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Thread: War of the West

  1. #21
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    I had to review my copy a bit because I couldn't find the right materials for the heighmap. It was definitively too much work for the kind of result I could get

    After some researches, I found several sources and tools I could use. I have to admit that the result is far beyond my expectations, probably with a quality above the game requirements. But who can do more, can do less
    The following pics have been reduced to fit on the site. The real size of the map is 16384 x 8192 px like the original map of Shogun 2 (I think )

    The whole land mass (with the red squazre to show the game area):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Same map but zoomed on a part of the Norwegian coast (to hopefully show the level of details):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The heighmap:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Note that I've put the coast lines in white for a better view. They aren't on the heighmap I'll use

    Same Norwegian coast as previously:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    With Photoshop, the results are much better. Anyway, I still have to amend the map to make it look like during the 1st half of the 13th century as previously showed.
    Last thing, Iceland should actually appear on the upper left corner. However, it would be quite large due to the representation protocol used (I think it is called the OpenGIS or something like that). As this is not relevant for the game, I've choosen to not represent it.

    Comments/critics are welcome

    Edit: For those who may be interested, here are what I've used:
    - For the Land Mass: Advanced Land Observing Satellite (ALOS). You need to register (for free) to use it. It gives you access to a world map, itself divided in square areas, themselves divided again in square. I've just save the pic of each necessary squares and then I've merged them with Photoshop (410 in total)
    - For the heightmap: I've followed that tutorial.
    Last edited by Janbāru; January 29, 2021 at 09:12 AM.

  2. #22
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: War of the West

    The more Norwegian coast the better :p It looks very good!
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  3. #23
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Thanks KA.
    The main problem with Norway is that most of their important settlements at that time are actually located outside the "gaming zone". Based on the information you provided (thanks for that btw), I can use Berguen, Borgund and Stavanger on the main land. Others are too far in the South East unfortunately
    I've some difficulties to set a reasonable amount of regions in there and I'll obviously need to find a way to represent some settlements of a lesser importance and probably with a limited scope of development/upgrade. This being said, there are also the Faroe, the Shetland and the Orkney islands belonging to that faction.
    Another option could be to reduce the size of the map in order to enlarge the "gaming zone". However, the bad side of it is that I would need to introduce more factions (like Denmark, HRE and France) and I'm afraid to make this project too ambitious for me then

  4. #24
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: War of the West

    It's better to start small and potentially expand for sure! As long as the faction is there I'll be happy
    Proudly under the patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader
    Proud patron of 4zumi, Akar, CommodusIV ,Swaeft
    and Peaman






  5. #25
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    My idea is to make each faction with bonus and malus.
    Regarding Norway, they would use mostly navy, heavy infantry and some archers. On the other hand, they will have no or very limited access to cavalry and a quite low replenish rate on a quite extended realm, at least on their starting position. Their population wasn't that important. But only 3 main settlements on their main land seems a bit "restrictive" and some more would be a good addition, even if of a lesser size and importance. I might be wrong but I also think that the royal power was quite stable during the 13th century, rulers improving their central administration. I don't think there were still many jarls contesting the royal power. But you probably know these things better than me
    England should be the strongest faction - I think - at the beginning. However, they will have to face troubles like the Barons' revolt f.e. (assuming it can be scripted).
    Scotland will still have some internal troubles (with Galloway, Ros and Moray) but I still need to make some researche. Not to mention the Kingdom of the Isles on the West.
    Ireland should be divided in several Earldoms with the English in the middle being the trouble makers.
    That's for the main lines for now.
    I'm setting the lakes and rivers on the map now because Alos desn't show them unfortunately. Damn, there are many in Sweden
    After that, I'll work on the regions.
    Last edited by Janbāru; February 08, 2021 at 04:03 AM.

  6. #26
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Aye - Norway had quite the turbulent 12th century with almost a hundred years of civil war, but after 1239 Norway had a very stable kingship, declaring hereditary rule instead of an elected monarchy a bit later, in addition to reaching its greatest extent in the 1260's. That Denmark was plagued with constant civil war from 1241 can also be considered a large factor for why this happened

    England being the strongest is a given, aye! Though internal strife is a given, considering Richard the Lionheart leaving the land barren and all those Baron's revolts propping up - Magna Carta being signed could be of some significance in-game? Depends on what you want to do with it of course.

    It really sounds quite promising, good luck onwards!
    Proudly under the patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader
    Proud patron of 4zumi, Akar, CommodusIV ,Swaeft
    and Peaman






  7. #27
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Many thanks Mate

  8. #28

    Default Re: War of the West

    I've had some thoughts about England's army. And how to try and make it unique. This is before the time of the English Longbow practise being mandated, so having a specialisation in archery would seem wrong to me.

    The Assise of Arms of 1181 provided some inspiration, being a forerunner to the law that mandated longbow practise and other uses of arms.

    Cavalry is what I think England's speciality should be, I wouldn't say the English were anywhere near the best in Europe, or able to amass an unusually large number, but in comparison to Norway, which is over the sea, or Wales or Scotland, England seems to be much better than its neighbours.

