View Poll Results: What shall be done?

Voters
35. You may not vote on this poll
  • Revoke Citizenship

    16 45.71%
  • Dismiss

    13 37.14%
  • Abstain

    6 17.14%
Page 1 of 8 12345678 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 142

Thread: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

  1. #1
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Nidaros
    Posts
    6,654
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Ostrakon - Pontifex Maximus



    Greetings citizens. An Ostrakon has been initiated towards Pontifex Maximus. I have posted it below, after which Pontifex Maximus' defence follows. There will be a three day discussion time, before a poll lasting 7 days with the options of Dismiss, Revoke Citizenship and Abstain will be added. A 2/3rds majority of non-abstaining votes is required for revocation. It is therefore up to you, the general citizenry to debate and determine the outcome of this.

    The Accusation

    Pontifex Maximus’ behavior makes him no longer fit to be a citizen anymore. I don’t enjoy this, so I will try to be brief.

    The big reason why one might disagree with me is because of this member’s exemplary service to the site: Moderator for over three years, Content Staff, Gaming Staff, and CdeC for over two years, and even a former administrator. A very impressive resume.

    Most of that commendable service was over a decade ago. I seriously doubt that he is still the man he was. Here are my points against him:
    Four citizen referrals in two months in 2018, two of which warranted temporary suspension of rank.
    Multiple, possibly a double-digit number, of infractions and notes in the last two and a half years. A former admin receiving a single infraction is simply embarrassing enough as is.
    If he ever had any emeritus positions, he doesn’t anymore. If he never had any, he was never offered it. He’s been in pretty much every branch of TWC Staff, but the people in charge of it now have declined let him have any further say in its operations again. I would be surprised if any branch of staff would accept his reapplication and trust Pontifex Maximus to hold himself to a higher standard of behavior than the strict letter of the rules of site (not that he does particularly well in that department either).
    To put it bluntly, his temperament is plain bad. A textbook example of arguing in bad faith. Pontifex Maximus one of the most pointlessly hostile and disruptive posters in the Discussion and Debate forums. I have him on my ignore list, but I can still see how pretty every thread he consistently posts in gets steadily lower in nuance and quality.


    As someone who used to run this site, Pontifex Maximus should be fully cognizant of how he has become the exact kind of problem poster he spent so long fighting against as a Moderator and Administrator. The fact that he knowingly acts this way is simply inexcusable for a citizen.



    The Defence
    This sort of evidenceless, emotional, and personally driven diatribe posing as moral superiority is exactly why TWC has lost its luster. My posts are the subject of disingenuous and cynical misinterpretation and those with a personal axe to grind have literally admitted to keeping my posts on ice for eight years to be used against me at a later date. The same people who accuse me of being favored by moderation are the ones that use lack of emeritus status as a reason to get rid of me.

    I digress, let's get to the "merits" of this

    possibly a double-digit number, of infractions and notes in the last two and a half years

    We have procedure for discipline through that already, this is mere surplusage and wildly unsupported speculation. The person bringing this, as if we don't know who that is, demands that a special standard be created for me independent of the ToS, Constitution, and any other objective standard of discipline.

    If he ever had any emeritus positions, he doesn’t anymore. If he never had any, he was never offered it. He’s been in pretty much every branch of TWC Staff, but the people in charge of it now have declined let him have any further say in its operations again. I would be surprised if any branch of staff would accept his reapplication and trust Pontifex Maximus to hold himself to a higher standard of behavior than the strict letter of the rules of site (not that he does particularly well in that department either).


    I'm the one arguing in bad faith, but this is talking out of both sides of your mouth and calls for complete speculation. How he purports to speak for all TWC staff is shocking enough, but the fact he is willing to present this as evidence of wrong doing warranting my removal is even worse. Are citizens not allowed to be citizens if they do not hold an emeritus position?

    To put it bluntly, his temperament is plain bad. A textbook example of arguing in bad faith. Pontifex Maximus one of the most pointlessly hostile and disruptive posters in the Discussion and Debate forums.


    My temperament is bad and I'm pointlessly hostile and disruptive, yet this user has seen fit to abuse this process in order to level nothing more than slanderous insults my way because even though he has me on an ignore list, he cannot control his impulses. Perhaps this is why the complaint lacks anything but baseless personal insults, how is someone who has me on an ignore list supposed to make any qualitative judgment of what I post? The person bringing this referral cowers behind the process of an ostrakon to do nothing more but hurl insults.

