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Thread: Changing your mind...

  1. #21
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    antaeus,

    Debate is good so there's no denying that. When it becomes bad is when linguistic fisticuffs are used to build a case against what is nondebatable on the part of an opponent. For example, on these threads the moment a person signifies that he or she is a Christian the gloves come off. Then one has the choice to carry on debating or not. It's not a sign of weakness, rather a sign of using the loaf properly.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Debate usually is a charade: we pretend to play a game by certain rules and declare that whoever wins can lay claim to the truth. In reality very few debates are grounded in shared axiomas and the apparent validity of arguments depends less on their logical rigor than on the axiomatic views held by the observer. As for debates on science, unless the participants are the world's leading experts, the 'winner' is at best the least inexpert of the participants. For all that it is considered a debating 'fallacy' we would in most debates be better of appealing to authority.
    On average I find you'll end up with an average that is far from even that 'at best' metric. Whoever can sugar their points into making the other party give up and not address them, not even concede tends to be the de-facto winner until the conversation is re-railed to another subject with new, if unspoken grounds.

    Distressing state, really. The foundation of what makes the subject of the OP nigh unreachable in most cases.

  3. #23
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Do you see the ability to change your mind a personal strength or a weakness?
    Neither.
    Either way, one necessarily has sufficient cause so to do. Otherwise, one could not have done so.

    and when you see others change their mind do you treat it as a strength or weakness in them?
    Instinctively: Weakness.
    Rationally: Strength.
    But there is a kernel of rationality in instinct and all schema of rationality must necessarily lay upon an a-priori of a swirling mass of incomprehensibility.

    We become so effective at reframing evidence to suit our desired narrative that the use of evidence itself becomes secondary to our ability to reframe. Through this process and combined with the lack of accountability that the internet provides, we entrench our perspectives.
    True.
    But it's not like having entrenched opinions is new.
    It is human nature to tribalize, with signifiers such as opinions/dress/rituals/etc., it always has been so, it's not remarkable. What is remarkable is that in the latter 19th and 20th centuries significant pockets of discourse emerged that genuinely valued a rare concept called "truth", rendered in new and exciting ways coupled with "good-faith". Periods of de-entrenchment are rare and fleeting. I believe such events happen periodically, but pass relatively unnoticed (assuming that it is part of the Hegelian dialectical progression of future-history) and we continue as if we are genuinely furthering those values, which you point out - generally, we do not. Something that is pretty neat is that now we seem very aware of this fact. So there's that in which we may take solace.

    Adding to your point about how the internet plays a role in this: I don't think anonymity plays as much of a major role as we often assume, almost the opposite in fact: we develop conjoined identities within which our ego grows upon itself like a metastasized tumour, amplifying all of the ill-effects of the ego and the id. I think the lack of accountability only plays a minor role (if any at all).

    And subjectivity: there really is only one perspective and that is the subjective perspective, the only centre of the observable universe is the eye of the observer. The "objective" is merely the combination of several subjective perspectives, the combination of which is yet again subjective, aligning to a schematic purported to be "objective," but, of course, was developed by an individual. There is no escape from our subjectivity. I don't know where I'm going with this, so I'll stop here before I end up posting a wall of text again.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  4. #24
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    OK, since this is becoming too serious for me I'm quitting the thread but I may have a change of mind by tomorrow.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Lets be honest mate, nobody has ever 'joined' and is properly 'hooked' in the first place until they next deign to post and have something to say, be it the same day or next week. A span of a day does not make a distinction.

