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Thread: Pikemen in the new Version (Normal and Submodded)

  1. #1

    Default Pikemen in the new Version (Normal and Submodded)

    Cheers DEI Team,

    First conrats to the new release! Love the work and effort you guys continue to put into this Mod. I see it like many others, there is really no Rome 2 without DEI.

    Since I only post very very very seldomly on this forum, I thought I give some of my thoughts on this topic. I know at some point the whole Pike-Phalanx Issue was a "hot potatoe" topic and I don´t know what the situation is know. Anyhow...

    Since KAM released the alternative Pike and Hoplite Submods I frankly only played with these submods because I didint like the Pike Phalanx in DEI at that point and thougt KAM`s solution was a very interesting one (I should state that I mostly play hellenic factions in the game, because they are my main historic interest and I think that the DEI Team captured the feel and the estatic of the hellenic armies very well).
    But I recently finished reading "An Invicible Beast: Understandig the Hellenistic Pike Phalanx in Action" by Christopher Matthew and thought I really missed the visual of the formation so when the new beta hit I gave it a go.

    Firstly, I dont know if it has something to do with the game engine but hoplites just push through pikes like they hold paper straws. Roman Units, especially Principes just straight up beat Chalkaspides in a 1v1 in a streetfight were there is no way to flank (and my generall and army was quite experienced, so they had a lot of combat buffs. I played on normal dificulty). That was just one siege, but I noticed that pikes just perform really bad, or at least much worse than they should.

    This made me think, because the more we understand (especially the Book by Matthew really challenges the narrative of the amboss that really had limited offensive power and lack of movement or flexibility) about the sarrisa (the german reanactment group Hetairoi did a lot of testig with reconstructed Sarriasae if I remeber correctly) the more clear it becomes that this was not simply a long stick but a truly terrifigly weapon in the hands of a trained soldier.

    So I have a couple of questions:

    1. Is it a balance descision that hoplites and short sword wielding infantry beat pikes or is it a problem on my games part (no other mods than DEI and the beta) or is it an enginge thing of Rome 2?
    2. Why is the long pike seen as a more defencive weapon (at least that is in the description of the submod)?

    Because from my tests in campain and in custom battle with and against pikes, they seem to perform rather poorly in combat, and I think that this nether really reflects the efficientcy of the weapon in reality (as far as we can actually reconstruct and take from the scources) nor really justify the high recruitment and upkeep costs in game combined with the strong restriciton of beeing part of the second and sometimes first population grp.


    Just some curiosities of mine, thanks for taking time to read and I hope this does not sting in a hornets nest, like I remember the topic used to.

    Cheers,

    Boltgun

  2. #2
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Pikemen in the new Version (Normal and Submodded)

    Pikes are absolute beasts in base DeI, literally strongest infantry units frontally and can rack up kills in hundreds if deployed correctly. Obviously starting regular pikes will take losses even frontally from fighting with late game elite and heavily armoured infantry due to balance reasons and that game does not allow to show weakness of phalanx since it maintans perfect cohesion and all buffs no matter if they are in the woods on rocky ground.
    It is very important to still give attack order to phalanx after it gets charged by enemy or game wont register them as in combat and they wont do much while taking losses. Giving single click or double click from time to time will make them more agressive and rack up ridiculous amounts of kills.

    As a proof, check this screen, basic bronze shields beat early praetorians easily and they are much better than principes and even cost more than bronze shields. If anything, pikes are too strong. This test was just with most basic pikes, better ones can get even more OP results.

    All units can walk through other, same thing still happens in Troy, simply put, game has no collissions for infantry.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    You can visit our discord to learn how to use pikes, although there isnt much to do outside of not letting them get flanked and giving them attack orders.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; January 19, 2021 at 03:46 PM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Pikemen in the new Version (Normal and Submodded)

    Are you sure you had the phalanx formation enabled? And are playing on normal battle difficulty?

    A unit of Chalkaspides should wreck a unit of Principes frontally, shouldn't even be close!

    I almost exclusively play hellenic factions and I have zero complaints about either hoplites or phalangites - once you understand how they differ and how to use them best, it's almost impossible to lose against the AI. The only real weakness phalangites have is against missiles.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pikemen in the new Version (Normal and Submodded)

    I miss these topics!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Pikemen in the new Version (Normal and Submodded)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magas of Cyrene View Post
    I miss these topics!
    He lives .

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