    As someone who used to run this site, Pontifex Maximus should be fully cognizant of how he has become the exact kind of problem poster he spent so long fighting against as a Moderator and Administrator.


    There you have it folks, the insulter in chief behind this ostrakon would have you apply a special, pontifex shaped box of posting standards independent of the rules, independent of the nebulous posting standards for citizens, and independent of the run of the mill muddy mudpit type posts.

    The personal animus involved in bringing this shocks the conscience, and its cynical request of the citizen body is an insult to this process. When I ran for office last year this is what I hoped to accomplish, and I resigned when I figured it was a pointless goal. This ostrakon vindicates my decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Maybe it would just be better if we all gave one another the benefit of the doubt as working in good faith to accomplish something as opposed to rivals seeking to plant the flag on an increasingly narrow strip of land?



    Please use the following days to discuss this below.

    - King Athelstan
    Last edited by King Athelstan; January 26, 2021 at 08:00 AM.
    Proudly under the patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader
    Proud patron of 4zumi, Akar, CommodusIV ,Swaeft
    and Peaman






  2. #2
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    15,935

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    This is thin as hell. Temperament and niceness was never a criteria, we have plenty of crabby sea captains in the Curia. Notes don't matter, and infractions are generally punished with suspension of citizenship, and I have no memory of Pontifex being suspended. In fact quite the opposite he's held variuous curial offices over the last couple of years, and having active infractions prevents you from holding any.

    Honestly to me this reads as sombody who is butthurt over politics trying to snipe at him. This is frivolous use of Ostrakon at best and, if the proposer is a citizen, completely unbecoming of a citizen.

    It's vommit inducing stuff like this that makes people steer clear of the Curia.

    Opposed.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; January 26, 2021 at 08:23 AM.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  3. #3

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Opposed.

    The lack of evidence provided in the complaint combined with its over reliance on alleged historic offences leads me to accept the defendant’s evidenced position that this action was motivated by personal animus rather than a justified concern about a specific incident or series of incidents. I further agree with the accused that he is the subject of repeated attacks by a certain contingent of users who, for personal and political reasons, believe that he should be held to a “special standard”.

    These are my responses to the specific accusations made by the complainant:

    • Unspecified referrals from years ago do not provide a basis for initiating disciplinary action today. If the complainant felt they warranted further measures, he should have introduced them at the time.

    • There is currently a constitutional provision which mandates the temporary revocation of Citizenship for Citizens who incur infractions. If the accused had any active infractions, his Citizenship would already have been suspended. As above, historic offences (for which the accused has already been punished according to the regulations of this site) do not provide a basis for action today.

    • The complainant is in no position to speak on behalf of the site’s staff. Whether or not the accused was ever offered Emeritus status is irrelevant to whether he should be entitled to Citizenship, as is whether his hypothetical staff applications would be successful. Even so, and contrary to the complainant's suggestions, the administration has felt no need to intercede to prevent the defendant’s recent election to a curial position.

    • The claim that the accused has a “bad temperament” would likely be insufficient to justify an Ostrakon, even if the complainant had introduced any evidence to support the assertion. As it is, we are left with nothing specific to consider beyond vague allegations.
    Last edited by Cope; January 26, 2021 at 10:06 AM.

  4. #4
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Roma in aeternum
    Magistrate

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    campus Martis
    Posts
    7,019
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    There are no specific complaints attached to this accusation other than a broad generalization of "arguing in bad faith". It is the responsibility of the plaintiff in this case to provide specific examples to support his assertions.

    This was a poorly thought out and prepared document. As pointed out by others in this thread, if he had any infractions or moderation interactions his citizenship would have already been revoked.

    The Constitution, in Section III, states,
    "A citizen initiates an ostrakon by making a case via private message to the Consul, who determines if an ostrakon has merit."
    The argument of the plaintiff in this case is not developed enough to warrant this ostrakon. It was my belief that accusations such as this would be filtered by the Consul to block the use of this procedure for personal conflicts and group bias.

