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Thread: Lindsey Graham suggests invading Mexico to fight the cartels.

  1. #1

    Default Lindsey Graham suggests invading Mexico to fight the cartels.

    https://thehill.com/policy/internati...rce-in-mexico/

    Agreed. Long overdue. If the Biden Admin canít secure the border, the military needs to secure Mexico. Iíve been saying this for years. And the Mexican government needs to be brought on board, by hook or by crook.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #2

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    https://thehill.com/policy/internati...rce-in-mexico/

    Agreed. Long overdue. If the Biden Admin can’t secure the border, the military needs to secure Mexico. I’ve been saying this for years. And the Mexican government needs to be brought on board, by hook or by crook.
    Sure, why not imitate Russia? Are we going to send in child-snatchers like the Russians do in Ukraine as well?

  3. #3
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Sure, why not imitate Russia? Are we going to send in child-snatchers like the Russians do in Ukraine as well?
    Didn't USA do that with the natives? Entire cultures have been practically erased because kids were forcefully raised in different environments.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Didn't USA do that with the natives? Entire cultures have been practically erased because kids were forcefully raised in different environments.
    Yes, in the 19th century. In the 21st mass kidnappings and genocide are frowned upon. To say nothing of the fact that all of the right's whining about the southern border is just a fig leaf over their resentment at having to share the world with dark-skinned "lessers."

  5. #5
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    What I find funny is that those dark-skinned "lessers" are practically needed for the economy. And I don't mean just illegal immigrant cheap labor. I think there are entire sections of USA economy that have a hard time finding people to fill the positions.
    Also, the immigrants are usually conservative compared to middle-class white folk. If the GOP wants to ever win elections honestly, they need more of those and they need them to vote.
    Try telling a Mexican immigrant that abortion at 20 weeks is a right, when most of the states of Mexico ban abortions at 12 weeks and some ban them entirely.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Tfw Democrats cry racism over Republicans seeking to hold Mexico accountable for the murder of Americans by the cartels which clearly own the government there. I guess #BLM is so 2020. Also, no need to kidnap any Mexican kids. They’re already all here.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    https://thehill.com/policy/internati...rce-in-mexico/

    Agreed. Long overdue. If the Biden Admin can’t secure the border, the military needs to secure Mexico. I’ve been saying this for years. And the Mexican government needs to be brought on board, by hook or by crook.
    1st, good luck passing that through the Senate. 2nd, good luck getting public support for boots on the ground in another disastrous invasion.
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    1st, good luck passing that through the Senate. 2nd, good luck getting public support for boots on the ground in another disastrous invasion.
    Is there oil there? If not then it's an unhinged fantasy.

  9. #9

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    What I find funny is that those dark-skinned "lessers" are practically needed for the economy. And I don't mean just illegal immigrant cheap labor. I think there are entire sections of USA economy that have a hard time finding people to fill the positions.
    Also, the immigrants are usually conservative compared to middle-class white folk. If the GOP wants to ever win elections honestly, they need more of those and they need them to vote.
    Try telling a Mexican immigrant that abortion at 20 weeks is a right, when most of the states of Mexico ban abortions at 12 weeks and some ban them entirely.
    You're right about that. Republicans could be making huge gains among Hispanics and other traditionally conservative demographics like Muslims if they dropped the bigotry. But they can't, because they've spent the last fifty years gaslighting their voter base to blame immigrants legal or otherwise, feminists, LGBTQ+, and people of other races for all of their woes and the nation's woes. If they stopped doing that and tried to reach out, their base would see it as a betrayal. Even if they went through with it, there's no guarantee that the groups Republicans have spent decades demonizing would forgive them for it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    1st, good luck passing that through the Senate. 2nd, good luck getting public support for boots on the ground in another disastrous invasion.
    I suppose we should cancel the fight against ISIL as well? 80% of Republicans, 65% of Democrats, and 63% of independents agree the feds should designate Mexican drug cartels as foreign terrorist organizations.

    https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...n_drug_cartels
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #11

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I suppose we should cancel the fight against ISIL as well? 80% of Republicans, 65% of Democrats, and 63% of independents agree the feds should designate Mexican drug cartels as foreign terrorist organizations.

    https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...n_drug_cartels
    Which isn't the same thing as launching an invasion of Mexico as Graham wants.

