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Thread: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

  1. #1

    Default Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Kingdom of Georgia is not in the Game. but Georgian cavalry was the best in the world of that time. also They were bravest and visually good. They were mercenaries in Byzantine and Mongols armies. They won many battles against Greeks, Parthia ,Rome, Alans, Sasanids, Arabs, Byzantine,Vikings, Turko-Seljuks, Sultanate of Rum , Mongols, Tymurids, Ottomans, Safavid Iran , Dagestan and Others...

    I have an idea : Georgian cavalry 1-2 unit Insert into the game. I can help you with historical accuracy. message me


    https://independent.academia.edu/MamukaTsurtsumia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Georgia


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Didgori

    https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Mili...ory_of_Georgia












    The illustrations are drawn according to military historians. I will provide you with papers if you are interested
















































    Last edited by Khevsur; January 06, 2021 at 05:27 AM.

  2. #2
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Good idea, we might add this as a mercenary unit depending on how we go with our unit slots.

    However, some of the images posted don't look like Tsardoms timeframe at all. Our mod starts in 1345 and ends in 1530. We need late XIVth and XVth century and early XVI century images.

    Also, not a fan of things like X was the great cavalry in the world since that is a bit silly.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Yes, I know. Some illustrations Is 10 th - 13 th centuries. but I know everything , Even the smallest details about Antique and medieval Georgian Army .

    No problem, we will do it exactly



    this is 1250-1400 years Georgian Cavalry































    Last edited by Khevsur; January 05, 2021 at 08:27 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    this is 1400-1500 years Georgian Cavalry












    Iraqi arab auxilary armor,weapons and horse armor is like georgian cavalry
    Last edited by Khevsur; January 05, 2021 at 08:35 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Units are not my modding expertise and the historical accuracy on these are for more knowledgeable teammates to say, but I gotta say those really look good!
    Tsardoms: Total War - Campaign Manager




  6. #6
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Ok cool thank you that's better now. We will take these images into consideration for sure. The question is how frequent were Georgian mercenaries in Golden Horde, Ottoman, Karamanid, Roman armies in the XIV-XVth centuries? I suppose they would have possibly been in Golden Horde armies as mercs. But what about in Anatolian Beyliks and Ottomans?

  7. #7
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Yes are there any battles in Tsardoms where Georgian mercenaries took place? Who hired them?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Ok cool thank you that's better now. We will take these images into consideration for sure. The question is how frequent were Georgian mercenaries in Golden Horde, Ottoman, Karamanid, Roman armies in the XIV-XVth centuries? I suppose they would have possibly been in Golden Horde armies as mercs. But what about in Anatolian Beyliks and Ottomans?
    this is Georgian Military historian Mamuka Tsurtsumia. I know him personally.

    https://independent.academia.edu/MamukaTsurtsumia



    Yes , Vassality, Civil Wars of Empires, Confrontations of Two Empires. After the disintegration of Georgia, Georgian kings and feudal lords helped them . Trebizond Empire was populated by ethnic Georgians lived


    Unfortunately, I do not speak English well. Short sentences are best.
    Last edited by Khevsur; January 05, 2021 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Kingdom of Georgia is not in the Game. but Georgian cavalry was the best in the world of that time. also They were bravest and visually good.
    According to you Georgian units were the best in everything. I really don't know why there was no Georgian Empire the size of Russia then

    I like the idea of perhaps adding Georgian mercenaries if they warrant a spot, but i really want to see any source whatsoever that says that Georgia had the best cavalry in the world. I've never heard that mentioned. So i assume it's just Georgian nationalism. So please give sources

  10. #10

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis88 View Post
    According to you Georgian units were the best in everything. I really don't know why there was no Georgian Empire the size of Russia then

    I like the idea of perhaps adding Georgian mercenaries if they warrant a spot, but i really want to see any source whatsoever that says that Georgia had the best cavalry in the world. I've never heard that mentioned. So i assume it's just Georgian nationalism. So please give sources
    I just do not know English well. Georgian cavalry was powerful, historians write about this, Including Marco Polo
    Last edited by Khevsur; January 05, 2021 at 11:51 AM.