    I suggest that this submission be withdrawn.
    Last edited by Gaius Baltar; January 26, 2021 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Add Information



    Pillaging and Plundering since 2006

    Neither is this the dawn from the east, nor is a dragon flying above, nor are the gables of this hall aflame. Nay, mortal enemies approach in ready armour. Ravens are calling, wolves are howling, spear clashes and shield answers


  5. #5
    pacifism's Avatar see the day
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    purple mountains majesty
    Posts
    1,958
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    I’d just like to point out that someone who supposedly keeps quotes of Pontifex Maximus probably didn’t write an ostracon that doesn’t feature any quotes.

    I’ve read quite a few of his posts over the last while as a member and a Moderator, and please let me know if you find a political post where he isn’t assuming other views of people he disagrees with, clutching at pearls and defending his honor when someone does the same to him, or whining about liberals or the left. If I had to ballpark it, I’d say his posts are about as much of a boon to this site as someone like Basil II the B.S.. Just click on the name, select “View Forum Posts”, jump to a random page, and start reading them. Tell me if you would patronize him, because that is what he is currently offering to the site. Seriously, find one semi-recent post that is undeniably worth reading and I will take it back.

    I sincerely dislike the idea that someone once so regarded has been reduced to scaring away newcomers and killing what’s left of this site by spamming low quality posts and being so negative all the time. If you play Dungeons and Dragons or whatever with him and consider him a friend, that’s nice, but I really don’t care. Being your pal does not make anyone worthy of being officially listed as one of the best members of this site, now does it? I’m getting a little tired of watching a citizen teetering along and being as hostile as the rules allow until he slips up and accidentally breaks one of them. It’s simply not what being a citizen means. It’s bad faith.

    I’m not saying this because I disagree with his political opinions, although his propensity for using racial stereotypes does put a damper on our relationship. If his posts were remotely considerate, I wouldn’t be writing this. If his posts were remotely informative, I wouldn’t be writing this. If there is a single post that I thought was valuable, I wouldn’t be writing this. If all of his posts were merely average, I wouldn’t be writing this. It’s simply embarrassing that he still has the same rank that we give to the hardworking modders, creative writers, and thoughtful debaters such as yourselves on this site.

    If nothing else, maybe this will get the ball rolling on what our standards for behavior for citizens should look like. I was under the impression that it's above "barely following the rules".

    Quote Originally Posted by King Athelstan View Post
    Pontifex Maximus’ behavior makes him no longer fit to be a citizen anymore. I don’t enjoy this, so I will try to be brief.

    The big reason why one might disagree with me is because of this member’s exemplary service to the site: Moderator for over three years, Content Staff, Gaming Staff, and CdeC for over two years, and even a former administrator. A very impressive resume.

    Most of that commendable service was over a decade ago. I seriously doubt that he is still the man he was. Here are my points against him:
    Four citizen referrals in two months in 2018, two of which warranted temporary suspension of rank.
    Multiple, possibly a double-digit number, of infractions and notes in the last two and a half years. A former admin receiving a single infraction is simply embarrassing enough as is.
    If he ever had any emeritus positions, he doesn’t anymore. If he never had any, he was never offered it. He’s been in pretty much every branch of TWC Staff, but the people in charge of it now have declined let him have any further say in its operations again. I would be surprised if any branch of staff would accept his reapplication and trust Pontifex Maximus to hold himself to a higher standard of behavior than the strict letter of the rules of site (not that he does particularly well in that department either).
    To put it bluntly, his temperament is plain bad. A textbook example of arguing in bad faith. Pontifex Maximus one of the most pointlessly hostile and disruptive posters in the Discussion and Debate forums. I have him on my ignore list, but I can still see how pretty every thread he consistently posts in gets steadily lower in nuance and quality.


    As someone who used to run this site, Pontifex Maximus should be fully cognizant of how he has become the exact kind of problem poster he spent so long fighting against as a Moderator and Administrator. The fact that he knowingly acts this way is simply inexcusable for a citizen.
    - Of the four citizen referrals, only one was due to an infraction. At least one suspension of rank was due to something that was not violating the Terms of Service.
    - Kind of weak. Whatever. Admins themselves would have to say whether they would accept a hypothetical reapplication. Due to Staff policies of good behavior that is apparently now much higher than some of the citizens' standards of behavior, I would be surprised if they would.
    - I kind of already covered this.