  12. #12

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Which isn't the same thing as launching an invasion of Mexico as Graham wants.
    The proposed AUMFs Iíve seen are against the cartels, not Mexico. As for Graham, per the article:
    Graham added he would ďintroduce legislation to make certain Mexican drug cartels foreign terrorist organizations under U.S. law and set the stage to use military force if necessary.Ē
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  13. #13
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Is there oil there? If not then it's an unhinged fantasy.
    In the Gulf of Mexico?! Not only there's oil there, there's also rich natural gas reserves! Of course there's oil in Mexico.
    But still, much better to invade Venezuela for that. USA does get oil from the Gulf of Mexico from Florida and Texas. It's not like they are not there and the reserves are so deep that you need high tech methods to get it safely. Well, safety most of the time...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    You're right about that. Republicans could be making huge gains among Hispanics and other traditionally conservative demographics like Muslims if they dropped the bigotry. But they can't, because they've spent the last fifty years gaslighting their voter base to blame immigrants legal or otherwise, feminists, LGBTQ+, and people of other races for all of their woes and the nation's woes. If they stopped doing that and tried to reach out, their base would see it as a betrayal. Even if they went through with it, there's no guarantee that the groups Republicans have spent decades demonizing would forgive them for it.
    Well, in Florida they show signs they do. And in Texas too, BTW. The Republicans are doing their best to disenfranchise the children of the immigrants, I give you that.
    But I still find abhorrent that the Republicans don't try to expand their reach and earn votes, they are trying to win with the votes they have by taking votes away from other people or making sure their votes count for more.
    The Republicans that think as a powerblock that tries to retain power WITHOUT expanding are the "eeeevvuuuul government authoritarians that may try to steal your liberty!" the same Republicans warn people of. The 2nd Amendment? It is there to protect the cities from Republican-minded government officials that try to establish a primacy under a democratic veneer.
    "Those that get the most votes win! We just curb who can vote. " kind of primacy. That's called... oligarchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The proposed AUMFs I’ve seen are against the cartels, not Mexico. As for Graham, per the article:
    Please be reasonable. In 2001, USA attacked a terrorist organization in Afghanistan: Al Qaeda. It just so happened they were in bed with the government there: The Taliban. The rest is 20 years of bloody history.

    That's the same, the exact same thing here: Those terrorist organizations you talk about are in bed with government officials. If you send the army to dislodge the Mexican Cartels, the Mexican army will defend their country's sovereignty as they should and they will do it with great zeal because half of the officers are on the take from these Cartels.



    Or to give you another example:
    Graham wants a thinly veiled "Special Operation" in Mexico to de-drugify instead of de-nazify Mexico.


    Do you understand what I am trying to say here? I am not sure it is as clear as I want to make it (I don't ask if you agree, just if you understand).
    In short, a military operation against organizations deeply embedded in the local government of a different country is an act of war whether you call it "Special Operation" or "War on Terrorism" or whatever.

    this is the first year and a half in my memory that USA is not at war. Do you really want that short period to end?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Graham wants a thinly veiled "Special Operation" in Mexico to de-drugify instead of de-nazify Mexico.

    this is the first year and a half in my memory that USA is not at war. Do you really want that short period to end?
    Again, I havenít seen any proposals for an occupation of Mexico. The US is at war with Islamic terrorism, de facto at war with Russia and with Latin American drug cartels, and preparing for war with China - for example, the small footprint of US forces battling ISIL in Syria alongside coalition forces, often in confrontation with the Syrian government. Mexican cartels have infected the country with networks of violence and narcotics that criss cross the border like itís not even there. The US canít avoid a fight, regardless of whether itís DEA or US Army/Air Force personnel doing it. The Mexican government can be a partner or a bystander. Given the response of the anti-American president to the recent kidnap and murder of Americans by cartels, itís clear whose side heís on.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  15. #15
    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I suppose we should cancel the fight against ISIL as well? 80% of Republicans, 65% of Democrats, and 63% of independents agree the feds should designate Mexican drug cartels as foreign terrorist organizations.