  6. #26
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    CommodusV,

    The changing of one's mind is as natural as breathing although probably not as essential but what then if our brain did not have the capacity even in the twinkling of an eye to change a decision, we'd be channel visioned. We wouldn't be able to weigh up things in an instant and so choose rightly or wrongly the way to go.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    CommodusV,

    The changing of one's mind is as natural as breathing although probably not as essential but what then if our brain did not have the capacity even in the twinkling of an eye to change a decision, we'd be channel visioned. We wouldn't be able to weigh up things in an instant and so choose rightly or wrongly the way to go.
    The brain's ability to change and make decisions is a complicated subject. On one hand, we are capable of flips on a whim. On the other, memes aside, we all unto ourselves have founding logic and internal consistency. It may not be universal, it may well be narrow, it may even be channel visioned to the things you prioritize and consider correct at the omission of all else that contradicts it. Just as we are capable of making snap judgements, we are capable of forming nigh indomitable narratives that require a particularly open mind or special key from another party to break. When that foundation is made, even outright evidence to the contrary most people would accept may be considered suspect. It could be replied to with deflection, smoke and mirrors, skepticism that attempts to bungle it down to subjectivity and unprovability, even outright refusal, or falling back on statements and principles used as unquestionable blocks.

    In so many words and implying examples some here might appreciate, I must disagree with the openness of your statement. We are indeed able to change our minds, but through first impressions built upon especially, we are equally capable of refusing reality itself to follow them. Because that is how we know to live, and it wouldn't do to destroy that mental fabric of how the universe works. All must boil down to summary, and that summary becomes our working perception.

    I don't know if you were going anywhere with the comment, but in the spirit of the DD I feel obliged to make an argument of it anyways. Forgive me for delayed responses going forwards.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    You are running up against basic human psychology.

    When it comes to issues we don't really care about, we usually don't have any problem in changing our minds. If you thought that Los Angeles was the capital of California but later learn that it is Sacramento, you probably won't have any problem in changing your mind, since you probably are not emotionally invested in your belief that Sacramento is the Californian capital.

    When it comes to issues that are part of our identities (often politics or religion), then changing one's mind is much harder. When that happens, we dig our heels in ang engage in motivated reasoning so that we can retain that belief and still feel good about it. I think a lot of pseudosciences and denialist movements, like creationism and global warming denial, can be explained by that.

    How to dal with it? As humans, we can't really undo our basic psychology. I think it is better to be emotionally invested in the process, rather than any specific belief or conclusion. That way, it won't cause emotional pain to change one's mind when confronted by new data and evidence.

    Please read this for more information on this topic: More Evidence for Motivated Reasoning

    The problem comes from our special set of beliefs in which we have an emotional investment. These are alleged facts or beliefs about the world that support our sense of identity or our ideology. We commonly call such beliefs “sacred cows.”

    When those beliefs are challenged we don’t take a rational and detached approach. We dig in our heels, and engage in motivated reasoning. We defend the core beliefs at all costs, shredding logic, discarding inconvenient facts, making up facts as necessary, cherry pick only the facts we like, engage in magical thinking, and use subjective judgments as necessary without any consideration for internal consistency. We collectively refer to these processes as motivated reasoning, something at which people generally excel.


    I do think it would be helpful to make a specific effort to be more detached when it comes to ideological beliefs. Factual beliefs about the world should not be a source of identity, because those facts may be wrong, partly wrong, or incomplete.

    This is easier said than done. My strategy has been to focus my emotional investment in being skeptical. Take pride in being detached when it comes to factual claims, in following a valid process of logic and empiricism, and on changing your mind when necessary. It is important to focus on the validity of the process, not on any particular claim or set of beliefs.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    I agree with some other participants in the thread that honest discussion is preferable to debate, and I try to avoid the latter. Debate seems necessary only in some specific contexts such as deciding on policy, because we often must decide in between mutually exclusive alternatives.

    I would like to point out that some things should not be subjected to debate, such as someone's fundamental belief in Christ. Not only because it is futile, but because it is unfair. I don't see why I should harrass someone into changing their personal beliefs unless those beliefs are causing some real-world problem that I absolutely cannot live with. I can live with member Basics having his Christian conviction.

