those who hold large awards but for whatever reason choose not to identify as Citizens/Patricians. Hence I oppose. If someone wants to argue that retired or renounced citizens can retain access to a purple name as a non-citizen, but suspended or ostrakoned citizens cannot, then I'll hear them out, but I think that would be a little cruel.

    There's also the fact that a non-citizen Divus can still display their coloured name regardless, as that award isn't tied to Patricianship. Hence if they can do so, it's only fair/logical that other large award holders can do the same.
    I agree and I don't think there is an actual loophole to close here. Everything works as designed.
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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Patrician shouldn't be part of the purple group.

    Simple.

  16. #16
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Roma in aeternum
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    Patrician shouldn't be part of the purple group.

    Simple.
    Agree with that.

    In any case, a member suspended from the citizen ran should lose the ability to display all badges and colors associated with the rank of citizen, both confirmed by the curia and by honorary assignment. As it is, simply changing colors when suspended makes a mockery of the process.



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  17. #17
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Patrician shouldn't be part of the purple group.

    Simple.
    Simple enough that you should be able to explain how that would work, then?

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  18. #18
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Rush View Post
    Agree with that.

    In any case, a member suspended from the citizen ran should lose the ability to display all badges and colors associated with the rank of citizen, both confirmed by the curia and by honorary assignment. As it is, simply changing colors when suspended makes a mockery of the process.
    I already explained this. The "Purple" color is part of the usergroups for the large award recipients. The Patrician badge inherited the same color. The color is the result of the large award, NOT the Patrician class.
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  19. #19
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Simple enough that you should be able to explain how that would work, then?
    Did you have your citizenship suspended and lose the purple name?. If so, it already works.

  20. #20
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Amendment - Suspension of rank and loss of badge and color display ability

    Did you have your citizenship suspended and lose the purple name?. If so, it already works.
    What does that have to do with your statement that Patricians shouldn't have the purple name at all?

    Do you even know what you're talking about right now?

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