    https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...n_drug_cartels
    We invaded Afghanistan to fight a terrorist organization that the local government was in cahoots with. That turned into a 20 year farce which resulted in a return to status quo and nothing accomplished. The Mexican government is in cahoots with the cartels, any military action against said cartels would inevitably result in a fight with the Mexican government's forces and occupying the vast swaths of the country that are under cartel control.
    Fact:Apples taste good, and you can throw them at people if you're being attacked
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  16. #16
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Again, I haven’t seen any proposals for an occupation of Mexico.
    Hmmmm... here's one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The US can’t avoid a fight, regardless of whether it’s DEA or US Army/Air Force personnel doing it. The Mexican government can be a partner or a bystander. Given the response of the anti-American president to the recent kidnap and murder of Americans by cartels, it’s clear whose side he’s on.
    That will lead to a war as Mexicans defend their sovereignty against an invading country that wants to show them how they should do things.
    What you suggest would sound to Mexicans the same way it would sound to you if Mexico said they wanted to send forces to clean the South from Racists because they are at war with Racism and that the USA could be a bystander or partner.

    It is absurd to tell a sovereign country that they can stand aside or follow in their own country. It will lead to a war.


    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    We invaded Afghanistan to fight a terrorist organization that the local government was in cahoots with. That turned into a 20 year farce which resulted in a return to status quo and nothing accomplished. The Mexican government is in cahoots with the cartels, any military action against said cartels would inevitably result in a fight with the Mexican government's forces and occupying the vast swaths of the country that are under cartel control.
    That.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  17. #17
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Hmmmm... here's one:


    That will lead to a war as Mexicans defend their sovereignty against an invading country that wants to show them how they should do things.
    What you suggest would sound to Mexicans the same way it would sound to you if Mexico said they wanted to send forces to clean the South from Racists because they are at war with Racism and that the USA could be a bystander or partner.

    It is absurd to tell a sovereign country that they can stand aside or follow in their own country. It will lead to a war.
    Mexico doesn't have an army actually capable of fending off an invasion but it's a moot point as they wouldn't fight anyways. The United States technically invaded Mexico in 1917 to try and capture Pancho Villa so there is precedent for the US to use military action in Mexico.

    Afghanistan is not Mexico. Mexico is not a tribal Muslim society located in Central Asia with a myriad of ethnic groups who often like to kill each other. It's not even remotely the same.

    Violence in Mexico is some of the worst it's ever been. Hugs not bullets is not working. In fact the Mexico government has done nothing but empower cartels since Mexico outright refuses to engage them. If people are advocating military action it's because the current strategy isn't working. If you get more incidents of Americans being killed or kidnapped due to Mexican drug cartels you will increase the chance of military action occuring. I suggest Mexico tried to make some leeway here.

  18. #18
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Mexico doesn't have an army actually capable of fending off an invasion but it's a moot point as they wouldn't fight anyways. The United States technically invaded Mexico in 1917 to try and capture Pancho Villa so there is precedent for the US to use military action in Mexico.

    Afghanistan is not Mexico. Mexico is not a tribal Muslim society located in Central Asia with a myriad of ethnic groups who often like to kill each other. It's not even remotely the same.

    Violence in Mexico is some of the worst it's ever been. Hugs not bullets is not working. In fact the Mexico government has done nothing but empower cartels since Mexico outright refuses to engage them. If people are advocating military action it's because the current strategy isn't working. If you get more incidents of Americans being killed or kidnapped due to Mexican drug cartels you will increase the chance of military action occuring. I suggest Mexico tried to make some leeway here.
    Actually, Mexico has the equivalent of myriad ethnic groups: The cartels.
    Furthermore, while Mexico cannot fend off an invasion, that doesn't mean Mexico will not fight if invaded by the USA. Iraq also didn't have any chance against USA in the gulf wars but they put up some fight, giving time for some insurgencies to build up their base after the inevitable defeat of the "mainstream" army. Same as happened to Afghanistan.
    Another example is Vietnam; they didn't have an army to stop an invasion. They lost 3 million combatant, USA lost 57K soldiers and... Vietnam won the war after many years. Same as the Taliban won in Afghanistan.
    And then, there's another thing you didn't take into account: The drug cartel connections in USA. Dirty drug money doesn't stop at the border. There are military officers in USA that take money from the cartels. Same with some local officials. And it's not just dirty money. Tons of USA citizens have business deals with Mexico. If you turn Mexico to Iraq those companies will close.

