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Thread: k-pop.

  1. #1
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default k-pop.

    I know that the traditional music industry, since the times of the beatles (they could not claim to have partners or be married so as not to disappoint their followers) and probably before has treated artists as products. They have "asked" them to lose weight, not to show their sexual orientation, to cut their hair, to shut up, whatever. Good for business, but morally reprehensible (I think we can all agree on that).

    K-pop goes to another level in my opinion. Minors who aspire to become members of a band (a band that will be assembled in an office evaluating the profiles of the most outstanding students) enter one of the academies created by the recording industry where they are trained and physically modeled. They are taught to be members of a band (their character in the band), they are taught to dance, sing and act and even usually perform aesthetic operations on them. If they succeed in this hell, they get to be members of a band and to the demands of their managers / record company we add the demands of the fans. There have been quite a few cases of celebrities who have committed suicide presumably given the enormous pressure they are under.

    Meanwhile, what is the western and asian (afaik) society doing? Promote and consume the product. Despite being able to find the horrors of said product simply by googling k-pop abuse. Something a bit schizophrenic, if you ask me. You can find an article today denouncing the "wave of suicides" and tomorrow see one of those bands in the mega popular night show of your choice. Seriously, what the hell is this? Should we cancel them, abhor them, simply value its artistic value or what?

    (I know, I feel severe prejudices for this type of music and I ignore many things about them, their context (south korea) and the music industry).
    Last edited by mishkin; December 15, 2020 at 06:16 AM. Reason: kinda xenophobic bit removed

  2. #2
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    The phenomenon is pretty old honestly, it started back with the Spice Girls and the Back Street Boys.. I even remember a Reality show in Italy which was centered about creating a girl band out of nothing, it was about 20 years ago IIRC, maybe more, so nothing new under the sun. With this I don't want to justify anything, I'm just trying to set a point from which looking at the issue.

    It's business yes, and it's dirty and deplorable like most of business, but what would you expect from humanity? We pay small kids to sew our 200 bucks shoes the whole day long.. we sent very young kids to die in mines, I mean their parents sent them.

    If I am to condemn someone, then they are the parents.. I mean as long as trying to become a k-pop artist is something you do because the alternative is misery, it's something I can accept (like many other things, of course), but I've seen wealthy families pushing their kids into similar routines: in Italy there's a very famous a TV show called "Amici", where younglings are thrown into a proto-professional environment, forced to become artists (mostly singers and dancers) when most of them have no experience at all, and only few have a real talent with which they can balance the absurd level of requests posed by this proto-professional teachers (who are very unskilled and lacking by themselves). You know what, IT RAGES ME, and I don't look at it, but still it's popular.. and those who win the yearly editions usually become famous and rich.. the others? 90% simply fade away, disappear.. such is the fate of the loser.

    Right now I'm reading this article https://www.theguardian.com/global/2...xism-and-abuse, if you are already angry, don't read it
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  3. #3
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Yes, of course the first responsible are the parents. Perhaps my reaction showing disgust against visible figures (irresponsible / hypocritical / amoral media) is also a reflection of these times in which we live. As always, an educated society would be the answer to many evils, but who has nowadays patience or long term vision for that approach
    Last edited by mishkin; December 15, 2020 at 07:46 AM.

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    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    I genuinely wonder if such a society ever existed, or if it's only a matter of among which caste you are born; as chris said in the villain thread

    Alternatively all it takes is to be born into serfdom.
    I'm often disgusted about humanity in general, all that I can do is trying to educate my daughter to be a better person and have higher moral standards.. but again my experience teaches me that standards always come second to needs, that's how the nature designed every living creature..
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    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Food is the first thing, morals follow on.

    Bertolt Brecht
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    food comes first, not the need to be stupidly admired / exploited. I don't think we are talking only, far from it, about people trying to get out of poverty.