  11. #11
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    this is Georgian Military historian Mamuka Tsurtsumia. I know him personally.

    https://independent.academia.edu/MamukaTsurtsumia

    Yes , Vassality, Civil Wars of Empires, Confrontations of Two Empires. After the disintegration of Georgia, Georgian kings and feudal lords helped them . Trebizond Empire was populated by ethnic Georgians lived

    Unfortunately, I do not speak English well. Short sentences are best.
    Yes but Trebizond Empire is not in our map. Our map only covers Western and Central Anatolia, not Eastern Anatolia. So we need some sources to attest the presence of some sort of Georgian mercenaries in the armies of the Romans, Crimean Khanate/Golden Horde, Karamanids, Ottomans in the XIV-XVI centuries.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Yes but Trebizond Empire is not in our map. Our map only covers Western and Central Anatolia, not Eastern Anatolia. So we need some sources to attest the presence of some sort of Georgian mercenaries in the armies of the Romans, Crimean Khanate/Golden Horde, Karamanids, Ottomans in the XIV-XVI centuries.
    Georgians had battles in Anatolia . Were on the side of the Mongols, Golden Horde and the Temurids.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    If we talk about mercenaries, the Alans (a northern neighbor of Georgians) were the primed foreign medium cavalry for the Romans, whether as medium lance cavalry or medium horse archers. They were in the service for the Byzantines for a long time. Greeks called them as "Massagetoi".

  14. #14
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    Also in 14th and 15th century?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    yes

  16. #16

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    The book The Late Byzantine Army: Arms and Society, 1204-1453 seems to indicate the last Alans employed by the Byzantines were annihilated by the Catalans in 1306.

    I had quite some fun reading it in the last hour and took the time to write it down:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    At a moment when prospects for internal reform in Asia Minor must have seemed quite dim to Andronikos, fortune intervened and raised hopes for a purely military solution. Late in 1301 a group of some 10,000 (Gregoras) to 16,000 (Pachymeres) Alans, half of whom were warriors, suddenly appeared on the northern frontier. Having fled southward from the Mongols, they petitioned the emperor for permission to enter the Empire and become soldiers. Andronikos seized the opportunity and enrolled them as supplemental mercenaries for two campaigns he had been planning. The Alans, generally considered a Christian Turkic people, had last fought for Byzantium during the eleventh and twenfth centuries as mercanaries.

    In the spring of 1302, supplied with money, provisions and horses, the Alans were divided into three groups: one was led by the megas hetaireiarches Mouzalon to fight the Turks aorund Nikomedeia; another, led by Andronikos II's son Michael IX, marched south toward Magnesia. Their wives and children remained in Thrace. The Alans assigned to Mouzalon began to desert as soon as they had crossed into Asia. Bands of them indiscriminately plundered Byzantine territory, and by July 1302, Mouzalon's army consisted of barely 2,000 men, of which perhaps something more than half were Alans. While Mouzalon was defending Nikomedeia, an army composed of some 5,000 light cavalry drawn from nomadic tribes appeared between Nikomedeia and Nicaea. It was commanded by Osman, the Turkish emir of Bithynia. There on the plain of Bapheus Mouzalon's army was defeated. This first major victory for the founder of the Ottoman state, followed as it was by the pillage of the northwest corner of Asia Minor, hastened the flight of the Byzantine population westward.

    Meanwhile, in April 1302 Michael IX departed for Asia with an army of Alans and other troops. His forces remained intact until they reached Magnesia on the Hermos River. Without fighting a pitched battle, the native Byzantine divisions eventually deserted and the Alan mercenaries likewise requested permission to abandon the expedition. Michael persuaded the Alans to remain with him another three months and wrote to Constantinople for additional money. At the end of the three months, the Alans refused to stay any longer and returned to Gallipoli. In a fortress in a hostile terriotry with only a fragment of his army, Michael found himself in a very difficult position. Secretly he fled to Pergamon, but as soon as those in Magnesia heard this news, the remainder of his army and many of the city's inhabitants followed him in a desperate scramble for safety. As for the Alans, after a period of negotiation, they returned their borrowed horses and arms to Andronikos and apparently departed from the Empire.

    [...]

    The Catalans were a violent lot. Bloody confrontations erupted within days between the Catalans and the Genoese of Galata who had helped transport them to the city, and so Andronikos urged them to crosse the Sea of Marmara and billet outside the city of Kyzikos. There they spent the winter of 1303-04 and were joined by the Alans still in Byzantine service who had survived the battle of Bapheus, something less than 1,800 men, whose fates now intertwined with the Catalans. From the start the Alans and the Catalans had little love for one other, and it galled the Alans to learn how little they were being paid in relation to the enormous salaries of the Catalans. An altercation in April 1304 in Kyzikos left 300 Alans dead, including the son of their leader, George. Five hundrede then deserted, so that by May 1304 only a thousand Alans remained with the Catalans, and by the summer of 1304, most of these were gone as well.