    In short, I see a clear and consistent pattern of poor behavior full of baiting people and getting personal in the bad way. He has been setting a very poor example of citizen behavior for some time now. Support.

    And let's not forget:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I also announce as of this post that I resign my citizenship indefinitely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian
    This is thin as hell. Temperament and niceness was never a criteria, we have plenty of crabby sea captains in the Curia. Notes don't matter, and infractions are generally punished with suspension of citizenship, and I have no memory of Pontifex being suspended. In fact quite the opposite he's held variuous curial offices over the last couple of years, and having active infractions prevents you from holding any.
    That’s all your opinion. In my opinion, you set the bar way too low by acting like someone’s attitude doesn’t matter or that notes don’t matter. I seem to recall that my "temperament and niceness" was a contributing factor to how I got my own citizenship.

    What’s the point of keeping ostracon procedures in the first place if the suspension due to infraction is enough punishment and the Curia should not bother to pursue its own disciplinary procedures as it sees fit? Also, suspension of citizenship due infractions has only been a guarantee since September 2020.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope
    The lack of evidence provided in the complaint combined with its over reliance on alleged historic offences leads me to accept the defendant’s evidenced position that this action was motivated by personal animus rather than a justified concern about a specific incident or series of incidents. I further agree with the accused that he is the subject of repeated attacks by a certain contingent of users who, for personal and political reasons, believe that he should be held to a “special standard”.
    People who he constantly antagonizes and baits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope
    Unspecified referrals from years ago do not provide a basis for initiating disciplinary action today. If the complainant felt they warranted further measures, he should have introduced them at the time.


    There is currently a constitutional provision which mandates the temporary revocation of Citizenship for Citizens who incur infractions. If the accused had any active infractions, his Citizenship would already have been suspended. As above, historic offences (for which the accused has already been punished according to the regulations of this site) do not provide a basis for action today.
    Better late than never, I guess. As for the rest… not to repeat myself, but that’s your just own standard for citizen behavior. I think that people like Pontifex Maximus are allowing that mindset to continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope
    The claim that the accused has a “bad temperament” would likely be insufficient to justify an Ostrakon, even if the complainant had introduced any evidence to support the assertion. As it is, we are left with nothing specific to consider beyond vague allegations.
    You’ve got to be joking.
    Last edited by Tango12345; January 27, 2021 at 04:38 AM. Reason: cleanup
    Read the latest TWC Content and check out the Wiki!
    ---
    Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    I’ve read quite a few of his posts over the last while as a member and a Moderator, and please let me know if you find a political post where he isn’t assuming other views of people he disagrees with, clutching at pearls and defending his honor when someone does the same to him, or whining about liberals or the left.
    Happily.

    If I had to ballpark it, I’d say his posts are about as much of a boon to this site as someone like Basil II the B.S
    Not even content to stay on topic yourself, you have to drag another member through the mud as well.

    Just click on the name, select “View Forum Posts”, jump to a random page, and start reading them. Tell me if you would patronize him, because that is what he is currently offering to the site. Seriously, find one semi-recent post that is undeniably worth reading and I will take it back.
    Ignoring that this is subjective, it also applies a fake, made up standard.

    I sincerely dislike the idea that someone once so regarded has been reduced to scaring away newcomers and killing what’s left of this site by spamming low quality posts and being so negative all the time.
    Another accusation made without any evidence, reeking of personal dislike. You signed up two years after I ran the show, so spare me this institutional wisdom you claim to hold.

    If you play Dungeons and Dragons or whatever with him and consider him a friend, that’s nice, but I really don’t care.
    Way to lead by example. Talking down to people and then dismissing them is a sure fire way to, in your words, "scaring away newcomers and killing what’s left of this site by spamming low quality posts and being so negative all the time." Hypocrisy at its finest.

    Being your pal does not make anyone worthy of being officially listed as one of the best members of this site, now does it?
    Best members? According to whom? You? I'd say I'm flattered but...

    I’m not saying this because I disagree with his political opinions
    Yes, your post is completely reasonable and objective lmao.

    although his propensity for using racial stereotypes does put a damper on our relationship.
    Source needed.

