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Thread: Implementing a Playable papal_faction

  1. #21
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    captain - I think that was my test to see what happens if there wasn't a leader at game start when you spawn the 'family' guy. When repeating I noticed that it actually wasn't the captain, it was the family guy that became pope: without the spawn the proper election process starts immediately instead. Here is the script I used after removing the pope in vanilla descr_strat, leaving only 'generals'. Note: at 1.0 wait it's a 'new pope' event, at 5.0 the election starts but does not go beyond the college with the family guy becoming the pope (process gets terminated when the spawn happens, a matter of clicking faster in the election process I guess). Having a settlement or not does not make a difference in this set up (no named character at start, no tree).
    Code:
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType papal_states
        snap_strat_camera 145, 90
         wait 5.0
        spawn_army
            faction papal_states
            character    random_name, named character, age 24, x 145, y 90 , family
            traits GoodCommander 1
            unit    SE Bodyguard    exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
        end
        terminate_monitor
    end_monitor
    revolt\rebel without FL - it's pretty drastic if a character has no loyalty traits. The family guy I spawned before the election in half of the tests turned rebel as he didn't have any loyalty traits to start with, the other guys however stayed loyal without exception, having some level of loyalty.

    Cross fingers for my tree test, eg killing the pope and spawning the family guy with a tree present.
    Nope, 'victory conditions failed'.

    Next one with an additional named character present at game start (in vanilla the pope is the only named character).
    Nope, turning Guido from general to named character didn't help, making him official 'heir' did nothing either, still 'victory conditions failed'

    Any family tree messes totally with the special faction setting, simply have to accept that. No settlement is instant 'victory conditions failed'.

    And all of this doesn't help one bit with your set up. Well, apparently Edison found 150 ways how not to make a light bulb before he succeeded so I am still ahead
    Last edited by Gigantus; December 17, 2020 at 11:56 PM.










  2. #22
    Callistonian's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    If the papal_faction has 'no' family tree and the pope is dead, any character spawned using spawn_army will immediately become the pope. It does not matter how many settlements the papal_faction has. It does not matter how many other named characters, captains, or agents the papal_faction has. This works when the papal_faction is human- or AI-controlled. This works for named characters, captains, priests, and any other type of agent. The spawned character's piety stat does not make a difference (captains have none). This does not work using spawn_character. Recruiting a named character (training a unit with general_unit attribute) doesn't work. Presumably adoptions don't work either (although I've never been offered one when family tree is set to 'no').

    This is quite troubling as I have need to use spawn_army many times for the papal_faction before spawning the correctly named pope for the first time (to enable crusades). I'm envisioning a system where I spawn a labeled pope before spawning the target character, then once the target character is spawned I kill the labeled pope. This would prevent the target character from becoming pope but it would certainly require that I figure out a way to disable the pope_died, cardinal_promoted, etc. events.

    Edit: I implemented the above solution and there is no problem with message spam. If you want to use spawn_army for the papal_faction without spawning a new pope, all you need to do is first spawn a labelled dummy pope, then spawn your intended character, then kill the labeled pope. The intended character won't become pope and there will be no message spam about the pope dying and what not (I'm guessing these messages are only triggered if their conditions change at the start or end of the turn).
    Last edited by Callistonian; January 01, 2021 at 03:58 AM.

  3. #23
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Well, I alread lost count of al the info that was dicovered in this thread, but
    Quote Originally Posted by Callistonian View Post

    Objections to Playable papal_faction and How to Address Them


    1) The papal_faction only works without a family tree, i.e. when set to 'no'.

    Playable papal_faction does work with a family_tree so long as there are cardinals in the College of Cardinals ready to go when the current pope dies - otherwise the faction will be destroyed.

    2) The papal_faction is immortal.

    This is only true when using 'no' for the family tree. Fortunately, the command 'kill_faction' still works so all that's needed is a bit of scripting. Perhaps it would be fun to let them play as a semi-horde.

    3) The papal_faction leader is chosen using the College of Cardinals instead of the normal succession mechanic - for TATW, this means that when the original Sauron dies he gets replaced by a randomly-named (since the playable faction's name list can't have only one entry) pope.

    The promoted cardinal retains all his traits and ancillaries and you can give him new ones using BecomesFactionLeader and etc. The problem is the fact that the new pope gets a new random name and no label which makes it impossible to send him off the map. So in addition to having a randomly-named pope, he's also vulnerable to being killed on the map which messes up any script to regularly spawn a replacement cardinal when the previous pope reaches his old age range.