  7. #7
    Turkafinwë's Avatar The Sick Baby Jester
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Another thing we can add to the list of things that make you misanthrope. Human beings are not lovely creatures. They have the capacity to be but generally aren't. If we look at all the horrible things we put each other through and other living things, the hypocrisy of the morals and ethics we so zealously profess we follow as long as it is convenient, you can't but think humankind is a terrible entity. It is easier to be evil according to our norms because we are not naturally inclined to be good. That's why we set up a code on how to behave like a decent person. There is no code to being a , everyone knows one when they see one and everyone knows what they have to do to be one. We are dominators, it's what we do, it's what made us the superior species of Earth. We have an inclination to dominate others, even members of our own species. Industries will do anything to satiate their greed, whether the music or any other industry and as long as it is far away from our home that it is happening, where you can't see it, we're all content to let it happen. To put it bluntly, it's not our problem then. I'm no different in this. I have long since removed myself from the woes of the world, woes I can't change nor have any significant impact on. It only gave me stress and made me very unhappy.

    I agree with Flinn in this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn
    I'm often disgusted about humanity in general, all that I can do is trying to educate my daughter to be a better person and have higher moral standards.
    We can't change how the world is and we can't change humankind's ed up parts. We can only try and be the change we want to see in the world (and suffer the consequences for it). This is what I try to do, live by my code, be nice and live as good as much as I'm able.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Perhaps it's a strange thing that music and songs have always taken people out of the immediate problems they might have and so that has always been a good thing. The music industry is a business which if it doesn't succeed will die and over the years it has become so competitive that the artists of any label have a duty to their label to behave as that label expects. People pay good money to hear their favourites just as the label pays good money to make it happen for the artist and so an artist can be paid good money as long as they are prepared to work at their job. Few make it a long term career but that comes down to how much they want that. Of course there are casualties along the way for various reasons and that is unfortunate and is so because each generation has its own idea of what kind of music is their choice.

    As an oldie my heroes were the Everley Bros, Elvis, Cliff Richard, Bill Haley and the Comets, Little Richard, the Carpenters, Abba and yes the Beatles but now I get more pleasure listening to Amanda Holden, Paul Potts, Catherine Jenkins, Alfie Boe and Michael Ball.

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    Default Re: k-pop.

    The music industry is a business which if it doesn't succeed will die
    Yes, that's how every industry works.

    so competitive that the artists of any label have a duty to their label to behave as that label expects
    Do you not understand how contracts work and what a label is?

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    Default Re: k-pop.

    @mishkin

    I not seeing anything too unusual in K-pop. You could drag up the same stories no doubt about Athletes, Dancers, Models and Actors. And obviously all over the world children in many other industries are exploited or to do not get due to poverty to have a pristine non adulthood till 18 or 21 or farther. Overall I not sure I can indite K-pop as particularity beyond the pale. The K-pop abuse stories have a problem in that a lot of issues cited seem to dovetail with issues across Korean society. High suicide rates and un authorized nude picture or filming of people and sharing (not that that is particularity Korean). When US colleges stop have sexual abuse scandals I start claiming k-pop is an outlier.
    Last edited by conon394; December 19, 2020 at 08:08 AM.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: k-pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Meanwhile, what is the western and asian (afaik) society doing? Promote and consume the product. Despite being able to find the horrors of said product simply by googling k-pop abuse. Something a bit schizophrenic, if you ask me. You can find an article today denouncing the "wave of suicides" and tomorrow see one of those bands in the mega popular night show of your choice. Seriously, what the hell is this? Should we cancel them, abhor them, simply value its artistic value or what?
    To me, the term "K-pop abuse" evokes the image of forcing someone to listen to it, so I think I can manage to comfortably continue to avoid it. But I think conon is right about the "training" not being particularly worse than any number of similar industries, which really just means it's a broader phenomenon to be disturbed by.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #12
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    @mishkin

