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Thread: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

  1. #21
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    You really should change the color of the text, I still don't know what the this thread is about...


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  2. #22
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Can I be the whipping boy?
    only if I can be the test dummy, for the new whips I mean ..

    here, I copied the OP for you here below, can you see it now?

    OP



    The concept of "standards of behavior" has long bedeviled the TWC Citizenship and Curial organizations. Because of the ambiguous phrasing, this has led to a multitude of issues when a citizen receives a moderation or infraction, OR behaves in a manner xxphrase to be inserted herexxxxxxx.

    I propose we alter the approach of the Curia to these issues by adopting and aligning the infraction point system with any proposed punishments, suspensions or loss of office.

    The system would be based on the current point system as outlined in the TOS but adopted for Curial purposes. This will require altering text in the Constitution.

    I use the current TOS wording as a template and have overlayed the proposed Curial infraction point system (CIPS).


    Notes


    Notes are given when the actions of a member require Moderation to officially contact them regarding a violation. They are a formal record of that contact and do not increase a member's Infraction Level in and of themselves, however further violations of the same type would lead to Infractions at Moderation's Discretion. They are recorded both to let other moderators know that the user has been informed of the particular rule, and to give the user a record of all contacts with moderators they have had. Notes will have no affect on Citizenship status.

    Infractions
    Infractions are given when a member commits an offense of a type for which they have already received a Note, or if the offense was deemed sufficiently great that Moderation do not consider a Note to be appropriate. Infractions expire after three months and contribute toward a member's Infraction Level. The number of points given for a particular offense is down to Moderation's Discretion. The possible values are given next to each offense type listed in the Member Conduct section.

    Infraction Levels


    Infraction Levels lead to penalties as follows:




    Penalties last until the Infraction Level is reduced below the specified number of points unless otherwise specified. Release from probation is at Moderation's discretion.


    In addition, I propose that moderation of the Curia and Prothalamus be turned over to the Moderation branch. This would involved removing those powers from the Consul.

    The tribunal system and appeals would then be the route for dealing with the accumulated points.

    The Ostrakon system would remain in place. That section is a mess however and needs to be restructured. This will require altering text in the Constitution.

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  3. #23

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    The so-called old "higher standard" was quite nebulous. The old process often let citizens off the hook and the referral system itself demonstrated the lack of higher standard by its abuse. A higher standard of behavior through adherence to the rules or else seems to be what is needed. Introducing a system that allows citizens a "gray area" in which to demonstrate behavior that is less than exemplary is a step backwards.

    Is there a reason this is being proposed? (rhetorical)

    Opposed

  4. #24

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    The proposal in the opening post seems rather too lenient on Citizenship. 3 points is high enough to consider that no Citizenship should be left to roam freely at that point. However, I also wouldn't say that infractions are a good way to measure this anymore. I would wanna look at the number of moderated posts from a member.
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #25
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Old gods die hard
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The so-called old "higher standard" was quite nebulous. The old process often let citizens off the hook and the referral system itself demonstrated the lack of higher standard by its abuse. A higher standard of behavior through adherence to the rules or else seems to be what is needed. Introducing a system that allows citizens a "gray area" in which to demonstrate behavior that is less than exemplary is a step backwards.

    Is there a reason this is being proposed? (rhetorical)

    Opposed
    Also in response to POVG - I realize that the point system as it stands now probably needs to be adjusted. It was my intent to present it as a starting point looking at all of the different aspects of "punishment" and citizen behavior. For instance, on one extreme their is loss of rank, while on the other loss of posting privileges. Oddly enough, a Citizen can lose posting privileges in the Curia/Prothalamus for an infraction...while a non-citizen with a list of infractions and arm's length long can still post material in the Prothalamus. Perhaps there should be an addition of a "Censure" option for all board members who have moderation infractions/interactions which would prohibit them from interacting in these forums.

    POVG's idea about moderation interactions is interesting, however, there is the issue of the "private" records here. How can this be reconciled?

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  6. #26

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Rush View Post
    Also in response to POVG - I realize that the point system as it stands now probably needs to be adjusted. It was my intent to present it as a starting point looking at all of the different aspects of "punishment" and citizen behavior. For instance, on one extreme their is loss of rank, while on the other loss of posting privileges. Oddly enough, a Citizen can lose posting privileges in the Curia/Prothalamus for an infraction...while a non-citizen with a list of infractions and arm's length long can still post material in the Prothalamus. Perhaps there should be an addition of a "Censure" option for all board members who have moderation infractions/interactions which would prohibit them from interacting in these forums.

    POVG's idea about moderation interactions is interesting, however, there is the issue of the "private" records here. How can this be reconciled?
    Perhaps I'm jumping onto the extreme too fast. I give you that. The concern I had was that moderation could be more lenient on some people. While they may refrain from issuing an infraction they will still edit the post. So, that gives a better indication of record. How many posts were moderated in the last 3 months? How many for insulting? How many for off-topic? How many posts were deleted all together?

