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Thread: Family Trees - submod for v. 097

  1. #1

    Default Family Trees - submod for v. 097

    Here is a new version of my mini mod that fixes separate family trees.. its a version 1.29 from 29th of January 2021.

    Changelog:


    -Fixed the Cumans, Novgorod, Hungarian, Jerusalem, Spanish, Aragonese, French, Venetian and German separated family trees (sometimes just small modification - like one fictional marriage for Aragon). There is no more factions with separated/hidden family trees!

    -Changed English family tree according to the idea: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15976433

    -Norway, Denmark, Jerusalem, Scotland, Aragon - additional good health traits and armor or shield ancillaries to prevent the family members from dying too early, Cumans - added one family member more so that the faction will be more difficult to destroy,

    -Novgorod, Venice and Pisa will be more developed in future due to their more complicated republic type governments, for now just fixed the separated trees,

    -French names more historical according to the list: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?808741-Family-Trees&p=15987763&viewfull=1#post15987763

    -Hungarian family tree is changed according to the description: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15986748 (also removed "Nembol")

    -I changed a little bit the location of generals(so the Habsburg is in Austria) + lowered a little the authority of the current German emperor and of course changed the names of the family members,

    - the princesses and the female characters in the family trees of all the factions- who are alive- are all 35 or younger.



    The files work with 0.97 patch G and KCC 0.95.

    To install:
    1. download the file in the attachment,
    2. unpack the data.zip and copy everything inside the data folder,
    3. remember to delete the name.txt.strings.bin file that is in ...\mods\ss6.3\data\text folder and then restart the game!

    If somebody would like to test this minimod please share your observations..Thanks in advance !!!
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 30, 2021 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Hi Macaras,
    really appreciated you're taking on this subject :-)

    ad. 1 - I think yes, there're purposes. I think it provides for a challenge for the player. However, I don't know ins-and-outs, as the previous moders didn't documented their goals much.
    ad. 2 - I don't know any better. Mind that if you add by-name to the list, it may also appear in the future for another character.
    ad. 3 - I'll do it once I've got some time for coding - this year, for sure ;-)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Regarding the first point, I advocate for an EB2-like system, in which all breedable generals are related to the main family by fictional marriages. HRE is a goddamn nightmare as of right now, and being able to see how screwed you are and to be able to work up the most likely heir of an usurper would be great.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Family Trees

    I also think that's the best way - fictional marriages, I did it with Venice. I will try to tackle the family tree of HRE as the next task. I am not sure though how/if adding generals to one family tree will change the usurpers situations. Anyway if I am not mistaken, as it is right now, they are already part of the family, but their part of the tree is just not visible for the player (?) So maybe I will put all the generals together in one family tree using fictional marriages, and keeping their loyalty and traits - keeping the same number of actively disloyal, usurpers etc. In this way the balance will be kept, especially for the big factions.
    By the way- I saw that at least the Byzantines are all set - no separated invisible family trees.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Family Trees

    It is so nice that you're tackling this aspect of the game!
    Fictional marriages sounds like a very good solution, it is clear that having only part of the family tree was pretty strange, at least for me.
    Belovèse's Toolbox: export text files to spreadsheet, detailed unit stats
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project (SSHIP) team member.
    Mini-mods: diplomacy and relation/reputation - detailled unit stats

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    @Macaras, the problem with your approach is that if you add by-name to the list, it may also appear in the future for another character.
    If the game would choose as first name Hogov plus a family name you can have in-game another character Hugo de Vermandois de Anjou

    {Hugov}Hugo de Vermandois
    {Raoulv}Raoul de Vermandois

    I also have some doubts about Louis VI Capet - I'm not sure you can have it coded in 3 words.

    relative Henri Capet, Anne Yaroslavna, Philip Capet, Hugov Capet, Emma, end
    relative Philip Capet, Bertrada de_Montfort, Constance Capet, Louis Capet, Anne Capet, end
    relative Hugov Capet, Adelaide de_Vermandois, Mathilde, Raoulv, Agnes, end
    relative Louis Capet, Adele de_Savoie, Louis VI Capet, Robert, Pierre, Constance, end
    relative Raoulv Capet, Eleanor de_Blois, end

  7. #7

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Jurand, I see your point, you are right. It seems that the best way is indeed the fictional marriages. If they did it in EB2 it is most probably the best solution, since they put a lot of effort+experience in their work..
    Regarding Luis VI Capet I saw something similar in names.txt, somebody did it before, so I was trying to check if it works. I will try to figure it out. There are also entries like this:

    {Lucius_II}Lucius II
    {Lucius_III}Lucius III
    or
    {Paulus_II}Paulus II
    {Paulus_III}Paulus III

    in the names.txt. The purpose was to have for example two Louises in one family tree. Adding the _VI seemed to me a possible solution to this problem, but I have to check it better..

  8. #8
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    I'd like to learn why the SSHIP (and maybe already SS) have introduced the second family tree . They must have had a purpose we are not aware of. So I'd like to find argument in favour of having two trees and they weigh them before deciding.

    Concerning numbering of the popes (I believe all the examples are the popes) it's a leftover from vanilla or an old stage of the SS mod in the names.txt - have a look, they don't appear in the descr_names.txt.

    I believe coding "Louis VI Capet" will not work anyway (you should get a crash?). Could you make another version? At some point it will be very worthy to include it in the base mod (with your permission).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 04, 2021 at 12:20 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Family Trees

    I was looking for the answer in the forum, but didn't really find any definitive answer.. I saw you were discussing this thing earlier (2018): https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ussion/page227

    I suppose among the reasons were: 1 - historicity- different families struggling for power and 2- maybe difficulty for the player..
    Personally I don't like playing with a bunch of generals who are having children during the game and I cannot control it, I may disagree for adoption, but what if the hidden family has natural children? And imagine one has 10 cities and 8 generals and is expecting his rightful heir to be born, but instead the other 2 hidden children are born in some shadowy family tree... For me its frustrating. On the other hand after one consequently keep disagreeing for the marriages of the hidden family they will died out after a while, but I am not sure if it really adds a difficulty and is worth it?
    Its just my reflections, I wonder if you were able to find more precise answer?

    Regarding Louis_VI I am just checking the french family tree again. It seems that the Louis VI Capet name functions well. When I change his name to just Louis Capet then I have two characters with the same name and I get crash to menu, so the program distinguishes between the names with numbers like this, at the same time the player just sees Louis without _VI. I was testing playing the french campaign for a while and it seems working good. What is at stake is for example in the German real family tree - its full of "Heinrich" so if I could use the numbers _IV, _V etc that would make possible to use the same name instead of having to use different variations of Heinrich, which seems awkward.. (Henry, Henri?) By the way- I don't need to declare Louis_VI in the names.txt nor in the descr_names.txt...

    I fixed the de_Vermandois name - no more long first names, just a subtle fictional marriage that doesn't really change anything for the game.. And I removed the Hugov etc.. Here are the corrected files, I will consider it an honor if you use it in the mod (permission granted)

    Maybe somebody is willing to test a little more the current version of French family tree to make sure if the names with number works well?
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    I'm getting convinced by your 3rd argument (the personal one). Indeed, we're making a game so teh player should have the tools to manage the family tree.
    Very strange that you don't need to declare Louis_VI. How the engine is dealing with it? I don't know.
    I think the SSHIP moders of old had this rule to avoid numbering of the kings (visible in the descr_names.txt). I think we need to stick to it.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Ok. I will stick to the rule, I understand your caution, I will try to find another way..

  12. #12

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Quote Originally Posted by Macaras View Post
    Ok. I will stick to the rule, I understand your caution, I will try to find another way..
    I wanted to test your work, so should I use the first version only or the descr_strat from the first and other file from the second? Anyway I'll give a go to the version with the numbers, just to see!

    Anyway I think it would be good (I this is what you want) to make your work into a submod and ask a moderator to move it to the right subforum. That way maybe more people will test it or help!
    And small detail: it would nice to keep the mod folder structure in the download you share with us, that way we only have to copy/paste a data folder in our mod folder.
    Cheers!
    Belovèse's Toolbox: export text files to spreadsheet, detailed unit stats
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Thanks Guys for all the hints. So I made a new version - now I kept the file structure so I hope you can just copy and paste all into the Data folder and it should work.. Just remember to restart the game after copying it, because it needs to recreate the file names.txt.strings.bin.
    The problem of Louis_VI I will solve by creating names LouisA, LouisB or HeinrichA,B,C etc. (The attached files have already this new system)
    I declare them in names.txt as follows:

    {LouisA} Louis


    So the player only sees Louis. The new characters that will be given the name will also appear as Louis, the only change is that because of the repeating of the name in the file, the probability of assigning this name to new characters by the game will slightly grow. But - its usually the kings name that is repeated, who wouldn't like to have a name after his king I hope you are ok with this solution. I tried it already and it seem to work well, at least on my comp.

    Belovese, I will also try to create a sub forum as you adviced.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  14. #14

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Nice, I'll try it in the coming days!
    Belovèse's Toolbox: export text files to spreadsheet, detailed unit stats
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project (SSHIP) team member.
    Mini-mods: diplomacy and relation/reputation - detailled unit stats

  15. #15

    Default Re: Family Trees

    I would be very interested if you managed this fix on all factions. Hidden family trees haunt my nightmares. This submod (HIP that is, not this sub-sub-mod) clearly is trying to achieve a higher degree of family and general management, and doing with hidden family trees is to do that without control.

    Imagine playing Crusader Kings 2 but you can't see the family trees or relations of any character that isn't directly related to yours. Being blind on this kind of game is terrible, and I think, from my position as a player, that any sacrifices to achieve better control and, as I like to emphasize here and in EB2, informed decisions, is valid. This is a game, not a simulator.

    PS: I understand it is not my choice to make. But I strongly encourage it.
    Last edited by RodriguesSting; January 06, 2021 at 12:50 AM.

  16. #16
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    I fully agree with you, @Rodrigues. If @Macaras would have a go through (all?) the trees that would be very helpful for us.

    @Macaras, one thing I'd like to achieve is also lowering the retirement age (they go to the monasteries) of the unmarried princesses (so that they don't clutter the family trees while being true to historicy as well). One may do it by setting the age in one of the files (atm I don't remember which one, I've got it in my notes), but it must be also ensured that in the descr_strat.txt there's no unmarried princess alive above this age. So if you could check all the princesses and change it so that no alive princess is above 30 year old, that would also be helpful.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Wouldn't that really screw up factions that take a long time to get diplomats though?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Rodriguez, I also think its much better to have the whole family tree visible, so if we all agree on this point I will continue working on other factions. My plan is to fix all of them, especially that after reviewing some factions I see that many of them are already all set. I am also trying to do it as much historically accurate as possible, so regardless of the fictional marriages and merging family trees that were in reality separate, in 1132AD the situation that the player enters is as faithful to the reality as it can be. For example for the HRE I did some research and found there were mostly 4 families struggling for power - Hohenstaufen, Supplingburg, Welf and Habsburg, and I am trying to make the starting family tree in a way that this is the situation the player enters. To some extend I build on top what we already have in separated trees. I am not a historian so probably my view is very limited, some historians will probably have many comments on it, but this is a nice discussion to have. Another thing is that HRE was really a place of very intense rivalry, so I see already 3 potential actively disloyal conspirators . For now though I will try to stick to what we have - for ex. if right now there is one conspirator I will keep just one. The names may change but the number of active, alive family members and their traits I will try to keep the same. Later we could do some balancing, improving by modifying some traits of the generals if there is too much or too little civil wars.. These are my ideas for now.

    Jurand - I can do it, but maybe lets make the age a little higher - 35 for example, so somebody using them as diplomats may have some additional time? Personally I never let my princesses to be unmarried longer than their 20ties, but maybe Rodriguez's point is worth acknowledging here?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Family Trees

    Quote Originally Posted by Macaras View Post
    Jurand - I can do it, but maybe lets make the age a little higher - 35 for example, so somebody using them as diplomats may have some additional time? Personally I never let my princesses to be unmarried longer than their 20ties, but maybe Rodriguez's point is worth acknowledging here?
    There's two possible ways to get a diplomat. 1 - Have a city (stone walls), and be a capital, or, 2 - Have a city (stone walls), and have a Theologians guild. Quite a few factions have their de-facto capital lower than a city, and GENERALLY, other close capitals (as in, important regions, where you can also get diplomats from) will also be under-developed. That is the case for the Scandinavians and Scotland. You can try rushing to a City via conversion (a Castle have the same buildings, and although you can't put it on low taxes, it got a noticeably lower population requirement to upgrade), upgrade to a stone Castle, and then convert it back to a city to have an early stone walled City, but I am not sure this solution is quite obvious to most players, or even considered.

    Anyway, the difference between 30 years and 40 years is 40 turns, time in which you can do a fair bit, but Princesses can already start working from 14, so the difference is actually between 56 and 96 turns of service. Your choice.

  20. #20
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Family Trees

    Guys, the main point is not about princesses (characters on the map) but about women in the family tree. Very often you don't want to them to marry because your FL or FH are either unmarried, or childless, or can spawn children (have less then 4). You want them to become a nun. But the game engine may keep on giving them a potential spouse. This can be detrimental to your family tree as the FL/FH will stay single. Bad.
    So, @Macaras, go ahead with 35.

    @Rodrigues: you get 1 diplomat already at large town level, so practically each faction does get one:
    Code:
    building city_hall{
      levels town_hall council_chambers city_hall mayors_palace
      {
        town_hall city requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, } and building_present_min_level logging_camp logging_camp
        {
          capability
          {
            agent diplomat  0  requires factions { northern_european, } and hidden_resource capital
            agent diplomat  0  requires factions { middle_eastern, } and hidden_resource capital
            agent diplomat  0  requires factions { eastern_european, } and hidden_resource capital
            agent diplomat  0  requires factions { greek, } and hidden_resource capital
            agent diplomat  0  requires factions { southern_european, } and hidden_resource capital
    
    
            agent_limit diplomat 0        
            agent_limit diplomat 1 requires factions { all, } and hidden_resource capital
            
            law_bonus bonus 1
            happiness_bonus bonus 1
          }
          material wooden
          construction  5
          cost  2050
          settlement_min large_town
          upgrades
          {
            council_chambers
          }
        }

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