    I'd say this is the only major problem with a playable papal_faction as described: if Sauron begins at age 16, old_age is 150, and a 4tpy script is used, that's ~536 turns before it all goes to hell - not nearly long enough for players who play long campaigns (the script-benchmark for which, in our mod, is 999 turns). I would rather simply let the original Sauron die than replace him with a randomly-named cardinal which would be impossible to explain.

    4) The papal_faction can't participate in crusades.

    This is untrue. The faction participates in crusades normally as player and AI.

    5) The papal_faction can't call crusades.

    This is untrue. Crusades can be suggested as long as the pope exists (on or off map) but in order for suggestions to be accepted, the papal_faction must have high enough diplomatic standing with themselves which can be accomplished easily in script. We don't know if it's possible to adjust the diplomatic standing threshold for crusade approval or if there are any other factors involved.

    6) The papal_faction is destroyed if all priests for all catholic factions are killed.

    This is untrue.

    7) Opening the College of Cardinals tab as the papal_faction causes a CTD.

    This is untrue.

    8) Inquisitors owned by the papal_faction will be moved and retired by the AI.

    This can be fixed for labeled inquisitors but probably not for generic inquisitors who spawn randomly (see post #13 below this one).
    well, not sure why did you put 3 in bold, you can get around it. In descr_campaign_db you can set piety limit for cardinals, and make sure no priests characters that you dont want to become cardinals would become cardinals (via traits, etc), and in time you could always spawn a new cardinal called Sauron or whatever you need him to, or generally control the elections like this. Or influencing who becomes cardinals in other way.

    What about other things... how do excomunications work? Any sign of influence over papal mission?

    And if we forget about what are you trying to do Callistonian , I suppose the answer to the thread is that there are not so many reasons to avoid papal_states, right? Could you perhaps write an example for how to make playable papal faction (what all things need to be changed, etc)

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Yes, you can control which priests enter the College of Cardinals fairly easily by setting the piety threshold in descr_campaign_db and shepherding any traits/ancillaries with piety effects. The problem with setting a new pope using the College is that when the priest is converted to the faction leader general, he gets a new name randomly selected from the papal_faction's male names list. This is obviously quite problematic for a mod like TATW where the pope is supposed to be Sauron and not a random orc.

    As I found in post #22, there is fortunately another way to create a new pope after you kill the starting pope who was the faction leader in descr_strat. Anyone spawned using spawn_army will become the pope which makes it almost trivially easy to spawn Sauron as the pope at any point in the campaign - no worries about him dying of old age off map, no worries about randomly named generals elected through the College.

    Any catholic faction that attacks the papal_faction will become excommunicated automatically. Playing as the papal_faction, you have no control over this. I'd guess that any other ways to become excommunicated (low diplomatic standing?) also happen automatically without player input. The player of the papal_faction has no influence over papal_missions. However, you could conceivably set up a script so that the player of the papal_faction could assign those missions to other catholic factions, this would be very interesting for hotseat.


    I think Withwnar provided the best answer to my original question as to why the TATW team didn't make Mordor the papal_faction in the first place - they were simply following the example set by vanilla. It is very likely that they didn't bother to investigate any of the things in this thread and just went with the safe option that they knew would work. But, from what I've found so far, there are no game-breaking reasons to avoid using a playable papal_faction. I will consider making a guide on the basic steps to set this up and what to keep in mind.

  5. #25
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Ah okay. Though, when the elected cardinal is from the the papal states faction, I assume he keeps his name? BTW, I also had some issues with some names, I kinda justified it by giving such guys epithets to fix it, in your cause the epithet could be saying something like "Avatar of Sauron" or somehing

    Good stuff... Yea, I mainly meant that some of the missions result in excommunication, perhaps as a player (in SP) you could make a script to assign those missions to AI factions (as they very likely dont receive any) to control it... They would likely totally ignore the missions (though, who knows), so would be an interesting form of control over it...