    I not seeing anything too unusual in K-pop. You could drag up the same stories no doubt about Athletes, Dancers, Models and Actors. And obviously all over the world children in many other industries are exploited or to do not get due to poverty to have a pristine non adulthood till 18 or 21 or farther. Overall I not sure I can indite K-pop as particularity beyond the pale. The K-pop abuse stories have a problem in that a lot of issues cited seem to dovetail with issues across Korean society. High suicide rates and un authorized nude picture or filming of people and sharing (not that that is particularity Korean). When US US colleges stop have sexual abuse scandals I start claiming k-pop is an outlier.
    I agree, other situations you mention are comparable. I suppose what annoys me the most is that the media is nowadays showing these people with a smile, completely ignoring what they have suffered, their status as mere products, how they are exploited.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Yes, that's how every industry works.

    Do you not understand how contracts work and what a label is?
    By label I mean the Recording Company whom the artist has signed up for so is there any other explanation? By the way there are industries that are not profit making being subsidized by their taxpayers so not every industry works to make money.

  14. #14

    Default Re: k-pop.

    I agree with some of what has been said, but there is a nuance that is being missed. KPop is as an industry where athletics, sports and other industries were 20-40 years ago. There is systemic abuse but it is not being focused on, the spotlight is on western industries/structures and not so much on KPop, they do not really buy into "me too" aggregate movements, and that might be to their credit but it doesn't mean some kind of examination wouldn't do themgood. It will get around to that though cultural barriers will perhaps slow that down.

    It is also important not to throw baby out with the bathwater, there is a lot of talent spawned by the industry though it is not personally to my taste I do have to suffer the fandom of others via relationships and can recognise it.

  15. #15
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I agree, other situations you mention are comparable. I suppose what annoys me the most is that the media is nowadays showing these people with a smile, completely ignoring what they have suffered, their status as mere products, how they are exploited.
    On balance I do believe I came across too cynical above. I would be in favor of better regulation across the board for any 'talent' based industry that involves minors. But its really hard to balance I think the odd mix of a child with talent that wants to push themselves and then where and when parental pushing (for in many cases their own needs and desires) and that meets big capitalism looking to make a buck is added it can make a mess of things. But I'm still not sure I can say K-pop is an outlier. I think if you hard enough you find the same mix leading to poor ends in a lot of places. SO just I don't want to say mah it happens all the time. But to just reiterate it seems not out of the what is normal. I rather worry more about kids recycling lead over open smelters in West Africa as really getting a raw deal and the massively dangerous and buying your self an early cancer death that is the Indian ship breaking industry.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: k-pop.

    I never even liked the style, and the skeletons in the closet certainly don't help my impression.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I'm often disgusted about humanity in general, all that I can do is trying to educate my daughter to be a better person and have higher moral standards..
    I'd educate my daughter to beat the game, be the moral standard and brainwashing people to shape the world the way she wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Seriously, what the hell is this? Should we cancel them, abhor them, simply value its artistic value or what?
    What else can you offer those minors? Do you want them to accept that they're hopelessly average and a total bore? What make you think they'd otherwise have a life worth living?

  18. #18
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    I remember the days when Shirley Temple and later Haley Mills were child stars and before them Leo Georcie and the Bowery Boys all employed by major studios so how did it happen? I presume parents have something to do with that. Look at the America's got Talent and its sister Britain's got Talent and behind most youngsters on them are parents and family enthusiastically encouraging them. I assume they are there because the dollar and pound signs as well as fame is what every parent wants for their children. It's not just the likes of Simon Cowell who benefit from that.

  19. #19
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    What else can you offer those minors?
    An education would be ideal

  20. #20
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    Default Re: k-pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    An education would be ideal
    Education helps you to get better than other people, to be superior. Be it superiority to your parents, your neighbors, or the poor fellows living next to your country.

    What if everyone has education? then suddenly you're not better anymore. In fact, it's probably even more frustrating to remain average and have less prospect than your parents ever were after two decades of life wasted in schools, knowing that no matter how hard you try, this is it. This is your life now.

    What would you give them, then?
    Last edited by AqD; December 28, 2020 at 02:31 PM.

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