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Thread: War of the West

  1. #1
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Icon1 War of the West

    Greetings,

    I have this project in mind for about a year now and now, I'm crossing the Rubicon. Tbh, I'm not new on TWC. I've modded M2TW for quite a while but I feel the game a bit outdated now and want to try something new. As I'd like to focuse solely on this project, I'm using an Alt. Now, you know.

    Anyway, a friend of mine (Polycarpe) started this WotW project quite a long while ago but never managed to get it completed. So basically, the idea is to pursuit it but based on Shogun 2, possibly on FotS (no decision made for now). The good point is that I can reuse all the good and useful historical informations from that original mod.
    I see 3 challenges for me and for now:
    1. learn how to use the tools to mod Shogun 2
    2. the map: I'll need to create a brand new map.
    3. the animations: on contrary to M2TW, Shogun 2 doesn't offer much choice.

    Now, the project. It would take place in an area covering Ireland, the British Islands and partially Norway.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    -----> click on pic to enlarge

    The gaming zone is defined by the red square. Most of the continental part won't be used (for now) .
    The starting date should be 1215 AD (subject to change if necessary depending how this evolves).
    The factions (subject to change) should be Kingdom of England (divided with the Barons' Alliance), Wales (Principalities of Gwynedd, Principlality of Powys and Marchers' Lords allied to England), Ireland (to be defined between Irish Kingdoms and Anglo-Norman territories)), the Kingdom of the Isles (divided between the Crovan dynasty and Somairle Clann), the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of Norway (represented by the Orkney and Faroe Islands and the West part of the main land).

    While I'm trying to learn how to mod this game, any historical info for any of these factions for that period is welcome, especially about their respective army composition.
    I'll do my best to give regular updates here.

    Edit 1: Some sources found around that can be useful:
    - The Management of the Mobilization of English Armies:Edward I to Edward III by Ralf Anthony Kaner: http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/2494/1/DX207775.pdf
    - Orkney in the Medieval Realm of Norway by Ian Peter Grohse: https://www.islandstudies.ca/sites/i...3-Grohse_0.pdf

    Credit goes to Used2BRoz.

    Edit 2: Recruitment System reference (credit goes to Polycarpe).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Polycarpe Presents..
    War of the West Recruitment System

    Welcome to the preview of WotW's Recruitment System. I am honored to present you all the features of this complex but freshly interesting system which would give a quite innovative and challenging gameplay to suit our most hardcored and historian players of M2TW!!

    Culture Percentage Requirement (%)
    In Britannia campaign, there is no religion (since all the factions are Catholics) but rather their will have cultures, which works pretty much as the same as religion gameplay speaking (public order and such). In order to recruit units, you will require a specific amount of culture %, otherwise, you will not have access to your main units and you will have to rely on Auxiliary units (described later). The amount of percentage required for units depend on their Unit Category; the more prestigious and larger your unit is, the higher the amount required. Here's the list of each cultures in the campaign as well their owners:

    Norman: Kingdom of England , Kingdom of Scotland (Lowland).
    Brythonic: Kingdom of Gwynedd (Wales).
    Norwegian: Earldom of Orkney (Norway).
    Scottish Gaelic: Lordship of the Isles, Kingdom of Mann
    Irish Gaelic: Kingdom of Desmond, House of 'Neill

    England Unit Roster Pool in London (100% Norman)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    England Unit Roster Pool in Dublin (70% Irish Gaelic, 30% Norman)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Unit Pool and Replenishment System
    The system may be the most drastic change in M2TW along several other mods. One weakness of the game was the replenishment rate and the unit pool size, making the game utterly easy causing what I call the Army Factory Syndrome. That syndrome was you actually needed only one or two castles to train and form huge armies for your whole kingdom. In order to fix this issue along having a more realistic and accurate approach of recruiting medieval armies, the replenishment rate and the unit pool size have been drastically reduced. By doing that, you will need ALL your cities and castles in order to make large armies, just like in the Middle Age. In addition, Many factors will affect the replenishment rate such as regions, strength/weakness of the faction, buildings, events, etc.
    To picture the feature, here's a little table to what approximately the values are:

    Household Noble
    Unit Pool Size (Max Unit): 1
    Replenishment Rate: Special (described later)
    Household Professionals
    Unit Pool Size (Max Unit): 1-2
    Replenishment Rate: Between 10 and 2 turns.
    Recruitment Time: Between 2 and 7 turns.
    Professionals
    Unit Pool Size (Max Unit): 1-2
    Replenishment Rate: Between 10 and 2 turns.
    Semi-Professionals
    Unit Pool Size (Max Unit): 1-3
    Replenishment Rate: Between 6 and 1 turns.
    Conscripts
    Unit Pool Size (Max Unit): 1-3
    Replenishment Rate: Between 4 and 1 turns.