    Yea, what Withwnar said is how it is. Im kinda say that lot of moders didnt "bother" exploring the mechanics of the game deeper, when it was the most popular, such as this, missions, shadowing etc... while even if we discover some amazing new stuff (as we have), its too late for large majority of the community

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    Though, when the elected cardinal is from the the papal states faction, I assume he keeps his name?
    No, it's still randomized. In fact, I only tested with cardinals from the papal_faction but I assume it happens the same way for cardinals from other factions. If your mod wants to actually use the College of Cardinals, you have to accept that the name will be randomized when they elect a new pope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    I mainly meant that some of the missions result in excommunication, perhaps as a player (in SP) you could make a script to assign those missions to AI factions (as they very likely dont receive any) to control it... They would likely totally ignore the missions (though, who knows), so would be an interesting form of control over it...
    If I understand you correctly, you're trying to figure out a way for the papal_faction player to excommunicate catholic factions without starting a war? Giving the AI factions a mission they can't complete with a payback of excommunication_chance might work, but I think a more interesting problem to solve would be giving the papal_faction player a way to reconcile an excommunicated faction. I don't think there's a payback for reconciliation. Btw, do you know what the inquisition_chance payback does?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Ah okay, weird then. Well, the only was is the epithet or spawn_army as you do then, to fix your Sauron issue. BTW, I might have jut figured out the perfect solution? (just woke up +cofee). If you tke this line from expanded.txt:
    {EMT_PAPAL_STATES_FACTION_LEADER_NAME}Pope %S
    and remove %S would that then display only his title or only his name? Anyway, if not, you could also change the "Dark Lord" to "Dark Lord Sauron", then theoretically some random that comes after wouldnt hurt so much...

    Well, about the AI, I assume it needs a bit testing whether AI itself tries to be in good relations with the pope, I would say there must be at least a little bit, as its big part of the original game. You could modify a variant of the missions which in change would improve the relations (the standing paybacks are set through descr_factions_stannding obviuosly... half the original file is just pope). As pretty sure this mostly depends on relations between the factions (unless they are at war)

    I assume inquisiton_chance must work the same as "infamous" assassination_chance, as its the same format, as well as for the number.For the assassination, if you write 0.5 after it, then when the payback happens, every your general has 0.5 chance that gets assassinated (its meant as penalty), I assume for assassination 0.5 means that every general has 0.5 chance that he gets visited by an inquisition...

    BTW, how does inquisition works anyway? I assume its some simple random calculation of inqusitor skill vs generals piety?

    BTW, funny idea, have anyone ever tried change religion of papal states during game (via the conversion script)? What would happen? Would the original religion loose the papal system, and the new religion the papal states would be now part of would be suddenly using it? Or would the original religion keep?
    Last edited by Jadli; January 29, 2021 at 04:41 AM.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Yes, I was right, removing the %S makes the pope not display his name, but only the title, so perfect for you . Logically, it works the same way for all the factions leaders titles and so on, in case one would want do something like that for the leaders....

  9. #29
    Callistonian's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    That makes sense for the inquisition_chance payback. Denouncements carried out by the inquisitor agent work exactly the same way as assassinations but instead of subterfuge, the inquisitor uses his piety and instead of the target's personal security (or whatever affects assassination chance) it's the target's piety. There is also a base denouncement chance in descr_campaign_db just like for assassinations. And of course, denouncements have their own events just like assassinations.

    Good suggestion to use the pope name in expanded. There are other problems with spawning a new pope using the College of Cardinals though. The portrait also needs to be set correctly and this can only be done using spawn_army. But if we use spawn_army for a priest, he will die when the campaign is reloaded necessitating a script to check this and respawn him if necessary. And since he's going to get converted into a general anyway, we may as well just use spawn_army for a general to begin with.

    I tested converting the religion of the papal_faction mid-campaign and the results were very interesting. I set the papal_faction to catholic in descr_sm_factions. On turn 1, everything is normal. Then on turn 2 I use a script with set_religion to change their religion to something else. Now, the Pope tab on the faction info scroll shows the factions of the new religion, not the catholic factions. I took control of the factions of the other religion and they are now able to call crusades (they now have the Pope tab) while the catholic factions are unable to. So, there's nothing special about the catholic religion - all that matters is the religion of the papal_faction. Any factions that have the same religion as the papal_faction will be able to call and participate in crusades and presumably also get pope missions and etc.

  10. #30
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callistonian View Post
    Good suggestion to use the pope name in expanded. There are other problems with spawning a new pope using the College of Cardinals though. The portrait also needs to be set correctly and this can only be done using spawn_army. But if we use spawn_army for a priest, he will die when the campaign is reloaded necessitating a script to check this and respawn him if necessary. And since he's going to get converted into a general anyway, we may as well just use spawn_army for a general to begin with.
    Whats up with the portrait? By spawning via CoC you mean regularly elected?
    Quote Originally Posted by Callistonian View Post
    I tested converting the religion of the papal_faction mid-campaign and the results were very interesting. I set the papal_faction to catholic in descr_sm_factions. On turn 1, everything is normal. Then on turn 2 I use a script with set_religion to change their religion to something else. Now, the Pope tab on the faction info scroll shows the factions of the new religion, not the catholic factions. I took control of the factions of the other religion and they are now able to call crusades (they now have the Pope tab) while the catholic factions are unable to. So, there's nothing special about the catholic religion - all that matters is the religion of the papal_faction. Any factions that have the same religion as the papal_faction will be able to call and participate in crusades and presumably also get pope missions and etc.
    Oh it really works like the way I hoped? Minblown
    If one was really ambitious, he could use papal faction as a "dummy" faction to regularly travel around every (major) religion to allow crusades/invasions for all the factions, which would shuffle things interestingly with AI invasions....