    If his posts were remotely considerate, I wouldn’t be writing this. If his posts were remotely informative, I wouldn’t be writing this. If there is a single post that I thought was valuable, I wouldn’t be writing this. If all of his posts were merely average, I wouldn’t be writing this. It’s simply embarrassing that he still has the same rank that we give to the hardworking modders, creative writers, and thoughtful debaters such as yourselves on this site.
    Citizenship doesn't in any way require ongoing contribution. If it did, we would strip it from people who have contributed nothing for ten years. But we don't. You're applying a fake, made up standard because it is obvious you don't like me.
    Last edited by z3n; January 26, 2021 at 05:52 PM. Reason: continuity

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    This is a farce. No evidence has been proffered for any of the outrageous claims made in this pathetic attempt at an ostrakon. I move for the Consul to immediately dismiss this matter. Even staff have tainted themselves by breaking their own rules in attempting to deprive me of citizenship. This is unprecedented. Shut it down!

    This Ostrakon fails for failing to meet a condition precedent: there is no predicate infraction at issue here. Section 3, Article 1:

    "If a citizen receives an infraction the Consul suspends their citizenship until the infraction has expired or is revoked.

    If a citizen believes an offense by another citizen is egregious enough to bring before the entire Curia that citizen may initiate an Ostrakon"
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; January 26, 2021 at 02:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    15,935

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    That’s all your opinion. In my opinion, you set the bar way too low by acting like someone’s attitude doesn’t matter or that notes don’t matter. I seem to recall that my "temperament and niceness" was a contributing factor to how I got my own citizenship.

    What’s the point of keeping ostracon procedures in the first place if the suspension due to infraction is enough punishment and the Curia should not bother to pursue its own disciplinary procedures as it sees fit? Also, suspension of citizenship due infractions has only been a guarantee since September 2020.
    Problem is you're opening a whole new can of worms here. Doattitude and post quality by themselves matter, in which case citizenship should be revoked if people change over time and post quality drops, or is citizenship a reward for past contributions in which case current attitude does not matter unless it is provably harmfull to the site. You can have one or the either in my view. I choose to go with the latter. If you think the former is more important or has greater merrits let's talk about it here in the Curia.

    I rembmer your application. I was among the people who hammered on about your attitude and friendliness, and I may have written that in a recommandation iirc, however attitude alone did not get you your citizenship nor did it get anyone ostrakoned until now - to my knowledge. With your application as with all other applications temperament was something akin to a nice to have on a recruitment flier. It's great if you have it but can still get in if you don't don't. Otherwise Joseph Simonyi would be a citizen now.

    And regardless, even fi you are right, this ostrakon is still a farce because the person who has initiated it - and I am 90% certain I know exactly who it is - did it for all the wrong reasons.

    Not like this. Not out petty vendetta and spite. Not as part of an ongoing smear campaign by two users I won't name.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    What’s the point of keeping ostracon procedures in the first place if the suspension due to infraction is enough punishment and the Curia should not bother to pursue its own disciplinary procedures as it sees fit? Also, suspension of citizenship due infractions has only been a guarantee since September 2020.
    I may be judging by different scales than you but in both my terms as censor and during the terms of the people that came before and after me any infraction for insulting others = 1 month off to cool down except for cases where it was iffy such calling someone an sjw, but even that one ended in a 1 month suspension as a compromise. I admit I stopped paying attention to the Curia around 2018 but I like to think that Hex kept the standard for Censors high.

    I feel where you are coming from but you are posting on a site with 60 active members total and thinking like it still has 3000 like it did in 2014.
    Last edited by z3n; January 26, 2021 at 06:14 PM. Reason: continuity
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  9. #9
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
    Patrician Artifex

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,152

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Opposed. I think we all expected something concrete if there was to be an Ostrakon.
    The AI Workshop Creator
    Europa Barbaroum II AI/Game Mechanics Developer
    The Northern Crusades Lead Developer
    Classical Age Total War Retired Lead Developer
    Rome: Total Realism Animation Developer
    RTW Workshop Assistance MTW2 AI Tutorial & Assistance
    Broken Crescent Submod (M2TW)/IB VGR Submod (BI)/Animation (RTW/BI/ALX)/TATW PCP Submod (M2TW)/TATW DaC Submod (M2TW)/DeI Submod (TWR2)/SS6.4 Northern European UI Mod (M2TW)

  10. #10
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    17,276
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Support.

