After Warhammer

[Vladyvid]

Future historic TW? Manor Lords for example. CA inability to deliver a good historic TW is an opportunity for other developers. Thats my take.

[semih bulgur]

Day by day better quality battles and innovation updating and developing. It is same also for TW Warhammer...

[Basileos Leandros I]

TW preference for historical titles is gone.

Warhammer has been too much of a runaway commercial success for them to go back to the older way of working with regards to titles / projects. Simply put, Warhammer 1-2-3 made two to three times more revenue than probably S2TW + Attila + NTW combined. That's just how it worked and works - people are very interested in fantasy / Warhammer. and if they ever do a Game of Thrones TW, you can expect that will be an enormous commercial success as well. So it's different now than it was let's say 5 years ago when they said publicly that historical titles are their main focus.

I agree with what the posters above me said - we have to look at it objectively and realise that also because of historical semi-projects like Thrones of Britannia, they will be more focused on the fantasy ones.

TW as we used to know it, let's say up to Attila, is no more. And it will not come back either. This is evolution esentially, and if you like it, you will stick around.

If you don't... well you have the old games to play.

[Twilight Esker]

I would genuinely enjoy a strong effort towards a Game of Thrones title. While not historical, it lends itself to realistic elements.

How well a title would exploit them is another subject.

[Basileos Leandros I]

Game of Thrones would actually be a step forward that might bring historical players too, since GoT is heavily inspired by the Wars of the Roses. However I'm sure the commercial licence will be quite expensive, but seeing how there's a lot of various board games about GoT with license, I don't think that would be an issue.

Game of Thrones: Total War sounds also a bit redundant. So GoT TW would probably be TW GoT.

[lolIsuck]

Game of Thrones: Total War sounds also a bit redundant. So GoT TW would probably be TW GoT.

The naming scheme has been TW:x n for a decade now so if we ever were to get a GoT TW it'd most likely be like that yeah.

I think it's unlikely to ever come, even when you ignore the question whether it's really fit for a TW-style adaptation given that it's more political intrigue than big armies. As you said the license is probably pretty expensive but the popularity of the franchise has cooled a bit due to the later seasons of the show and the sixth book still not being finished. Release of the book could of course reignite it though and it's obviously still a big franchise, one without anything in terms of big game adaptations as of yet.

I assume the next big project is Medieval III, although it will be quite some years. Three Kingdoms probably still has a year or two of development left and they could produce content for Warhammer 3 for the next 4 years or so. With those two big titles possibly giving content for many years the big question is how and when the next flagship game will arrive. That could easily be as late as 2024, with a Saga game somewhere in 2022 or 2023 to bridge that period.

[Basileos Leandros I]

Speaking of what is after Warhammer... it's been a while since the summer news, and we still have no clue about what's the historical TW offering. Not necessarily the new shiny title, but also content.

[Heathen Hammer]

To be honest, I don't see a potential for another fantasy TW franchise.
Allow me to explain:
TW: Warhammer did so well because it had a rather rich and flexible lore, allowing for a multitude of units, factions, mechanics, and it worked very well with TW mechanic.
Which fantasy franchise could be replicated by TW? One may say LOTR, and they would be wrong.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Middle Earth lore and anything related to it. But... it wouldn't be as interesting as Warhammer. (dodges a bottle that smashes at the wall behind me)
Now hear me out:
The reason why I think so is because while Tolkien's lore is certainly richer in terms of esoteric aspects of the universe, as a strategy game, it would be very lacking. Races are not as different or unique as they are in WH, their units are just basic medieval-era infantry/cavalry/missile troops combo. Can't really have hero units casting spells, as there are only 12 mages in the whole universe, Sauron and Elvish kings being among them, and even if that can be bypassed, magic in Middle earth is "boring" too - its mainly buffs and maybe some offensive spells that cast light debuffing evil creatures in the area or something of that sort. But overall, lore-based LOTR game would be quite underwhelming, especially after Warhammer.
Same goes for GoT: while you'd THINK it would make for a good strategy game, it quickly falls apart when you start thinking of faction mechanics and such since there won't be any "battlemages" or wacky units in it either.
There are fantasy worlds which would work infinitely better, like Faerun or Howard's Hyboria, but they aren't really as known and TW is honestly better off with guaranteed income from MedIII then experimenting with that.

[Basileos Leandros I]

Fantasy games in the TW franchise give plenty of options to the developers - fantasy is not restrained by the historical facts, which is a big plus for devs wanting to try something fresh.

We have Warhammer, LOTR is also a new option (and very profitable too, judging by how popular LOTR mods are) and of course Game of Thrones would work perfectly with Total War. It would create a sort of Disciples II game, the mix between fantasy and history, so I guess they are also looking at other options.

