Assuming he had paid. What if he hasn't? Are you suggesting if he hasn't or if he's born into a place where people don't have tax money entering healthcare system, he would not deserve treatment as much as others do? (PS: plenty of places are like that, I was born in one)
You grow up on a land where native people were nearly exterminated a few centuries ago.
Do you miss them? Do you feel their loss? What exact positive effect do you think if it might have to you, if they're still there today? Or if Neanderthals are still alive? Or if Black Death or WW never occurred?
None. Same for all of us.
That is the question! What logic do we have to support that?
Is that pursuit driven by rationality and desire toward certain outcome (but then, what would you hope to achieve by saving someone who's 90, for example?) Or is driven by basic emotion like other mammals, unintelligent as they are?
Apparently many seek to be saved from gruesome death. But if what you say is true, why would those believers beg for anything from him at all? Why not just accept whatever thrown at them with dignity?
I really liked Messiah, it was a well thought out show and didn't deserve that silly backlash it got.
Nobody deserves to be saved.
Either goodness is measured in this material world along relative and mutable lines, we will all die anyway and can't be saved. Or goodness is an arbitrary and unattainable state dictated by an incomprehensible deity which condemns all life as unworthy and deserving of infinite torment with the only exception being those few "elect" lottery winners randomly selected for eternal bliss, despite explicitly not deserving it.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
-Betrand Russell
The logic I explained in my post... Read my post again. I get the feeling you don't understand evolution all that well, or you wouldn't be asking these sorts of questions.That is the question! What logic do we have to support that?
Is that pursuit driven by rationality and desire toward certain outcome (but then, what would you hope to achieve by saving someone who's 90, for example?) Or is driven by basic emotion like other mammals, unintelligent as they are?
You would hope that the person would survive, obviously? I don't really understand that question.
Huh? What does that have to do with you not showing evidence for spurious claims? You once again make a claim that neanderthals still existing, black death or WW1/2 never happening would change nothing without providing any evidence or reasoning for that claim. You seem to be unfamiliar with the butterfly effect. Changing any small part of the past would likely alter the future. If the 100m or so native americans were never wiped out, you really don't think it would be any different today?You grow up on a land where native people were nearly exterminated a few centuries ago.
Do you miss them? Do you feel their loss? What exact positive effect do you think if it might have to you, if they're still there today? Or if Neanderthals are still alive? Or if Black Death or WW never occurred?
None. Same for all of us.
No I'm obviously not suggesting that, don't be intentionally obtuse mate. Everyone has a right to healthcare and treatment, whether they pay taxes or not. That's what everyone's taxes go towards, the social safety net. Why do you think you're paying taxes? Do you not understand how this works? ALL earned/spent money is taxed, which pays for all of the goods and services that society comes to expect.Assuming he had paid. What if he hasn't? Are you suggesting if he hasn't or if he's born into a place where people don't have tax money entering healthcare system, he would not deserve treatment as much as others do? (PS: plenty of places are like that, I was born in one)
Check out the TWC D&D game!
Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
Daughter, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan
I didn't ask whether it'd be different, but whether you might be personally better off. Because you're arguing everyone are (equally) worthy to be saved.
Tell me, what part of modern political system, social or technological development is built on top of their legacy? Or related to most humans beings or societies at all? I'm pretty sure none of my ancestors are, nor were most peasants in medieval period.
So now you're telling us most humans are protected by social safety net? because otherwise what you claim would be a fantasy.
Have you visited any poor countries with universal healthcare and seen how it works out? How are their governments supposed to pay for cancer treatments if a person makes less than a dollar a day, or support families whose breadwinners are sick?
First of all, I didn't say everyone was equally worthy of being saved, just that everyone was worthy of being saved. Don't put words into my mouth. We are as a species and society in a position where everyone can be "saved". There's no reason to not try to save everyone.Because you're arguing everyone are (equally) worthy to be saved.
There doesn't have to be a net personal benefit to you for it to be a benefit to the survival of the species and society. Everyone benefits when the helpless are helped. Even looking at it from the edgy misanthropic perspective of yours it stands to reason that you can extract more value from a resource if you don't let it die of easily preventable things. I can't believe you seriously think that people don't deserve to be helped if they haven't done enough for society or can pay for the treatment directly themselves.
A society grows great when old men plants trees they know they wont sit in the shade of.
What does this have to do with anything? You're only worth saving if you have already provided X benefit to society? There's no logic for your arguments at all. I'm not sure you're even sure what your argument is aside from lashing out with a general sense of misanthropy and a deep misunderstanding of evolution and biology.Tell me, what part of modern political system, social or technological development is built on top of their legacy? Or related to most humans beings or societies at all? I'm pretty sure none of my ancestors are, nor were most peasants in medieval period.
Why don't you find where I said "most humans are protected by social safety net"? Did you seriously misread "taxes pay for a social safety net" to be "most humans are protected by social safety net" or are you just arguing in bad faith?So now you're telling us most humans are protected by social safety net? because otherwise what you claim would be a fantasy.