    Zone of Recruitment (ZoR)
    The ZoR is a feature that restrict certain recruitment conditions in regions across the map. The first thing is units recruited from their native regions (Eg. London for England, Perth for Scotland, etc.) will have a better replenishment rate than units recruited in conquered/non-native regions (Eg. Dublin for England). As such, any units recruited in non-native regions will have a replenishment rate reduced by 25 %, which means it will take more time to refill your unit pool.

    Recruitment in Native region (England with London).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Recruitment in Non-native region (England with Dublin)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Also, mercenaries are greatly affected by the ZoR. In native regions, mercenary units will not need culture % to be recruited however, they will be restricted to their native regions. But, a faction could train these units outside their native borders if they have enough of their culture %. For example, the Saethwyr (or Welsh Longbowmen) could be recruited without culture % in any native Welsh regions (both for Wales and other factions) however, in non-native regions (such Perth), only Wales could train Saethwyr there (which, of course, would require a minimum of Brythonic culture %).

    Zone of Recruitment London (Norman Region): This region have Mercenary Telderon de Brant and de Lance.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Zone of Recruitment Dublin (Irish Region): Since this region is non-Norman, Telderons de Brant and de Lance cannot be recruited there.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Also, Auxilliary Units are also part of ZoR. Restricted only to native regions, these units will be available as long as their native culture % is high enough. Eventually, in the long-term process of cultural assimilation, the conqueror faction will overwhelm the native culture and no more the auxiliary unit will be available. In addition to these restrictions, the replenishment rate of Auxiliary Units will be equivalent to - 50 % of the native faction, to explain everything, let's give an example: England conquered the castle of Islay, in the Hebrides regions, Norman culture is almost non-existent in that region (5 %), so you will get access to Gaisgeash as Auxiliary Units. After 40 turns, England still own Islay and Norman culture is strongly implanted in that region (85 %). As consequence, England can recruit Paisants, Geldons and Serjeants however, the Gaisgeash are no more available since their requirement is no more fulfilled by the Scottish Gaelic culture.

    Household Nobles Recruitment System
    The feudalism system work under a system of vassalage where one ale to hold a land in exchange for military services. This is where the knight (the vassal) stand for. Our noble own a land but when his feudal lord required military services, he need to take up the arms and answer the call.
    However, the nobles weren't many and if they were summoned by their sovereign, a Banneret will be tasked to lead the nobles. In Middle Ages, a Banneret was a nobleman who led a company of troops during time of war under his own banner or the sovereign's banner.
    Thus, in gameplay speaking, the Banneret will be represented as a recruitable general with the Household Nobles unit as his retinue. The Banneret will be your representant of your settlement's nobility, leading the Noble Bachelors (nobles fighting under another's banner). As long as the Banneret is alive, you will not be able to recruit any other Household Nobles unit in the settlement where you recruited your Banneret. If your banneret dies, automatically, your settlement will have his Household Nobles unit pool unfrozen.

    The advantage of this feature is the Banneret is equivalent of a General unit, your household unit will replenish by itself. This reflects the replacement of the knight through a commendation ceremony (making a bond with a new selected noble). It also reflects a more accurate aspect of Medieval nobility where few knights where available, rare and precious but were among the best warriors a kingdom could have, therefore a small elite retinue for each region. They will be cheap to recruit to represent the military duty they own to their feudal lord and the king. Having Free Upkeep to represent the nobility landowning but they will have an expensive Upkeep if they are used for war (meaning moving outside your settlements). Regarding the family members and adopted characters, they will use the standard Royal General's Bodyguards.

    Newly recruited Banneret (general) in London
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Recruitment Limitation
    Your Factions population can only support so many units based on its population. Once that limit has been reached you can't recruit anymore until your faction grows, expands etc.

    As you expand and upgrade, your factions population grows. based on the number of settlements you own and the number of upgrades per settlement your unit limitation is set. as you train and recruit new units your unit limit gets smaller and smaller until it is reached. Once you recruit enough units to put you over the threshold of your factions size you are unable to recruit more units until you upgrade a settlement (or capture one), thus forcing the player to think about expansion sooner and more often.

    Players will be Forced to think before recruiting random units. Recruiting just to keep order may not be wise anymore. Suicidal Tactics become null and void. if you sacrifice units in battle (or even lose when auto battle) then you are just wasting your population, you can't recruit dead people!. So you can't waste your population on suicidal tactics. You can't rely on 'cannon-fodder'. Each unit becomes more valuable to you. Peasants may be worthless in battle, but they can become precious with this script. Mercenary Units will become extremely important and more valuable as they don't count toward your factions unit limit.