    Pontifex's behaviour recently has been nothing short of intentionally disruptive and childish. There is nothing there that leads me to believe he cares enough about this site still to retain his citizenship. I know it's intentionally disruptive, because I've seen him say he's being intentionally disruptive on Discord. If you're bored and tired of the site (as you continuously complain to me), then move on and stop needlessly causing disruption and drama.

    Past infractions have no bearing on the case at hand, if they did I would never be a citizen or staff member or any of the other things I've been here. I have literally 3 pages of infractions, but that hasn't stopped me from contributing. There is a plethora of good reasons to ostrakon Pontifex, but past infractions are not one of them.

    although his propensity for using racial stereotypes does put a damper on our relationship.
    You're seriously going to pretend that you don't use racial stereotypes? Should I scroll back through our discord conversations and find all of the times you've been blatantly racist? If you want I can dig back through all your posts and find a litany of examples for people of your propensity for racism. I mean for christ sake man, I literally had to completely ban discussion of politics on my discord because you and Cope wouldn't stop circle jerking about racism and white supremacy. It was ing disgusting.

    Citizenship doesn't in any way require ongoing contribution. If it did, we would strip it from people who have contributed nothing for ten years. But we don't. You're applying a fake, made up standard because it is obvious you don't like me.
    He didn't say it required ongoing contribution, but it certainly requires a good attitude and leading by example for non-citizen members.

    I love Pontifex and consider him a good friend, but Pacifism and whomever created this Ostrakon are completely right on almost every point.
    Last edited by Akar; January 26, 2021 at 06:25 PM.

    Want to play TWC D&D? Click here | Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    If you'd like you see my graphics workshop click here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan

    Proud Patron of Sara Temer and Cope






  11. #11

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    People who he constantly antagonizes and baits.
    I often feel "antagonized" and "baited" by certain members (including senior members) in the D&D; that's just the nature of online political discussion. The ToS provides adequate protection, particularly now that a single infraction incurs a mandatory suspension of Citizenship.

    Better late than never, I guess. As for the rest… not to repeat myself, but that’s your just own standard for citizen behavior. I think that people like Pontifex Maximus are allowing that mindset to continue.
    A vacuous remark given the absence of clearly defined parameters for behaviour which would warrant a revocation of Citizenship by this process.

    You’ve got to be joking.
    The Constitution requires that an Ostrakon can only be initiated in response to an "offence" of an "egregious" nature. It implies the existence of some specific act which can be impartially examined by the Curia. Unsupported allegations of "bad temperament" do not meet this threshold, particularly when they are motivated by personal animus.

  12. #12
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    17,276
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Ahh yes, the classic defense of attacking the idea that an accusation can even be laid rather than defending from what the accusation lays out. The defense of those who know they have no argument at all.

    The Constitution requires that an Ostrakon can only be initiated in response to an "offence" of an "egregious" nature.
    And no, Cope, that's an intentionally misleading and disingenuous misquote of the constitution. You know better than that, mate. Here's what the constitution actually says...

    If a citizen believes an offense by another citizen is egregious enough to bring before the entire Curia that citizen may initiate an Ostrakon.
    I find it interesting as well that your post seems to contradict itself.

    For example, below you claim that the constitution does not have clearly defined parameters for ostrakon.
    A vacuous remark given the absence of clearly defined parameters for behaviour which would warrant a revocation of Citizenship by this process.
    But then you go ahead and pretend like the constitution does actually outline a procedure or guideline for ostrakon outside of the opinion of a member that behaviour reaches the sufficient threshold.
    The Constitution requires that an Ostrakon can only be initiated in response to an "offence" of an "egregious" nature. It implies the existence of some specific act which can be impartially examined by the Curia. Unsupported allegations of "bad temperament" do not meet this threshold, particularly when they are motivated by personal animus.
    Also, the very fact that Athelstan (the consul) posted this Ostrakon proves that he believed it to have merit and makes it valid.

    A citizen initiates an ostrakon by making a case via private message to the Consul, who determines if an ostrakon has merit. If an ostrakon has merit:
    If the Ostrakon did not have merit, it would not have been posted. Ergo, because it was posted, it has merit. Any further discussion about the merits of this ostrakon rather than the substance of it should probably be considered off topic.
    Last edited by Akar; January 26, 2021 at 06:52 PM.