    To Surmise:
    - That the Mexican army cannot stop a USA invasion doesn't mean they won't fight for their country for as long as they can hold.
    - After the Mexican army loses, you will be facing an insurgency for a great many years, damaging USA's economy as the financial situation of an important trade partner collapses.
    - The cartels will adapt and through bribes and tenacity will hold out in parts of Mexico the same way as extremists held out in Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA doesn't have the manpower to hold down all of Mexico. They will be putting out fires that will keep happening.
    - After 15 years USA will have to retreat because Mexican insurgents can afford to have x10 casualties than USA.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  19. #19
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Actually, Mexico has the equivalent of myriad ethnic groups: The cartels.
    So cartels often kill each other over ethnic or religious reasons? Then no, cartels are not like ethnic groups.
    Furthermore, while Mexico cannot fend off an invasion, that doesn't mean Mexico will not fight if invaded by the USA. Iraq also didn't have any chance against USA in the gulf wars but they put up some fight,
    The Iraqi Army sucked and folded. It was insurgents who were supported by foreign governments who managed to do any damage, and they still didn't win. Iraq isn't Mexico either so I don't get the comparison.

    giving time for some insurgencies to build up their base after the inevitable defeat of the "mainstream" army. Same as happened to Afghanistan.
    Another example is Vietnam; they didn't have an army to stop an invasion. They lost 3 million combatant, USA lost 57K soldiers and... Vietnam won the war after many years. Same as the Taliban won in Afghanistan.
    Vietnam had a real conventional army that was supported by the Soviet Union and China. Mexico's army is complete . They don't have an actual navy or air force unlike Vietnam. Mexico has no vast military experience unlike the Viet Cong or the NVA.
    The US military of 2023 is not the Cold War US military of 1968. There's no real comparison whatsoever. I've already pointed out Mexico isn't Afghanistan.

    And then, there's another thing you didn't take into account: The drug cartel connections in USA. Dirty drug money doesn't stop at the border. There are military officers in USA that take money from the cartels. Same with some local officials.
    If you are going to make a claim cite it. A few dirty military officials are not going to stop US military action in Mexico .

    To Surmise:
    - That the Mexican army cannot stop a USA invasion doesn't mean they won't fight for their country for as long as they can hold.
    - After the Mexican army loses, you will be facing an insurgency for a great many years.
    - The cartels will adapt and through bribes and tenacity will hold out in parts of Mexico the same way as extremists held out in Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA doesn't have the manpower to hold down all of Mexico. They will be putting out fires that will keep happening.
    - After 15 years USA will have to retreat because Mexican insurgents can afford to have x10 casualties than USA.
    I've addressed this outright nonsense.

    Btw you are under the assumption the US will have to occupy Mexico. You can take military action against cartels without a single US soldier stepping foot in Mexico.
    Last edited by Vanoi; March 26, 2023 at 05:10 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: President Biden's first term in office

    Hmmmm... here's one:
    one what?
    It is absurd to tell a sovereign country that they can stand aside or follow in their own country. It will lead to a war.
    As was already pointed out, comparisons to Afghanistan are simply uninformed.
    We invaded Afghanistan to fight a terrorist organization that the local government was in cahoots with. That turned into a 20 year farce which resulted in a return to status quo and nothing accomplished. The Mexican government is in cahoots with the cartels, any military action against said cartels would inevitably result in a fight with the Mexican government's forces and occupying the vast swaths of the country that are under cartel control.
    And the main reason these comparisons are uninformed is, the US military is currently active in dozens of countries - nearly half of all of them - and many failed or failing states around the world fighting terrorism. Adding Mexican cartels to the list probably doesnít mean what you think it does. Even if it did, that doesnít make Mexico the next Afghanistan. It would look more like the previous umpteen Latin American interventions the US military has launched in the last century plus, including Mexico. There may be many reasons why a military solution is or isnít the most effective, but ďwhat about AfghanistanĒ almost certainly isnít one of them.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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