    The loss of a settlement is now a huge deal. Not only do you lose the income from that city and any other benefits, but now your unit limit gets even smaller, making the challenge to take it back a little harder. and in some cases, very hard. The game is alot more challenging. You must balance your income and plan your strategies around your populations limit.

    Mercenary units are not factored in and are therefore free in regards to your Factions Unit Limit.

    Mission Rewards are not included. So if you are granted units for completing a mission they will not affect your Unit Limit. This makes missions more rewarding, and mercenaries more valuable.

    Migration has been factored in. There is a chance every so often that people will migrate to your kingdom, if they do then expect to see small increases in random settlements population levels. These events will also increase your factions unit limitations. People are more likely to migrate if your kingdom is large.

    The Draft. You can draft your population once every turn, this will increase your factions size for a period of several turns when it will then return to normal. You can draft your population as often as you like but there may be dire consequences if you draft too often. You can only enact the draft once per turn. It is possible to have single settlements shut down recruitment options for the duration of one turn just because you over drafted your population (this can cause issues if it is your primary recruitment settlement). Settlements may also experience unrest whilst being drafted, this effect is not so severe, it decreases per turn and your settlement will only revolt if you already have unhappy citizens.

    Peasant Uprising, This is tied directly with the draft, If you draft your population too many consecutive times peasants may spawn near the settlement that does not agree with the draft. It will not happen often, but if it does it may last years with multiple peasants rebelling. If you are too harsh on your citizens they may all eventually turn against you.

    Population Recruited; Every unit you recruit will deduct population from the settlement it was trained in. In addition to that, Disbanded units will give you population increases across your settlements. Disbanding a unit does not give immediate gains, and in some cases can take years for the units to actually affect your population sizes, but you will gain the population back. You must give the units time to migrate back into society. You only gain half of the population cost, this is simply to simulate loss of units in battle and mercenary units which are not part of your population.

    Hope you enjoyed the preview. Comments, suggestions, please share it with me, it will be a pleasure to respond to you!

    Special Thanks
    • Special thanks for Point Blank as he inspires me with his Real Recruitment system.
    • Special thanks to Tsarsies for giving me his permission for using his Recruitment Limitation submod.
    • Special thanks to Withwnar, Gigantus, den5104 and King Philip II for helping me in the Mod Workshop.

    Last edited by Janbāru; April 09, 2021 at 03:09 AM. Reason: Updated

  2. #2

    Default Re: War of the West

    Huh, if you use whole free space in Shogun 2 campaign, then this will be pretty big British Isles
    About animations - my mod (Last Alliance) has large set of new animations, when I will finish work with configuration files, then will be published as modding resource

    Anyway, good luck ^^

    One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,

    One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
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  3. #3
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    That's a really good news about the animations. Thanks a lot.

    About the map, I must admit that I have some difficulties to see how big it would actually be in game
    In the worst case, I can extend it a bit to include Shetland Islands and a part of Norway.

  4. #4
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    That would give something like this (without Denmark):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    PS: sorry for the double post, can't edit my own for now

  5. #5
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: War of the West

    What (I think) Sarah means is that S2TW map of Japan is "a lot of sea" and Japan and still there are 60+ regions there, or with some mods 100+. If you use the whole S2TW "free area" map, you will get a map of England probably bigger than the one for Thrones of Britannia.
    Which for 160+ settlements that your friend has in his Britannica campaign map, is good. Not sparse, not crowded.

    S2TW is a very good choice IMO as it is in the pike & shot era = it has good mechanics for melee fights and good mechanics for gunpowder & cannon fights.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  6. #6
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Thanks ahloon.

    Based on Sara's comment here, I've reviewed the map.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    No big changes, I've just "enlarged" a bit the area, making the game area itself slightly smaller but including the Shetland Islands now (see the red square). The rest of the lands is just for realism purpose and will just be "not playable" areas (like Korea in the orignal game).

  7. #7
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Quick update: I've started t work on the map. I'm currently making the land mass. Shetland and Orkney islands done. Hebrides are in progress. Its size is 7540 x 3770 pixels. That's the biggest map (or the one with the highest resolution) I could find to be used as reference. I just hope that it would be good enough to be used later for the game

  8. #8
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    While working on the map, I need some inputs. For now, my work is based on moderns representations of the North-West Europe. However, coast lines were different in 1200 AD, especially for South East of England (before the flood of February 1287) and Frisia (before St Lucia Storm - december 1287).
    Below a map for England, with the coat lines during the middle Ages (white) and the present one (in grey):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I'd be very grateful if anybody could confirm that this map is correct for 1200 or if some areas were already as nowadays due to the irrigation stuff?