    Want to play TWC D&D? Click here | Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    If you'd like you see my graphics workshop click here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan

    Proud Patron of Sara Temer and Cope






  13. #13
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
    Patrician Citizen Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    20,578

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Below are three examples of past Ostraka (!sic!) with varying levels of evidence presented. The present one does not have the bare minimum .

    1
    2
    3

  14. #14
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,305
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Any further discussion about the merits of this ostrakon rather than the substance of it should probably be considered off topic.
    What substance is this? All we have so far is:


    • Four citizen referrals, of which two were dismissed, and the other two resulting in a brief suspension
    • A vague number of infractions, without any comment on their nature or whether or not they were successfully appealed
    • A cynical and by all accounts rather inappropriate comment about his lack of emeritus status, which should probably be struck from the proposal without an official statement from staff, as per SND procedures in the Constitution (I.I#4)
    • Vague claims about bad temperament and arguing in bad faith
    • Allegations about scaring away new members and 'killing the site', without anything to back them up
    • Allegations of intentionally disruptive posting, with no evidence presented either of the posting itself, or admittance of the purported intent
    • Equally vague - but very serious - allegations about racist posting, again with no evidence


    That's no home run; it's barely a limp to first base. Got quite a ways to go if this proposal is hoping to convince anyone. Perhaps those proposing and/or supporting it could actually provide something to back up these claims? My first instinct was to oppose, partly due to how lacking the proposal is, and also partly due to the fact that I believe Ponti's behaviour has been a lot better since his rather vocal anti-TWC crusade in 2018 (which, one could argue, may have warranted an Ostrakon back then). But now that allegations of racism that have been raised, those especially needs to be substantiated pronto, because that's a very serious accusation - and one that I hope the two of you haven't made lightly.
    Last edited by Hitai de Bodemloze; January 26, 2021 at 08:47 PM.

  15. #15
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    8,746
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    If you play Dungeons and Dragons or whatever with him and consider him a friend, that’s nice, but I really don’t care.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    Below are three examples of past Ostraka (!sic!) with varying levels of evidence presented. The present one does not have the bare minimum .

    1
    2
    3
    Based on this, my opinion is that the accusation is too thin. I shall be abstaining however, obviously.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  16. #16
    chriscase's Avatar Princess Thunderballs
    Civitate Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,601

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    There is plenty of precedent for citizens who take the antagonistic element of debate a bit too far - or perhaps just up to the point of being disruptive. However, if a member really goes too far, we have the checking mechanisms of moderation / citizen referral as well as the counterbalance of the Tribunal. It seems to me that's probably the best way we have to make sure a member who may have stepped wrong isn't being treated unfairly. I'm not sure I see the point of this additional proceeding, though I rarely post here.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
    - Demetri Martin

  17. #17
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    8,746
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    But now that allegations of racism that have been raised, those especially needs to be substantiated pronto, because that's a very serious accusation - and one that I hope the two of you haven't made lightly.
    Perhaps the ‘evidence’ is below this post...
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Interesting. Based on reading Pontifex Maximus' defense it looks like he thinks I wrote the accusation piece as three of the example's he attacks belong to me. I didn't write it. Though, given that he refers to someone putting him in the ignore list maybe he doesn't think that. I don't have him on the ignore list. What's funny here is that he's using 7 months old posts to make a point about how ridiculous it is to make a point about old posts...

    Anyways, as far as I know he's barred from private messaging me after a number of personal attacks that were moderated and a bunch of other hostile unmoderated posts. That should have been enough by itself to reevaluate his Citizenship.

    What's the evidence? His entire posting history; the personal attacks he hurls around, the right away bad faith approach, his constant attacks on the site staff, so on and on. I wonder how many of his posts have been moderated in the past month alone.

    Didn't he leave the site relatively recently, denouncing any title and showing the middle finger? I was surprised to seem him back in just a few months. Now he's defending his place in an "institution" he belittled not so long ago. Strange. Though it was stranger to give him his Citizenship back in the first place. I will surely start posting some examples when I have more time tonight.

    Lastly, there is the attitude we see in the defense portion. It's more of a lash out than a defense.