    [...]

    The Company spent the winter of 1304-05 at Gallipoli, virtually occupying the peninsula, and in the spring of 1305 they refused to move until their back pay was supplied. New negotiations with the emperor eased tensions, but then events took a significant turn for the worse. For reasons not entirely clear, Roger de Flor decided to visit Michael IX's camp in Adrianople in April 1305. Relations between the Catalans and the imperial army had been strained from the beginning, and in late 1304 Michael had to promise his troops that the Catalans would not join their ranks. Indeed Michael's army now included the Alans who had abandoned the Catalans and who just now had been recalled from the Bulgarian frontier where they had been campaigning with "the Persians of old, whom they called Tourkopouloi," both under the command of the Bulgarian Vojisil and "their own commanders." The Alans were present in Adrianople at the moment Roger de Flor made his fateful visit there. In Michael's camp the Alan leader George avenged the death of his son by murdering Roger, and a riot broke out in which, according to some accounts, all of Roger's 300-man escort was similarly dispatched.

    When this news reached Gallipoli the Catalans vowed revenge. They attacked and plundered everything within their reach. Finally, in July 1305 the Catalans inflicted a crushing defeat on Michael IX's vastly superior forces near the town of Apros in Thrace. According to the anonymous Western author of the Advice for an Overseas Passage, "the Catalans... di not have even 2,500 cavalry, of which there were not 200 of military blood, while Michael was with 14,000 [cavalry] and a multitude of infantry." The Alan light cavalry, forming the left flank along with the Tourkopouloi, both still under the commando of Vojisil, withdrew after the first encounter, contributing decisively to the defeat. The Tourkopouloi the deserted to the Catalans and their Turkish allies. Gregoras adds that "these were the one thousand Tourkopouloi who followed Sultan Izz al-Din when he fled to the Romans, [and] received holy baptism," and whose numbers were augmented by subsequent children. Since the Alans did not have the option of joining the Catalans, they merely pillaged the area around Apros. After this battle the situation in Thrace became hopeless. Evidently the Alans spent the rest of 1305 and early 1306 plundering from winter quarters somewhere in Thrace. About the summer of 1306, with Thrace devastated by the Catalans, the Alans began a migration into Bulgaria, apparently seeking employment with the ruler there. At the foot of the Haimos range the Catalan force caught up with them, and there the remainder of the Alan warriors who had entered Byzantium in 1301 were annihilated and their wives and children enslaved.

    The Alan episode was a major disaster, but since it occurred amid the Catalan crisis, contemporaries as well as modern historians have naturally tended to assign it only secondary importance. Andronikos' error in dealing with the Alans is clear. Every time the Alans deserted the Byzantined forces - either those of Mouzalon, Michael IX, or the CAtalans - they returned to Thrace, to their wives and children. With hindsight it is apparent that Andronikos should have counseled to follow John Vatatzes' example with the Cumans and to expend the effort, time and money to transport all the Alans as a group to Asia. Perhaps they still would have proved to be inadequate soldiers, bit if their families were in Asia, they would have had much more difficulty and much less reason to return to Thrace.
    Last edited by kanteljic; January 05, 2021 at 03:59 PM. Reason: mispelling corrections
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    The Georgians were definitely not the best cavalry in the world, probably fairly dismal compared to many of their neighbors. Forget the terrain of Georgia, just consider who they were surrounded by.
    Last edited by Slaytaninc; January 05, 2021 at 08:26 PM.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    another legendary local georgian expert thread!

    georgia gave us stalin so how can it not be the best in everything?

  19. #19
    saneel's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    No guys, Georgian cavalry was the best in the world, and in reality it were Georgians who stomped half of the world and not Mongols, they are just teaching us wrong history! Some say they were using first bikes and trucks back then, but it is hotly contested debate between historians

  20. #20

    Default Re: Georgian Cavalry in Tsardoms: Total War

    I know English poorly. The behavior of some user is ironic and bullying. It is a shame.

    Georgian cavalry was not the very best in the world, but historically georgian small cavalry is powerful, Professional warriors and won many battles against large armies.

    i like it mod units desinger. i want game team create georgian cavalry .


    https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Mili...ory_of_Georgia
    Last edited by Khevsur; January 06, 2021 at 05:25 AM.

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