    (BTW, dont forget about jihads, they can be easily used in mods as well)
    Last edited by Jadli; January 29, 2021 at 02:35 PM.

  11. #31
    Callistonian's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Yes, it takes one turn to exploit the College of Cardinals. You spawn the priest with necessary piety, then the next turn he gets elected. You can't specify a portrait with spawn_character so you must use spawn_army. But the spawn_army command creates hybrid agent-generals who die (presumably) for lack of bodyguard when the campaign is reloaded. So if the priest is spawned this way, then the player saves and reloads, the new pope won't be spawned. This can be fixed with some scripting, but it's just easier to use spawn_army to spawn a named character instead of a priest. If you use a named character, I believe the scripts naming method will work. If not, we can just use random_name and use your trick with the pope name in expanded so that "Sauron" can be removed from the generic name pool for Mordor.

    I was thinking the same thing for enabling invasions for any faction. The problem with using a dummy faction is that they will need to exist on the map and hence will show up in the rankings, diplomacy, etc. scrolls. If the faction is dead (which is usually the case for dummy factions used for the scripts naming method or etc.), then the pope won't exist and hence invasions won't be available.

    But I don't think it's necessary to use a dummy faction. There are scripts out there (mostly developed for DCI) for allowing non-catholic factions to join crusades and non-islam factions to join jihads which don't involve a dummy papal_faction.

  12. #32
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    How exactly do these scripts work though?

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    I think the original idea came from this thread. The basic idea is to use set_religion to temporarily convert factions to catholic or islam so they can participate in crusades and jihads respectively and then setting them back to their original religion at the correct time in the turn cycle. Although we just discovered there is apparently nothing special about catholic, there may still be something special about islam since they don't use a papal_faction for jihads.

    I'm fairly certain I've seen scripts like this that allow non-catholic factions to participate in crusades for DAC. But I'd say the state of the art script is in DCI where they account for the invasion caller's diplomatic relationships, AI/human control, target faction religion, and correct timing for the conversion and back-conversion during the turn cycle. It's a fairly complex bit of scripting, but I encourage you to check that out if you want to implement such a thing for your mod. I will warn you that their current script is not hotseat compatible.

  14. #34
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Oh, nice and sweet (how did I miss that thread lol)! Seems we have reached DCI level of brainstorming, so I suppose we can just close this thread now . (though, seriously, I cant enjoy a proper singleplayer campaign anymore because of too many years in hotseating, which is a whole another level of medieval 2 experience...but DCI is one of the few mods that have been making me want to try singleplayer again, gonna play it soon)

    Well, you discovered the ununiqueness of papacy for catholic factions for yourself, I already knew, thats why I asked about converting the papal faction in the first place, whether it would really work.... anyway, good stuff, i guess will do some testing with this at some point and mainly check how it works in DCI. I suppose their business could be now made even easier with EOP, as you can have even more religions, which might create some more space for "dummy" religions.

    Anyway, talking of grand ideas, I suppose I will share the one I have had. It would actually work vice versa, non papal factions would be actively converting in and out of papal religion. What I miss the most in Medieval II (especially compared to Crusader Kings ) is a proper vassal system - a ruler faction and a bunch of vassal factions. There is no proper way to get this working via normal means (even if you somehow create script system for this, AI is just always gonna fight only its neighbors anyway, etc), and as I have found out when testing with EOP, the vassal mechanics (the diplomacy status) is broken anyway, the AI gets kind of crippled when its a vasal - However, the papal system is actually very close to simulating this.

    So in mods that feature some major central realm consisting of several factions, such as The Empire in TES, Seven Kingdoms in WTW, or HRE in das Heilige Romish Reich mod, etc - I was thinking about using papal system for this. In (my) TES (sub)mod for example most of factions are meant to be vassals of the Emperor, but the best you can do is just make them allies and thats about it...