    So, yeah, support.


    EDIT - Here are some instances from his latest posts from the past 8 days:

    Two moderated for off-topic posting and insult:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I gave you a source refuting your sad, tired claim of 'muh conservative racisms and not wanting the brown people to vote.' You ignored it then claimed victory. Sort of like every federal court when confronted with evidence of election fraud in 2020 and then ruling there's no evidence.

    The fake audience watching this debate just gasped in shock at how great my arguments are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    An anonymous insulted me via rep, and I want his guts for garters. Alternatively, I will accept REParations in the form of a x10 multiplier of that rep point or to have my post count permanently adjusted to 69,420. I await your decision in this scandal
    Others:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I'm not defending the capital hill rioters, I denounce them. Your disingenuous analysis is just more evidence of ideological capture. The corollary assumptions you've made of my politics, without actually engaging in any inquiry thereof, is just more evidence of your evidentiary sloth and ideological capture.

    So far you seem waaaay more obsessed with Trump than I am.

    Oh yeah, you've proven that. He lives in your head rent free, jeez.

    Yikes! Oh how far some have fa...oh well anyway lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    It's what you said by omission. You tried to fence sit with a lame comment about how stupid I am but what I said was pretty clear. Of course you're free to clarify your position. Come to think of it I can't remember the last time you actually took a concrete position on something, just sniping about how unintelligent everything is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    It's a joke, because that explanation is trash. I've seen more sophisticated plots hatched by 10 year olds. The fact anyone believes that theory is crazy to me. The fact anyone thought it could actually work beggars belief. And to do all that without firing a single shot. Amazin'
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I remember when I used to record pvp battles with Youtubers over TW titles. This is weak as hell. This sort of weak article was something I'd expect out of a junior librarian in order to keep hit job. No substance, no enthusiasm. A disgrace which is unfortunately highlighted by a total lack of ability to modernize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Just spare me the moralizing and tell me you didn't watch it.

    It really does take an ideologically possessed leftist to believe that an X appointed judge for life won't just carry water for you until they die of old age.

    Update your resume dude, you could be a CNN reporter with a 6 figure salary if your posts here are an accurate reflection of your world view.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; January 27, 2021 at 11:49 AM.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  19. #19
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    High up in the mountains, in my own fortress
    Posts
    7,487

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    Below are three examples of past Ostraka (!sic!) with varying levels of evidence presented.
    3
    I remember this one, I remember what a whole scandal it was on the website. It sort of set the bar for how things like this should be governed.

    Almost 15 years ago...
    Ja mata, TosaInu. Forever remembered.

    Total War Org - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming over France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A finished novel, published on TWC.

    Visit ROMANIA! A land of beauty and culture!

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus

    I am very much on the fence right now. On the one hand I think Ponti could indeed do far better as a Citizen, and that he shows a regular (fairly heavy) disregard for how one ought to comport oneself in discussion and debate (however, that is the case for a whole lot of the Mudpit fellows). On the other hand, I do see a lack of concrete points in the ostrakon initiant's post, and that is something very problematic to my eyes. I understand that there are always loopholes in regulations, and that we should all do our best to meet the spirit of the laws, not just their letter, but when it comes to penalizing individuals, the letter really is the standard that matters. Without a concrete and very clear set of information about what Ponti has done wrong to merit having his citizenship revoked, I do not think I could in good conscience support an ostrakon. To be clear, I still do think Ponti could do a whole lot more to be a contributing positive member, but being a troll is not enough to substantiate a procedure like this.

    In sum, I would like to see some very clear evidence of ways Ponti has acted which call for his citizenship to be revoked. General sentiments of him speaking in bad faith are not enough. Pointing fingers at posts that are so old as to be beyond the statute of limitations is not enough. Saying he wouldn't be made a citizen now with such behavior is also not enough. I believe there needs to be a clear and present reason why he should have his citizenship revoked, which is a very different thing than pointing out that he is not fully acting up to the standards of a citizen anymore (if this were not the case, then every non-active citizen should have an ostrakon levied against them).
    | Community Creative Writing
    | My Library
    | My Mapping Resources
    | My Nabataean AAR for EBII
    | My Ongoing Creative Writing

Page 1 of 8 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •