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Thread: HUNGARY

  1. #21
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Let's wait for the evening - and you could have the second thoughts. I always allow myself for having a second or a third look at the texts. Then it'll be Kilo11, our literary director, who would check it ;-)

    What about important historical events for Hungary? I've added one and I'm using it in the code, but maybe you'd come up with something different? (that would be relatively un-related to the game itself, eg. nothing related to the Mongols, but may be related to religious/social/legal developments.

    {GOLDEN_BULL_HUNGARIAN_BODY}\n\nAndrew II, King of Hungary, issued in 1222 a Golden Bull. The charter summarized the liberties of the royal servants, including their exemption from taxes and the jurisdiction of the ispáns. The last clause of the Golden Bull authorized "the bishops as well as the other barons and nobles of the realm, singularly and in common" to resist the monarch if he did not honor the provisions of the charter. The Golden Bull clearly distinguished the royal servants from the king's other subjects, which led to the rise of the Hungarian nobility
    {GOLDEN_BULL_HUNGARIAN_TITLE}András II. Golden Bull

  2. #22
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Following Bela 3rd example of high culture introduced in the East, a Hungarian king married to a French princess could make the Jousting Field available for Hungary. Or maybe the upper level (Tourney).

  3. #23

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    shouldn't Zara be under Hungarian control in 1132? Bela the Blind was king of Hungary and Croatia. Zara at that time was under Hungarian control if i'm not wrong

  4. #24
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser29 View Post
    shouldn't Zara be under Hungarian control in 1132? Bela the Blind was king of Hungary and Croatia. Zara at that time was under Hungarian control if i'm not wrong
    This may well be true, I'm not sure if it should be presented as such in the game (what degree of the real indepence it really had?). I'll get back to the Hungarian and Venetian history at some point and will study this issue.
    From the gameplay perspective, independent Zara is ok at the beginning (it enable Venice invasions that actually happened in history).

  5. #25

    Default Re: HUNGARY

    the independence of Croatia during the Hungarian kings' rule is still nowadays highly debatable, and from what i've read around even historians are not 100% sure. Venice invaded Zara multiple times during the years and the Hungarians didn't always intervene. but at the same time, Croatia didn't have a ruler apart from the King of Hungary

    the thing is: if Zara is let as an independent region, i think also Zagreb should be (which is currently under the Hungarian control)
    Last edited by kaiser29; November 24, 2020 at 03:57 AM.

  6. #26
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    In terms of Med2/SSHIP we should not make the first task of a Hungarian player to conquer Zagreb - it was already part of the kingdom, even if with weak control. I understand you think that the statuses of both provinces were the same, while I want to delve into the books to find it confirm it. At first glance it seems so.

  7. #27

    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Hungary is a very interesting nation to play as. If you think Catholics have it easy, first off, you are actually thinking of Latins, and second, Hungary will change your mind.

    Strategically, they are a quite interesting faction for two reasons: firstly, you have all your ancestral homelands (in that case, Panonia, rather than... wherever Magyars came from) from the get go, 5 whole provinces, which is not small realm. Furthermore, said provinces have an interesting combination of features: they are very wealthy, and very under-developed. Nearly every single of them have gold or silver, and you do get some mines from the get go, which can make for a stupendous income boost. However, all of these provinces are on very low level of development, and have low population, so they will take some time to get where you need them to. That makes for turtling a rather appealing strategy. And sadly, gold and silver can't be used to make weapons and armor, a subject I will touch up later.

    And the second reason is, they are surrounded by 6 factions. The Holy Roman Empire, Poland, Venice, Serbia, the Unholy Greek Tyranny, and the Quipchags. And they all are looking forwards taking these resource rich lands. The more pressing neighbor is Poland, of course, as you already start at war with them, and their capital is VERY close to you. For them, you can either crush their standing army by gathering your forces, won't be too difficult, specially if you use well your horse archers, and go for an early conquest spree. But that carries its diplomatic implications of tanking your Reputation, and the risk of getting your ass kicked by the pope. My preferred method is to disband most of my forces (minus the horse archers, you can keep either the nobles or the riders, up to taste), quickly gather a sum of around 8000 gold (quite quickly, and won't even have to stall my development), and buy peace and alliance with them. Said alliance won't last without the occasional bribe and show of force when their army decides to do some "field exercises" right outside your capital, but waging war on a fellow catholic can get out of hand VERY quick.

    After solving the issue with the Poles, temporarily or permanently, your most aggressive neighbors will be the Byzantines and the Cumans. Both can also be brought with alliances and the ocasional stern stare by your standing army when they decide frontiers are social constructs, but will overall be much less of a headache than your immediately norther neighbors. That said, keep in mind, all of them, all of the 6, can invade you when you least expect it, so get that one diplomat of yours working overtime and that standing defense army going.

    Finally, the units. Not much to say, except they are completely different from the Latins. City militia is mostly the same, except they don't get Crossbow Militia, but rather, Crossbow Levies (so more useful on the field, they offer a better soft performance for their cost than the militia version), and slavic javelinman that can work as a decent, quickly replenishing light infantry. Don't underestimate javelins, I had half a bodyguard unit slaughtered by getting shot by these guys, AFTER charging and killing a good deal of them. They are barely better than spear militia fighting infantry, but at least offer a decent bang for your buck overall and can be a candidate for your standing army core unit. Think only the capital provides them though, but as said, with good replenishment, and you can fill up with mercenary recruitment, will be the exact same unit, although cheaper, and with experience. Mercenaries with conventional recruitment are on a weird spot right now.

    Castles, which would usually provide you with your nice cost-effective feudal levy or even early professionals to make your standing army, won't do. For infantry, you get Valach Axemen. They are essentially tribal axemen, somewhat akin to Lithuanians, but... with a pricey upkeep for what they provide you with. Regardless, their offensive stats are just decent enough to assault walls and overpower archers and spearmen, so they have their uses. Then, the Pavise Spearmen. Think something like Serjeants, but coming a bit early. Their replenishment starts at 8 on their pool of 1 though, so don't expect to field large numbers of these until you get a Fortress. Finally, from Fortress Onwards, you get the Light Swordsmen. They are kinda like the Light Serjeants, but a bit... worse. Cheaper though, and will for sure beat the axemen for the spot of assault infantry.

    The cavalry though, is interesting. Firstly, at the very start... you don't have a national recruitment. Build a stable outside Tartar regions, it will give you nothing. But the ones that do, will give you nice numbers of Magyar Riders, light cavalry archers that are pretty good shoots, and can do a decent job at melee, specially after their one armor upgrade. Thankfully, you do have your knights, or something close of it, the Magyar Nobles. Not that armored, not packing a devastating charge, but are even better horse archers, fairly survivable thanks to their improved armor and shield, and after running out of arrows, can even work as some medium cavalry. These are the ones you will get from your Small Councils.

    Foot archers, don't have much to say. Castles will provide you with Village Archers, levy that can be raised in 1 turn and is cheap but not good for much other than shooting, and barely good at it, and then Vallach Archers, that may look like they have the exact same stats, but their hidden stats may indicate they are slightly better. If worth the increased upkeep though, up to you.

    So this is your army, and as you may have noticed, it is not great. Other than your cavalry, you are on a pretty gnarly spot. With Latins, I could make standing armies of Spearmen (with upgraded armor) supported by Archers and some Levy Archers to do most of the killing, alongside Mounted Serjeants or maybe even Knights for the killing blow. You really don't get anything to form an effective line here, be either short of numbers, or defensive stats, and if you are not the kind that likes crossbows, you will probably want to stick to the mounted archers. By using skirmishing, I managed to get some quite impressive victories, targeting commanders and knights with my Nobles while making surgical strikes on their light infantry with the Bodyguard. Keep in mind though, in this mod, cavalry is TERRIBLY weak against archer fire, only shoot if the enemy can't shoot at all. Otherwise, charge and let these quite decent melee horse archers win their pay.

  8. #28
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    The more pressing neighbor is Poland, of course, as you already start at war with them, and their capital is VERY close to you. For them, you can either crush their standing army by gathering your forces, won't be too difficult, specially if you use well your horse archers, and go for an early conquest spree. But that carries its diplomatic implications of tanking your Reputation, and the risk of getting your ass kicked by the pope. My preferred method is to disband most of my forces (minus the horse archers, you can keep either the nobles or the riders, up to taste), quickly gather a sum of around 8000 gold (quite quickly, and won't even have to stall my development), and buy peace and alliance with them. Said alliance won't last without the occasional bribe and show of force when their army decides to do some "field exercises" right outside your capital, but waging war on a fellow catholic can get out of hand VERY quick.
    You can also wait with your army and beat the invading forces. After such a beating (or may be two), they'll sign the peace.

  9. #29
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Hello guys, Jurand asked me for a valid Hungary tree, so I dropped by. (like Bettlejuice )

    Family tree (italics are already dead!):

    Géza I (king)
    __Kálmán I (king, son of Géza I)
    ____István II (king, son of Kálmán, no male descendant)
    ____Zsófia (daughter of Kálmán)
    ______Saul (son of Zsófia, designated heir of István II)

    ____Borisz (bastard of Kálmán, pretender) <- current rebel, attacked Hungary on three different occasions


    __Álmos (pretender, son of Géza I, blinded for rebelliousness)
    ____Béla II, the blind (became king, blinded as a kid) <- current monarch



    Problems:

    1: Remove Borisz from the family tree totally.
    explanation: he was never considered a real candidate for the throne, as he was a not legitimized bastard. If you want to keep him, you can make him the leader of a strong rebel stack looting Hungary.

    2: the Heir:
    The problem is, that in 1132, Béla didn't have a grown up heir yet. His oldest son, the future Géza II is only 1 (one) year old.
    I would suggest to add Saul: we don't know anything about him, he disappeared from history books. We only know that at a point, he was the designated heir of István II. So, he could be heir, older than the king, and completely barren, so that he doesn't produce offspring. This way Géza II could rule after Béla.




    Proposals:




    King

    Current Béla
    character Bela Arpadhazi, named character, male, leader, battle_model king_general, age 22, x 215, y 192
    traits Factionleader 3 , LoyaltyStarter 1 , ReligionStarter 1 , MilitaryInclination 1 , NaturalMilitarySkill 2 , Intelligent 8 , Handsome 7, LogisticalSkill 1 , HaveChilds 1 , Western_Edu 1 , HarshRuler 1 , PublicFaith 1 , Royal_Blood_Hungarian 1 , KingsAuthority 2
    ancillaries biographer
    Proposed Béla:
    - change name to "Béla the blind"
    - remove military skill (he was blinded as a kid)
    - remove harshruler (he was kind of a family man)
    - add wife is noble (adding security to a blind king seems ok. It is actually what she was doing IRL)
    - add fertility or wife is fertile, or both (they had 6 children)

    character Béla the blind, named character, male, leader, battle_model king_general, age 22, x 215, y 192
    traits Factionleader 3 , LoyaltyStarter 1 , ReligionStarter 1 , Intelligent 8 , Handsome 7, LogisticalSkill 1 , HaveChilds 1 , Western_Edu 1 , PublicFaith 1 , Royal_Blood_Hungarian 1 , KingsAuthority 2, WifeIsFertile 3, WifeIsNoble 3,
    ancillaries biographer




    Important right hand man

    Add character (or change one random general).
    Belos (or Belus) Vukanovic
    He was the brother of the queen (Jelena). He was the right hand man and main general of Béla during all his ruling years. He and the queen were quite... harsh! They organized the so called massacre at Arad, where they invited all the nobles who had a role in the blinding of the monarch, and slayed all of them.

    Proposal:
    - stoic 2 (he must be bribe-immune. Has was the brother of the queen)
    - assassinmaster 2 (he did organize some showdowns, and was not a "nice fellow", but rather a right hand man)
    - fear of Serbia. (not actually fear. But he was serbian and the serbian zhupan was his relative. So -morale against Serbia would be nice)
    - anger 1 or bloodthirsty 1 (this guy should be dread based)

    character Belus Vukanovic, named character, male, age 24, x 193, y 177
    traits LoyaltyStarter 1 , GovernorInclination 1 , GoodAdministrator 1 , ReligionStarter 1 , Intelligent 6 , Handsome 7, stoic 2, assassinmaster 2, fearofserbia 2 (if this exists?), anger 1 or bloodthirsty 1




    Add dummy heir instead of Borisz (or change Borisz to this guy)
    If you add the dummy heir, Saul, this would work:
    character Saul Arpadhazi, named character, male, heir, battle_model heir_general, age 48, x 219, y 194
    traits Usurper 2 , LoyaltyStarter 1 , ReligionStarter 1 , MilitaryInclination 1 , Intelligent 6 , Handsome 6, Western_Edu 1 , Royal_Blood_Hungarian 1 , BastardHeir 1,
    wifeisbarren 3, ugly 3

    wife is barren and ugly should make it sure that the dummy heir doesn't actually produce a ruling dynasty by accident



    other
    Queen: Jelena Vukanovic (or Ilona, if you want to use her hungarian name)

    Underage heir: Géza II Árpádházi (1 y/o, parents: Béla the blind and Jelena Vukanovic)
    Last edited by shikaka; January 21, 2021 at 03:07 PM.

  10. #30
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser29 View Post
    the independence of Croatia during the Hungarian kings' rule is still nowadays highly debatable, and from what i've read around even historians are not 100% sure. Venice invaded Zara multiple times during the years and the Hungarians didn't always intervene. but at the same time, Croatia didn't have a ruler apart from the King of Hungary

    the thing is: if Zara is let as an independent region, i think also Zagreb should be (which is currently under the Hungarian control)


    Zara is a bit special in history, it always had some kind special status. To be honest it usually went like:
    - if Zara was thinking that Venetian tariffs are a bit too much, they allowed Hungary to "invade", but usually with not much violence
    - if Zara was thinking that Hungary is a bit too demanding, "somehow Venice managed to take the city"
    They pretty much played this game until the city was looted by the fourth crusade.

    In this regard Zara is a bit different than the rest of Croatia.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Thank you Shikaka, I will try to be as close to your description as possible. Hungary will be my next task!

  12. #32
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Hi Macaras,
    some thought on Hungary:
    * the faction does have has many provinces so quite a few characters can be present at the beginning - I'd say even 8 in the family tree would be ok, including children. Of course, the player would not get any new birth for some time - until the old die out.
    * in this respect Saul is ok (is there such Hungarian name?), Mr Vukanovic as well.
    * Borisz as a usurper sounds very good, for the sake of the gameplay don't remove him from the family tree. The SSHIP usurpation mechanisms will be crafted exactly to provide this obstacle to the player. In all bigger factions we'll have usurpers, for the moment there're in England and France, but here (and in Poland) I'd really like to see such people.
    * the Blind - this could come from a trait, and this is something I should pick up while crafting traits. Actually, health conditions is one are I had planned to analyse more, so it's a good idea to connect it (but not limit to) with Senile


    @shikaka: an important issue: what do you think about the SSHIP system of using the term "nembol" for each name? Should it be the part of the official name or should we scratch it?

    cheers
    JoC

  13. #33
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    in this respect Saul is ok (is there such Hungarian name?)

    In a certain period, some royal family members got names from the Bible, of jewish origin. Late 11th, early 12th century.
    Salamon (also became king), Dávid, Saul, etc.


    There are quite a few names in use in the period, what modern hungarians would not recognize as magyar. A few examples which exist in documents: Andronicus, Arnold, Batiz, Bene (short Benedictus), Csepán, Deme, Fabian (Fabianus), Gregor, Gothard, Horvát, Joahim, Katapan (sounds greek to me), Simeon, Ugrin (which means hungarian in slavic languages I think), Vid, Bánk (I think either Benedictus or croatian Benko)


    As you see, at the same time pre-christian names, christianized hungarian names, biblical/martyr names, and imported names from all around were used.




    the Blind - this could come from a trait, and this is something I should pick up while crafting traits. Actually, health conditions is one are I had planned to analyse more, so it's a good idea to connect it (but not limit to) with Senile

    He was not particularly in bad health. Had six children, but obviously he was useless as a commander. That's why he employed Belus. Also his spouse was mostly a co-ruler, not really trophy-wife.




    @shikaka: an important issue: what do you think about the SSHIP system of using the term "nembol" for each name? Should it be the part of the official name or should we scratch it?

    I think by the 12th century these are OK.
    It is also understandable for a hungarian, even though we would say "nembeli" instead.
    "nembeli" or "nemből" means "from clan XY" or "from family XY". At this point of history it usually refers to clans.


    The usual hungarian format is "Zách nembeli Felicián", but "Felicián a Zách nemből" is a good compromise with english naming order.




    Some noble clans from the Árpád-era for you:
    Aba, Adorján, Ajka, Ákus (or Ákos), Balog, Borkalán, Becse, Bucska, Bús, Csabi, Csák, Csanád, Csolt, Dobra, Dorozsma, Elek, Érd, Gatal, Gúg, Gutkeled, Győr, Hahót, Héder, Hunt-Pázmány (or Hontpázmány), Ják, Jenő, Kán, Kaplony, Káta, Kürt, Lád, Megyes, Miskolc-Bés, Nádasd, Osl, Örsúr, Péc, Pok, Rátót, Salamon, Smaragd, Szalók, Tét, Tomaj, Vojk, Zách, Zsadány

  14. #34
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    @shikaka,
    it's what we've got for Hungary. Mind that it should pass for 12-16 centuries, not noly 12.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    faction: hungary

    characters
    Geza
    Almos
    Akus
    Almus
    Ampod
    Andras
    Apor
    Arpad
    Bank
    Bela
    Belos
    Benedek
    Bese
    Betlehem
    Bod
    Bogat
    Bojta
    Bokony
    Borisz
    Bors
    Bot
    Bokeny
    Bulcsu
    Demeter
    Denes
    Des
    Donat
    Elias
    Elek
    Endre
    Fabian
    Farkas
    Fancsal
    Felician
    Fulop
    Gyeicsa
    Gyorgy
    Gyula
    Gyurk
    Henrik
    Heteny
    Hollus
    Imre
    Istvan
    Iva#n
    Janos
    Kalman
    Kaplony
    Karad
    Kartal
    Katapan
    Kerecse
    Kolpeny
    Kuppany
    Kozma
    Ladomer
    Lambert
    Laszlo
    Levente
    Lukacs
    Mako
    Mate
    Matyas
    Mihaly
    Mikan
    Mike
    Miklos
    Mog
    Nehemias
    Opos
    Otmar
    Pal
    Pe#ter
    Petur
    Pozsony
    Salamon
    Samson
    Sandor
    Saul
    Simon
    Smaragd
    Stephen
    Tamas
    Tiburc
    Turda
    Ugrin
    Uros
    Vajk
    Vata
    Vid
    Zotmund


    surnames
    Arpadhazi
    az_Aba_nembol
    az_Akus_nembol
    az_Oguz_nembol
    a_Babonic_nembol
    a_Balug_nembol
    a_Bogatradvany_nembol
    a_Bor_nembol
    a_Borsa_nembol
    a_Buzad_nembol
    a_Csak_nembol
    a_Geregye_nembol
    a_Gutkeled_nembol
    a_Gyor_nembol
    a_Hahold_nembol
    a_Heidrih_nembol
    a_Huntpaznan_nembol
    a_Jak_nembol
    a_Kacsics_nembol
    a_Kan_nembol
    az_Osl_nembol
    a_Pec_nembol
    a_Pok_nembol
    a_Ratolt_nembol
    a_Subic_nembol
    a_Szak_nembol
    a_Szentemagucs_nembol
    a_Tomaj_nembol
    a_Turje_nembol
    a_Zah_nembol
    Frangepan
    ;;bynames
    az_Opor_nembol
    a_Bancsa_nembol
    a_Herman_nembol
    a_Monoszlo_nembol

  15. #35

    Default Re: Family Trees

    I made the changes for the Hungarian Tree, its available for download in the first post..
    There are two problems (that I know of at least ):

    1. "The Blind" will have to be made using traits, right now I just gave Bela the last name Arpadhazi,
    2. Saul - the heir without children was born in 1115 historically which makes him 17 in 1132, not 48 as Shikaka proposed. I added him few years - he is now 21. He cannot be older because his mother is 34 (in this case she was 13 when pregnant). However, the engine accepts the son older than his mother so technically I could make him 48 and just hope nobody will notice. What are your suggestions considering the gameplay - usurper etc.? If he were 21 he would live long, unless dies in battle (that's why I also made him hypochondriac: -3 hit points). Should I keep 21 or make him much older ?

  16. #36
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Quote Originally Posted by Macaras View Post
    I made the changes for the Hungarian Tree, its available for download in the first post..
    There are two problems (that I know of at least ):

    1. "The Blind" will have to be made using traits, right now I just gave Bela the last name Arpadhazi,
    2. Saul - the heir without children was born in 1115 historically which makes him 17 in 1132, not 48 as Shikaka proposed. I added him few years - he is now 21. He cannot be older because his mother is 34 (in this case she was 13 when pregnant). However, the engine accepts the son older than his mother so technically I could make him 48 and just hope nobody will notice. What are your suggestions considering the gameplay - usurper etc.? If he were 21 he would live long, unless dies in battle (that's why I also made him hypochondriac: -3 hit points). Should I keep 21 or make him much older ?
    ad 1. - very good.
    ad 2. - @Shikaka, so was he 48 or 17 ? Or these were different guys?

  17. #37
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    @shikaka,
    it's what we've got for Hungary. Mind that it should pass for 12-16 centuries, not noly 12.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    faction: hungary

    characters
    Geza
    Almos
    Akus
    Almus - delete (duplicate of Almos)
    Ampod
    Andras
    Apor
    Arpad
    Bank
    Bela
    Belos
    Benedek
    Bese
    Betlehem
    Bod
    Bogat
    Bojta
    Bokony
    Borisz
    Bors
    Bot
    Bokeny
    Bulcsu
    Demeter
    Denes
    Des
    Donat
    Elias
    Elek
    Endre
    Fabian
    Farkas
    Fancsal
    Felician
    Fulop
    Gyeicsa
    Gyorgy
    Gyula
    Gyurk
    Henrik
    Heteny
    Hollus
    Imre
    Istvan
    Iva#n - I guess this is ivÁn, so you can just use Ivan without hungarian Á
    Janos
    Kalman
    Kaplony
    Karad
    Kartal
    Katapan
    Kerecse
    Kolpeny
    Kuppany - delete (too late for this)
    Kozma
    Ladomer
    Lambert
    Laszlo
    Levente
    Lukacs
    Mako
    Mate
    Matyas
    Mihaly
    Mikan
    Mike
    Miklos
    Mog
    Nehemias
    Opos
    Otmar
    Pal
    Pe#ter - use Peter or Petur if hungarian É is not workable
    Petur
    Pozsony -a bit too late for this (10th century name)
    Salamon
    Samson
    Sandor
    Saul
    Simon
    Smaragd
    Stephen - delete? hungarian form is IstvĂĄn, which is already in
    Tamas
    Tiburc
    Turda
    Ugrin
    Uros
    Vajk
    Vata
    Vid
    Zotmund

    since I propose to delete three, it is fair to offer five in exchange: Attila, Csaba, KarĂĄcson (Karacson)



    surnames
    Arpadhazi
    az_Aba_nembol
    az_Akus_nembol
    az_Oguz_nembol
    a_Babonic_nembol
    a_Balug_nembol
    a_Bogatradvany_nembol
    a_Bor_nembol
    a_Borsa_nembol
    a_Buzad_nembol
    a_Csak_nembol
    a_Geregye_nembol
    a_Gutkeled_nembol
    a_Gyor_nembol
    a_Hahold_nembol
    a_Heidrih_nembol - I am quite sure this is supposed to be HĂŠder (Heder)
    a_Huntpaznan_nembol
    a_Jak_nembol
    a_Kacsics_nembol - originally croatian clan, I think the croat form is Kacic with a funky croatian c (pronounced like english "ch")
    a_Kan_nembol
    az_Osl_nembol
    a_Pec_nembol
    a_Pok_nembol
    a_Ratolt_nembol
    a_Subic_nembol
    a_Szak_nembol
    a_Szentemagucs_nembol - correct is SzentemagĂłcs (Szentemagocs)
    a_Tomaj_nembol
    a_Turje_nembol
    a_Zah_nembol - basically not incorrect, however this clan is mostly known in an other format: ZĂĄch
    Frangepan - they are not a hungarian clan, but a croatian noble family. I think (!) in croatian they are called Frankopan or Frankapan.
    ;;bynames
    az_Opor_nembol
    a_Bancsa_nembol
    a_Herman_nembol
    a_Monoszlo_nembol

    proposed changes in bold!


    About validity for 4 centuries: this is nearly impossible to do. Clan names became fashionable in the 12-13th century.
    About in the 15th century, families (not clans!) started using their main holdings as names. This was mostly an issue for successful clans with many branches.

    Example: Guthkeled clan was quite numerous and successful. One of the families was situated in Nyírbátor. This certain family later became known as the Báthory/Bátori family, and their connections with other Guthkeled branches became less important time. Also, they had two branches themselves (Báthori and Báthory)

    The problem is that this happened to many families, and mostly during the timeframe of the game.
    Last edited by shikaka; January 25, 2021 at 10:43 AM.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Thanks Shikaka!

  19. #39
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Yeah, but what about getting rid of the "nembol" altogether? It looks really bad when in any name there's the same description. I'm much more in favour, to be frank...

  20. #40
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Yeah, but what about getting rid of the "nembol" altogether? It looks really bad when in any name there's the same description. I'm much more in favour, to be frank...
    To be honest it is not a big deal.
    1: it is only correct for game start +100 years anyway. And mostly out of fashion from the mid-late 14th century.
    2: I think the big majority of hungarians are not aware that clan names are not the same as family names anyway, not to mention not hungarians.

    Alternatively, you could use 14-15th century family names (not clan names), which don't have "nembeli" at all. As you see, most of the family names refer to their main holdings: in hungarian adding a +i or +y to the end means "from" or "of". At the same time they do not refer to their clan at all. An example is the Losonci family, who in theory should be called Losonci family of the Tomaj clan, but the latter is not important anymore.

    14th century family names are like: Meggyesi, Debreceni, Szécsényi, Lackfi, Losonci, Bebek, Csáky, Lévai, Kusalyi, Újlaki, Kanizsai, Rozgonyi, Báthori, Drágffy, Balassa, Czudar, Garai
    also, croatians unchanged: Babonic, Subic, Frangepán, etc.
    This would be incorrect at game start, but correct later.
    Last edited by shikaka; January 26, 2021 at 05:04 AM.

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