How about not spending it on corruption? How about paying more than a dollar a day? How about any number of better things than just going "oh well, the poor"?Have you visited any poor countries with universal healthcare and seen how it works out? How are their governments supposed to pay for cancer treatments if a person makes less than a dollar a day, or support families whose breadwinners are sick?
Check out the TWC D&D game!
Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
Daughter, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan
So Akar has but one aim in life and that is to survive as his belief in Darwin explains. So, survive what? When death comes for him it is nothing bur blankety blank and nothing else and there you have it. There's a surprise in store for him.
Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!
That's not what Darwin says nor what I said. Go read through this thread and all my posts before you try to make a smart ass reply again, you're just making yourself look bad.So Akar has but one aim in life and that is to survive as his belief in Darwin explains.
Maybe even wait until you figure out something substantial to add to the conversation, rather than attempting wit.
Check out the TWC D&D game!
Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
Daughter, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan
I don't mean to be dramatic, but the aliens running this experiment you call "Earth" literally only care about me.
Check out the TWC D&D game!
Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
Daughter, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan
I will admit that I’m not very well-versed in more Eastern Orthodox schools of theology, but I’m usually unimpressed by it when I encounter it. It’s not really “the most minimal of effort” to repent and seek God if literally no one on Earth does it, at least not according to the Bible in passages such as Romans 3.
Regardless, maybe you could dig a little deeper and envision the thought process of the Christians who do believe the thing I said and do have the conundrum that I was outlining. I bet that will be more on topic than this aside.
In that case, why do ostensibly Christian countries have prisons? I’m not saying that a government’s laws are a 1:1 ratio to sin, but prisons do punish thieves and murderers for being thieves and murderers. The Bible itself instructed God’s people to prescribe such and such a punishment for such and such a sin in the Mosaic law, and so forth.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and eternal punishment if you don't believe in god
When I was 8, I was very interested in ants. During the summer break I would focus on a large fire-ant nest, in our vacation house. I'd spend hours observing them and (in my view) improving the architecture of their nest, by removing sand and forming it like a bunker with a moat.
The ants didn't like it, and they'd attack me.
Then, one afternoon, I noticed a peculiar looking yellow ant, elsewhere in the yard. I took it in my hand and moved it to the fire-ant nest, expecting to see some interesting ritual of greeting between it and the red ants. Instead they instantly rushed to it and killed it with a hundred mandible bites. This led me to feel enraged and stomp on them. But, in reality, it was just wrong on my part to expect something like a greeting, the ants are not humans and have their own ways, and my act of divine vengeance certainly wasn't warranted.
You can ask of the ants to like you, or behave in a way you condone, and kill them if they don't, but it is irrational to expect gratitude for doing stuff they don't want in the first place. Likewise with the supposed existence of a god. After all, why would a human want something like a god to exist? To become an ant? Or to - as Nietzsche put it - hope that in the afterlife he will be rewarded for being an ant in this one, with others punished just for having an easier life here.
Human rights only make sense in the context of sin. If mankind had not fallen short of the glory of God, we would need neither protection from, nor forgiveness for, our sinful nature. Jesus expresses this idea when dining at Levi's house among tax collectors and sinners, saying "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mark 2:17). However, manmade laws (e.g. human rights), even if they are a product of Christianized reasoning, concern the material, not the spiritual. The sovereignty of the state cannot take precedence over the sovereignty of God, nor can it be the path to redemption (forgiveness is through Christ alone). Thus, Jesus gives us the separation of church from state: "Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's" (Matt 22:21).
Supposing one were to accept the existence of a "tension" between man's inherited "unrighteousness" and the need for "irrevocable rights", the most obvious resolution would be found in Christ's altruistic appeal to "love thy neighbour as thyself" (Matt 22:39). This is explored more substantially during the Sermon on the Mount: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?" (Matt 5:44-46). This principle finds a material example when Christ redeems the repentant, but undeserving, malefactor on Calvary, promising that "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).
Last edited by Cope; January 03, 2021 at 03:49 AM.
AqD,
Quote, " Apparently many seek to be saved from gruesome death. But if what you say is true, why would those believers beg for anything from him at all? Why not just accept whatever thrown at them with dignity?" Unquote.
Well ole sir all believers know that they were condemned because God broke down their hardened hearts to let them see just how far from their Creator they were and on Whom that could be rectified. Man cannot escape from God. Man is only a part of God's plan for all creation. That is why our Creator Jesus Christ came into the world to die and rise again to eternal Glory. He preached the Gospel and but for a few all rejected Him and still do despite the signs and wonders He displayed. When death comes there are but two roads on which one travels, one heaven and two hell. Make no mistake about this if anyone reading this feels God telling them they need help, get on your knees and admit it from the depths of your heart for Jesus Christ is that help.
"God's people" there being the Israelites, who were setting up a state or government. The only "punishment" Christians were 'instructed' to give was to dis-associate with the sinner. E.g. see 1 Corinthians 5. Christians had no legal authority when that religion was formed, but were under the legal authority of others (Rome).
To espouse some sort of high-and-mighty better-than-thou misanthropy.What's the point of the question?
Check out the TWC D&D game!
Message me on Discord (.akar.) for an invite to the Thema Devia Discord
Daughter, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan
Ignore List (to save time):
Exarch, Coughdrop addict