    Would having the Baron's revolt be simulated by a lot of England being a vassal of "England" the playable faction be considered an option? I don't know how you plan to tweak the administration from vanilla Shogun 2, but it acts as a way to slow down larger factions and incentivises vassals. As well as pushing the player to keep vassals, which can provide different units. I like the way 1212 for Attila does this, by restricting the number of units you can directly recruit and instead relying on vassals to supply you with larger armies, perhaps having those troops be more cost efficient?

  9. #29
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Many thanks for the info.
    Yes, as said already, England will be the strongest faction at the start. I also agree that calvary should be their strengh rather than archery.
    To be honest, there are still numerous points to be set. I think that if the Barons' revolt is made to be playable, then the starting date should be 1215 AD. I, that case, the question is should it be set before or after the Magna Carta? Because it will set the relations between these barons and the King of England (respectvely at war or as vassals). The South part of Wales can also be a vassal if we consider the Marchers Lords. That can be interesting considering the 2 Welsh factions, the Kingdoms of Gwynedd (playable) and Powys (not playable). Not to mention the English territory in Ireland.
    So to summarize, yes, there are quite some options regarding England and how to not make it too powerful compare to his neighbours.

    The vassal role as scripted in 1212 mod sounds very interesting. I was also thinking (if do-able) to use a culture thing to represent a kind of assimilation - if you like.
    For instance, Norway conquers a territory in the Scottish Highlands. However, the Norwegians would need to convert the local population to their culture to a certain extend prior to be able to recruit some good local units. Again, this is rougthly the idea. I still need to polish it
    Last edited by Janbāru; February 14, 2021 at 12:43 AM.

  10. #30
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: War of the West

    A culture thing would be cool, and def. add some spice to the mix!
    Proudly under the patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader
    Proud patron of 4zumi, Akar, CommodusIV ,Swaeft
    and Peaman






  11. #31

    Default Re: War of the West

    The religion mechanic can be used as culture, as it's the only similar thing in shogun (unless something can be scripted, I don't know). Units can be tied to religion (or culture in your case) only if it's the faction religion. For example, a christian faction in vanilla can't recruit units that require buddhist religion. So it's not tied to the religion of the province, but the faction. Maybe scripts could bypass that, but I have no clue about that, so I won't say it's impossible.
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  12. #32
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Thanks for the info
    I've updated the OP with the recrutiment system originally made by Polycarpe (see Edit 2). However, this was done for the Med 2 engine and would need to be adapted to the Shogun 2 one. But ideally, that's the main idea

    Regarding the map, I've been quite busy on many other things but I'm still working on it (when time's permitting). I'm currently implementing rivers on the work basis map. Hopefully, I should be able to show some progress for discussion within a short time period
    Last edited by Janbāru; March 25, 2021 at 01:55 AM.

  13. #33
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Here is the map of Ireland updated with rivers. That should be hopefully accurate


    Click on it to enlarge

    The next step will be to set the settlements and regions. I'd be very grateful if anybody has info about Ireland around 1200-1215 AD and will to share it here.

  14. #34
    Nelduin's Avatar a.k.a ALG & echuu
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    Default Re: War of the West

    You should ask Princes, Kings and Heroes team, especially Zantorian and PhillipO'hayda (the later one is an Irish Historian, if I'm not mistaken). I assume they are active in PKH for M2TW subforum here, or in Discord.
    Last edited by Nelduin; March 26, 2021 at 05:33 PM.

  15. #35
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Many thanks for the tip. I'll contact them

    Edit: Zantorian seems inactive for several months now

    About Ireland, I've found a document named map of TrÝcha CÚt and their assembly places from Kingdoms, Communities, and Ëenaig: Irish Assembly Practices in their Northwest European Context by Patrick Gleeson (see https://www.jstor.org/stable/2668700...o_tab_contents). However, it gives more than 100 areas which is a bit "too much" just for Ireland.

    I've found another map showing the dioceses in Ireland during the Middle Ages and I've got 34 regions. Not bad. However, when matched with the territories controlled by the Anglo-Normans in 1215 AD, some areas don't fit entirely.

    So I guess that the best option would be a combo of both, giving about 50 regions for Ireland
    I've also started to look for the main settlements for that period but that needs more research. Anyway, below 2 maps to summarize what I've found so far:

    ---> click on it to enlarge

    This one shows the dioceses (thick lines) and the assembly areas (light lines). The names are for each diocese. In red, the Anglo-Normand territories in 1215 AD.

    ---> click on it to enlarge

    This one is roughtly the same but shows the settlements that seems to have been of some importance in the 13th century. However, note that this is just a draft and I'll probably need to look for more info.
    Meanwhile, feel free to comment and/or to point any mistake I may have done

    Philip O'Hayda has shared an interested podcast about the Norman invasion of Irlande. It can be found here : https://irishhistorypodcast.ie/categ...rman-invasion/
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 26, 2021 at 02:02 AM. Reason: Merged for clarity

  16. #36
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Here is a preview of the main factions that can possibly be present in Ireland:


    Click on it to enlarge

    That gives 24 factions.
    Note that names might change and that I still need to set regions and settlements.


  17. #37
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West


    Click on it to enlarge

    The map, slightly corrected to be more accurate
    There are still 23 possible factions. Note that I've started to subdivide some of these regions to implement the settlements.

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