[AnthoniusII]

I think historical Total War is dead for the foreseeable future. Fantasy seems to sell more (or at least that's what Creative Assembly believes*) and there's a clear shift towards that direction. It's not just Warhammer. Three Kingdoms featured two modes, but data shows that Romance is more popular than Records. That's also reflected in Troy, which didn't even offer a more realistic alternative for the historically-minded fans. Legendary lords with near-magical abilities were the only available option. That comment from Will back in 2015 hasn't aged very well. The next tent-pole game will be, in my opinion, either Warhammer 40K or Total War: Age of Mythology, something like Troy, but with many more civilisations, not just Greeks, including monsters and magic.

-Maybe never. At least not until fantasy has been exhausted. There's a chance for a Saga game, but it's still unlikely and their limited budget and scope doesn't particularly excite me.
-Doubtful. The Evolution-Revolution model has long been abandoned. It's the same engine since Empire and I don't see CA actually ditching it, as long as it keeps working (even with bugs and several restrictions).
-It's now 18 + 3 legendary lords. It could change, but don't hope for an increase in the total number of units allowed.
-It depends on what you mean by major innovations. CA loves to introduce new features that look spectacular in pre-release material. Some of them, like naval battles in Empire, were welcome, but others were indifferent (naval bombardment in Fall of the Samurais), controversial (duels in Three Kingdoms) or outright catastrophic (amphibious battles in Rome II, they caused a myriad of problems and are largely responsible for the disastrous state of the game in 2013). So, new features will be introduced, but I wouldn't expect something a bit more nuanced than a reconstruction of Saving Private Ryan "Carthage-style". No hope for issuing orders beforehand, for example, and then observe the battle unfold depending on your commands and your opponent's reaction.
-That's possible. There's quite a lot of money in the multiplayer community, so I'm surprised that CA hasn't invested more there. I think they mistake the dissapointing figures of Steam for lack of interest, instead of the result of their poor implementation.
-Nope, that ship has sailed. CA has used a variety of excuses (some of them contradictory) to justify their removal. Historical accuracy (oh, the irony), lack of large bodies of water etc., but they were only honest in Warhammer II, when they admitted that they simply refused to spend resources in a feature, whose removal was not very passionately objected by the community. The fans here bare a lot of responsibility. Instead of defending the retailer's perspective, they should have also protested for their interests. Reddit's mob mentality played a very negative role on this regard. Only chance for the return of naval warfare would be with Empire 2, but that's a very, very distant scenario.

Overall, the picture is a bit fleak for those not interested in fantasy. That's normal, it also happened when the franchise took a more "casual" policy with Empire and especially Shogun II and Rome II. Several of the older fans were alienated, but they later got used to either losing interest in Total War or simply playing the older titles. For my part, I am quite satisfied. I play Darthmod in Empire/Napoleon and modded/vanilla Rome I and Medieval II. The modding scene is still alive, so their wealth can never be exhausted. I'm currently immersed in a campaign as Sassanid Persia in the Ruina Romae mod for Rome I, so who cares about the future? Besides, I get to keep my wallet intact!

*Largely, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Total War keeps catering to fantasy enthusiasts for a considerable amount of time, the demographics will change accordingly and CA will be essentially forced to continue on this path.

I'd be extremely surprised if we don't see Medieval 3 in the next couple of years to be honest.

Obviously their main focus has been Warhammer for a long time now that it feels like the historical settings have been forgotten about. 3 kingdoms and Troy, while based on historical events and characters (well, 3K anyway, Troy can be argued I guess), are probably more widely known for their fantastical and romanticized elements so from a marketing point of view it makes sense to sell them on that premise, and from a development point of view you simply can't create two entirely different versions of the same game; they tried it with 3K, but the records mode just wasn't popular, and the budget and team size for Troy (being a smaller project from the start) was probably nowhere near what would've been required to make both versions justice.

That brings us back to Med3, CA has been doing a lot of different stuff for the past 5 years with varying degrees of history behind it, but they know the historical settings still sell. It's not like all the old fans stopped being interested in history just because of WH, and it's not like the new fans who came to the series because of WH hate anything historical just because that was their entryway to the series. Med3 is probably their most anticipated sequel from the older games, Medieval 2 is the game that has aged the most without receiving an update and I daresay people would be as excited for it as they were with the revent announcement of Warhammer 3.

So the Warhammer team will release WH3 this year, then move on to (probably) another fantasy project, the CA Sofia team have probably begun development on a new Saga game, and the historical team (that released Three Kingdoms nearly 2 years ago now) are probably in full production on the next historical game, which will release in 2022 or 2023 depending on if they squeaze the next Saga game in between or not (I look forward to foolishly coming back to this post in 5 years when we've had a full Warhammer 40k trilogy and they have just announced the reboot of Total Warhammer fantasy...)

Game of Thrones would actually be a step forward that might bring historical players too, since GoT is heavily inspired by the Wars of the Roses. However I'm sure the commercial licence will be quite expensive, but seeing how there's a lot of various board games about GoT with license, I don't think that would be an issue.

Game of Thrones: Total War sounds also a bit redundant. So GoT TW would probably be TW GoT.

Fantasy games in the TW franchise give plenty of options to the developers - fantasy is not restrained by the historical facts, which is a big plus for devs wanting to try something fresh.

We have Warhammer, LOTR is also a new option (and very profitable too, judging by how popular LOTR mods are) and of course Game of Thrones would work perfectly with Total War. It would create a sort of Disciples II game, the mix between fantasy and history, so I guess they are also looking at other options.

I agree that historical title is unlikely to be the next TW main game. despite the fact that the developers have all they need in matter of textures, weapons, body and horse models, a historical title requires realistic features that CA/SEGA last decade developers failed to accomplish. So fantacy is more likely to be the next title having a wizzard (instead of rain) to demolish walls inorder the stupod BAI to be able to invasde to a settlement. Game of Thrones is a good candidate simply because after the first good impresions the series ended as a failure. 20 years after the Fallowship of the Ring the movie still has more views in broadcasts and sales than the GoT. So GoT author and who has teh rights would be an easier to aproach with a decent financial offer.
edit: An ither issue is th efact that CA/SEGA has the modding community competition in historical titles with graphics alsmost as good as those we pay for to have!

[komisarek]

I agree that historical title is unlikely to be the next TW main game. despite the fact that the developers have all they need in matter of textures, weapons, body and horse models, a historical title requires realistic features that CA/SEGA last decade developers failed to accomplish. So fantacy is more likely to be the next title having a wizzard (instead of rain) to demolish walls inorder the stupod BAI to be able to invasde to a settlement. Game of Thrones is a good candidate simply because after the first good impresions the series ended as a failure. 20 years after the Fallowship of the Ring the movie still has more views in broadcasts and sales than the GoT. So GoT author and who has teh rights would be an easier to aproach with a decent financial offer.
edit: An ither issue is th efact that CA/SEGA has the modding community competition in historical titles with graphics alsmost as good as those we pay for to have!

Goods mods take years and many hands to develop - CA tries to release a game once a year or so. You cannot compare or confuse a labour of love with developing a product intended to keep your company going forward. Whereas I don't deny that many mods have absolutely stunning art, normally it takes a very long time to produce and often relies on stitching samples from existing content.

Statement about CA already having textures/models is false. Normally with each iteration of their engine things change, and models / animations / textures all reflect that. CA's games are not asset flips, and people don't appreciate the amount of work that goes into making these titles. Interestingly enough I think that Warhammer was one of their most ambitious (graphically) undertakings because variety and amount of models, textures, animations and visual effects needed is simply staggering. I'm not at all surprised a lot of factions were put behind DLC because frankly that's some serious content; even if a lot of people just choose to see a bunch of elves running around that are not worth the price.

About the modding side: as companies develop they often begin to use third party tools to speed up development. I believe CA is guilty of just that here; hence a lot of stuff is left unmodable. I read somewhere that their map gets built and compressed overnight - resulting in a hundreds of gigs worth of data being compressed into something much more manageable. I believe GW's stance on copyright and their burning crusade towards anything that mildly reassembles their content didn't help the modding scene of Warhammer games - therefore no total conversions or anything like that.

As someone mentioned previously, fantasy offers a lot more opportunities to show off. Whether you agree with it or not, historical community is often very toxic. All you have to do is look at channels of people like Volound or see some "reviews" of Rome 2. The amount of times I hear "warscape has no collision" or "Rome 2 is ugly" is just crazy. These games had certain design choices, which a lot of people don't like, but they completely disregard that most people LOVE them. Rome 2 remains the most successful historical Total War to this day, despite being released so many years ago. The community, by and large, has not moved past Medieval 2 - demanding change but at the same time wanting everything to be the same like in the old games. You can not please everyone. Look at Rome Remastered - half said "not enough changes", other half said "too many changes", other people keep spouting lies about UI such as that there is no big panel preview of buildings, or that you can't see enemy unit stats... More and more I grow convinced that the Total War community just does not know what it wants, and they will hate on anything that they get anyway, because it's not the games they used to play in the past.

I really hope CA will continue pumping out great games, because I absolutely love both Troy and Warhammer, and I've been with this series since Shogun 1.