    Yes, these are private moderation records, but so are the infractions. When someone's Citizenship is challenged how could you make an informed decision if you don't know the trail that person is leaving for only moderation to see. We only see the the Tribunal cases.
    The Armenian Issue

  7. #27

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Rush View Post
    Also in response to POVG - I realize that the point system as it stands now probably needs to be adjusted. It was my intent to present it as a starting point looking at all of the different aspects of "punishment" and citizen behavior. For instance, on one extreme their is loss of rank, while on the other loss of posting privileges. Oddly enough, a Citizen can lose posting privileges in the Curia/Prothalamus for an infraction...while a non-citizen with a list of infractions and arm's length long can still post material in the Prothalamus. Perhaps there should be an addition of a "Censure" option for all board members who have moderation infractions/interactions which would prohibit them from interacting in these forums.

    POVG's idea about moderation interactions is interesting, however, there is the issue of the "private" records here. How can this be reconciled?
    The current system is consistent with applications with citizenship. If you are infracted within a 6 months period, you cannot applied. If you get infracted as a citizen, then you lose it for a time. It is nice wake up call. If you get too many, then maybe we were in error in granting it. I would like to think that any citizen would be able to avoid getting infracted.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The current system is consistent with applications with citizenship. If you are infracted within a 6 months period, you cannot applied. If you get infracted as a citizen, then you lose it for a time. It is nice wake up call. If you get too many, then maybe we were in error in granting it. I would like to think that any citizen would be able to avoid getting infracted.
    How many infractions can a Citizen have within what period of time before they become not Citizen worthy?
    The Armenian Issue

  9. #29

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    That is a million dollar question. In citizenship application infraction history beyond 6 months have been cited as reasons to reject. It is a question for each citizen to decide. Of course, this is what Ostrakon is for.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The current system adds "unnecessary layers" of mandatory intolerance. In my view, the Curia should not be interfering with disciplinary measures, but if it must, I'd much rather it did so in the manner suggested by Nicholas Rush.
    Agreed, especially since even a warning/note may be permanent. I still have one from a few months ago and one from 7 years ago, so presumably I would need to resign. It seems by restricting people with both notes and infractions from holding office, an arbitrary standard is created that would probably reduce the pool of eligibility to some point below the number of people actually running for office.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    It is not clear to me, what you are actually discussing. Running for offices requires certain amounts of time during which no infractions were incurred. Any active infraction automatically removes from offices and suspends citizenship. It's really that simple.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    It is not clear to me, what you are actually discussing. Running for offices requires certain amounts of time during which no infractions were incurred. Any active infraction automatically removes from offices and suspends citizenship. It's really that simple.
    I could be off base but it seemed like between discussion of the OP being too lenient, a reference to notes (not just infractions) as a time bound disqualification from Curial office, and the proposed language change in the thread on that topic, the implication is moderation warnings/notes would be part of the tiered penal system that includes being barred from office altogether.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  13. #33

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    That is a million dollar question. In citizenship application infraction history beyond 6 months have been cited as reasons to reject. It is a question for each citizen to decide. Of course, this is what Ostrakon is for.
    Whats your answer then?
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #34

    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Whats your answer then?
    I do not have an exact answer. Must of my thoughts is based on the old system which is different in nature and execution. Instinctively it would be based on the nature of the infractions relative to the pattern of such behavior. In the past I have open discussion on a similar topic. Ultimately, the discussion has always boiled down to each citizen must determine their own "rubric." Given this is a "new" system (I mean from yesterday new), I do not have a clear answer for you... sorry.

    On a side thought, it would be nice for an Ostrakon to have a lesser vote like a Censure. I would suggest maybe a short suspension, but I fear we would just invite abuse like in the previous referral system. So, public admonishment would be the limit.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    It is not clear to me, what you are actually discussing. Running for offices requires certain amounts of time during which no infractions were incurred. Any active infraction automatically removes from offices and suspends citizenship. It's really that simple.
    ^^ This.
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  16. #36
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    It is not clear to me, what you are actually discussing. Running for offices requires certain amounts of time during which no infractions were incurred. Any active infraction automatically removes from offices and suspends citizenship. It's really that simple.
    this
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    ^^ Copycat, Flinn
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    It is not clear to me, what you are actually discussing. Running for offices requires certain amounts of time during which no infractions were incurred. Any active infraction automatically removes from offices and suspends citizenship. It's really that simple.
    This.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    The easiest solution would simply be to automatically suspend citizenship (thus also all offices, running for offices, posting in the Curia) while any infractions are active.

    EDIT: Bugger me, that system is already in place (has been some time since I last checked the good old Constitution.) So, we already live in the best of all possible worlds, no need to change the system.
    This.

    This.

    This.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Citizenship and Infraction Levels - A Proposed Approach as a Replacement for the Ambiguous "Standards of Behavior"

    The thisness is strong with this thread. Aristotle would be proud of us. Yoda, too.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

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