    Another question is about the Baltic Sea: Between Poland, Russia and Lituania, there are 2 basins or lagunas (see map below, where it says Gdansk Basin):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I'm pretty sure that this is due to human action. However, how that coast looked like in 1200 AD?

    Thanks in advance for any help on this

  9. #9

    Default Re: War of the West

    Polish wiki says that Hel Peninsula (long peninsula in north part of Gdańsk Basin) existed even in Mesolithic period, so Gdańsk Basin also should exist in this time But your map will not include this part of Europe, right?

    One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,

    One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
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  10. #10
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Not as a playable area but it will be in the one on the right top corner, to respect that 2x1 size rule. The "gaming zone" should be quite similar as the map showed in post #4 (with the continental part - Normandy, Flanders, Netherlands, Lower Saxony - as not playable area).
    I'll post a pic once I'm done. It takes longer than expected to redraw the coast lines in order to respect the reality and to set the land mass. Only Scandinavia remains (to be done) so far.

    About the Hel peninsula, thanks for the confirmation. But what about the 2 others (just at the East of it)?
    Last edited by Janbāru; January 07, 2021 at 08:24 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: War of the West

    Huh, as I see probably both (Vistula Spit and Curonian Spit) were formed after ice age

    One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,

    One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
    Last Alliance: TW
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  12. #12
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Sorry Sara, I've just found out out that the map actually stops just after the Hel Peninsula

    Edit: Quick update: Danemark done. I'm currently on Sweden and Norway. Damn! Too many fjords and islands
    Last edited by Janbāru; January 08, 2021 at 02:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Below, the basic map from which I'll start to set the game:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    This pic has been resized. Its actual size is 7540 x 3770 pixels. That's because it is the biggest map I could find on the web to draw mine with the help of some satellite views.
    This is based on the present days map. It was slightly different in 1200 AD and still need to modify that (especially Frisia).
    The red square is the area where the game should take place. Flanders and Netherlands won't be included. Everything outside the square won't be playable.
    Last point, I may remove some lakes and small islands depending how the result will look in game.
    Comments and suggestions are welcome

  14. #14

    Default Re: War of the West

    Some tips:
    Maybe use the nasa world map geo website to help you out for making the map. It also has many different parameters for groundtypes etc...Find the link here.
    Use the vanilla map size of the game to make the map and if you want to expand the map, expand from there.
    Maybe use in the future discord or such for your mod. It takes a heck a lot of time to get answers here on TWC.

  15. #15
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Thanks for the tip

    I've used Zoom Earth for the areas where I had doubt. It is more precise than Google Earth for instance. Beside, I've a bunch of different maps to gather all the info I need such as rivers, forests, mountains, regions, etc...
    Unless I'm wrong, the vanilla map size is, at least, about twice bigger than my curent map, right? My idea is to set a basis and then to change its size to make it fit for the game. I've done the example above at 300 dpi resolution. That should give me enough room to play with its size

    Noted for the Discord channel. I'll think about it
    Last edited by Janbāru; January 12, 2021 at 09:55 AM. Reason: typo

  16. #16
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Ooh heck yeah, I love the scope of this
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  17. #17
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Here's a quick update: I've reworked the Kent in England and the North Frisia. Both areas should look more as they should have been around 1200 - 1250 AD. As I have to reduce the pic size to post it here, I've marked these areas (red circles)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Zoomed for a better view:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Kent (England):


    North Frisia:

    I've really looked for old maps and other data. So it should be pretty accurate for the period prior Saint Lucia Storm (1287 AD). However, if anybody sees a mistake, please, let me know

    At present, I'm working on the Netherlands (or West Frisia)...
    Last edited by Janbāru; January 15, 2021 at 09:16 AM.

  18. #18
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    I think that I'm done with the basis (at last):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Below, the West and East Frisia:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    And the North Frisia:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    All this is based on several old maps, maps representing the coasts lines during the 13th century and many readings about history and geology.
    Of course, that's my own interpretation but I think that I should be close to reality. Anyway, if any mistake is spotten, please, let me know.

    Now, I'm going to work on the heightmap
    Last edited by Janbāru; January 25, 2021 at 01:10 PM.

  19. #19
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Good stuff, it's coming along nicely!
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  20. #20
    Janbāru's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: War of the West

    Thanks. But the real work is still ahead

    Btw, heightmap for Ireland and UK done. Starting Scandinavia

    Edit: All the heightmap is done except Norway and Sweden. I've found a very high resolution heightmap for Norway but can't find one for Sweden
    Last edited by Janbāru; January 26, 2021 at 07:30 AM.

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