    The papal system would work like this (and pretty sure this way applies to all mods with similar setup, like the ones I mentioned):
    - Religion would be replaced by form of government/realm loyalty/crown, and the pope would either be:
    a)the emperor itself (but that wouldnt work well with family tree of the ruler, if he is meant to be from a ruling house... could be somehow possible if there is no CoC via the things you tried I guess)
    b) representing some kind of council of nobles leader (Elder Council in my case)
    c) possibly a dummy faction (if you have a spare faction slot to sacrifice) which would be copying its faction relations somehow to be the same as emperor's faction relations, so the ruler faction would get to function normally while strongly controlling the papacy. (I suppose thats kind of the TATW way)
    - Though in either of the cases CoC doesnt entirely fit, as the rulers of vassal factions themselves cant be in it, but on other hand it doesnt matter if they are in it or not, it just matters if a cardinal (councillor) from their faction is in it, to have better relations with the pope/emperor. Or the CoC could be made empty (increasing piety limit for cardinals) and just giving the imperial/papal faction cardinals... As you tested, even with disabled CoC, there is no way to make family tree properly work with papal faction from what I gather.
    - Obviously all the missions and stuff like that would have to change descriptions a bit, but it could ultimately work totally the same.... Emperor asking vassals to stop fighting each other makes total sense, build churches would be just changed to some government buildings, spreading religion would be spreading the realm influence etc...
    - Excomunications would work very well, as some form of Imperial ban for example (HRE) as well as crusades, as the Empire/Realm is always trying to expand.
    - And the most juicy part would be using conversion script to add/remove vassals into the realm - such as when the realm conquer another territory/break the enemy faction, etc, would require some scripting. And from other hand, the factions could also leave the realm when the emperor's authority is low, they have too bad relations, there is civil war etc...
    - Also regarding replacing religion with form of government, that could be also an interesting mechanics itself, as every other faction than the liege would have a choice between the realm government and some kind of their regional ones (possibly factional) pretty much, and the regional government would naturally be slightly more advantageous to the faction, but less safer, as the Empire would be always trying to kill you. And I assume players task would usually be break from free and "make his own independent realm", which would be tremendously more difficult and challenging than usual campaigns, while emperors goal would be to get everyone into his realm. If it was possible to have more papal systems than one in the same time, hence more realms fighting each other, that would be even more interesting, but so far impossible (dont think converting the pope would suit this realm setup)
    Last edited by Jadli; January 29, 2021 at 11:54 PM.

  15. #35
    Callistonian's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    I like your ideas. There is definitely lots of potential for playable papal factions.

    We found that the family tree isn't really viable for a playable papal faction because the normal succession mechanic is disabled (no heirs) and it takes the College of Cardinals 1 turn to elect a replacement pope, so if the current pope dies the faction dies. You can still use a family tree, you just have to accept this. So you could hide the pope off in the corner of the map or something, but he will eventually die of old age and then the faction dies. And having the pope off in the corner of the map isn't exactly compatible with the idea of a family tree anyway.

    The faction works better if you set the family tree to 'no', but then they become immune to most ways for killing a faction. They can have literally nothing on the map and still be alive even when they're player-controlled (all you can do is helplessly end the turn). In order to kill the papal_faction, you have to use a script that checks certain conditions (no settlements, no named characters, etc.) and then issues a kill_faction command. Or, you could refrain from script-killing them and let them be basically an uber-horde faction that's just waiting for assets on the map to continue playing.

    It's not possible to have multiple factions with the papal_faction tag in descr_sm_factions - the first faction on the list with the tag is the papal faction.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Don't want a new thread so write it here. Papal_faction is playable in Bellum Crucis mod. Papa gets huge negative numbers in wages part of financial scroll from 15-17 turn. And it doesn't made by campaign_script, because when I disable CS situation is the same.

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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    You mean wages for units? Well, the only is that he received some new units..

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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    No, not army upkeep. Another line in financial scroll list named SMT_WAGES.

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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    Hm, wages are for agent types (agents, possibly aslo generals/captains). I assume it might be a bunch of inqusitors being spawned (as that happens often with papal_states)? Check if their wage is zero or not in descr_characters

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    Default Re: Why Avoid Using papal_states?

    @bitterhowl - I can't reproduce this. Wages are exactly what I would expect them to be for my papal_faction based on the number of agents and named characters I have on the map. There must be something special happening in Bellum Crucis. Wages are an expenditure, so if it shows up as a negative number, does this mean the faction is actually gaining income from wages? Have you checked descr_character to see if there are any negative values for wage_base?

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