  10. #30
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I would like to point out that some things should not be subjected to debate, such as someone's fundamental belief in Christ. Not only because it is futile, but because it is unfair. I don't see why I should harrass someone into changing their personal beliefs unless those beliefs are causing some real-world problem that I absolutely cannot live with. I can live with member Basics having his Christian conviction.
    If a religion includes proselytism or is evangelical in nature, then debate is a fundamental part of spreading that religion. Believers have to convince non-believers to join as an act of participation in the religion. Without proselytism, many religions wouldn't exist. So I think it is a fair balance that this conversation can go in two directions?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  11. #31

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    If a religion includes proselytism or is evangelical in nature, then debate is a fundamental part of spreading that religion. Believers have to convince non-believers to join as an act of participation in the religion. Without proselytism, many religions wouldn't exist. So I think it is a fair balance that this conversation can go in two directions?
    Oh yes, absolutely. I am glad that you brought that up. I see proselytizing where that is not expected as exactly the same kind of harassment. I would personally avoid it by distancing myself (such as on a street). On a forum such as this I would adopt a strict moderation policy for pushing a religious agenda in discussions where that is beside the point. If nothing else works, of course one should have the right to defend ones own point of view.

  12. #32
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    So, can anyone tell of the greatest change of mind that literally changed their outlook or direction?

  13. #33

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So, can anyone tell of the greatest change of mind that literally changed their outlook or direction?
    An excellent question, Basics. I am going to think about that for a while. Hopefully I can come up with something meaningful to share. Not holding my breath on many forum members sharing their story, though. I am happy if they do.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So, can anyone tell of the greatest change of mind that literally changed their outlook or direction?
    I've had several directional shifts recently as a result of unsustainable attitudes. These were online and hobby mind you, as I consider my work life to be relatively stable, though personal life less so. Directionally I suppose the largest change would be a begrudging acceptance of things I always agreed with on paper, but never lived by. They would include a regard for legacy, a drop of the 'tainted alias' concept that's often made me an unsustainable figure, and a more natural ease into congenial manner as compared to a generally bleak 'if you don't like me, take a hike' underlying mentality. In other words, I'd like to believe my restructurings have made me a somewhat better person. It's vague, but I can't think of many broad changes to offer except on specific matters. I've always made a point of at least trying to be flexible on individual things.

    My greatest personal concern is becoming like someone I know, too settled in his ways and unable to see just how much is ignored to support a rather short-sighted worldview. The person in question (not on TWC) isn't a bad person, quite the opposite. But the circumstances over the past few years have just about frightened me out of certain attitudes, even if I didn't necessarily have them in the first place. That goes out of scope though.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    I have made a complete U-turn in my political or societal views at a certain time because the more I learned about economy and the world, the more I started to find the positions that I had acquired at a young age to be based on completely untenable principles. After that, there was another less radical adjustment of views as I started to mature philosophically and in terms of life experience. I started to feel that the more recently acquired principles work better on paper than in practice; our societies are extremely complex and I found that to ensure as much happiness and human well-being as we can, we actually have to make some substantial compromises.

    None of that is very unusual or interesting. I am under the impression now that those kinds of reassessments in ones views happen to many over the course of our lives. To any young (or older) members here who still have not gone through their first political transformation, I would urge you not to think that people who disagree with you politically are stupid or malicious. People of great intellect and compassionate character can come to very different political conclusions based on an extremely complicated set of life experiences and circumstances.

  16. #36
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I have made a complete U-turn in my political or societal views at a certain time because the more I learned about economy and the world, the more I started to find the positions that I had acquired at a young age to be based on completely untenable principles. After that, there was another less radical adjustment of views as I started to mature philosophically and in terms of life experience. I started to feel that the more recently acquired principles work better on paper than in practice; our societies are extremely complex and I found that to ensure as much happiness and human well-being as we can, we actually have to make some substantial compromises.

    None of that is very unusual or interesting. I am under the impression now that those kinds of reassessments in ones views happen to many over the course of our lives. To any young (or older) members here who still have not gone through their first political transformation, I would urge you not to think that people who disagree with you politically are stupid or malicious. People of great intellect and compassionate character can come to very different political conclusions based on an extremely complicated set of life experiences and circumstances.
    Isn't it a fairly natural process of ageing that one becomes more conservative and less risk taking or activist as one accumulates possessions and loved ones (things that can be lost) and the sum of one's bad experiences grow (which have more lasting psychological impact on our behaviour). I spend a lot of time thinking about how to undermine this tendency in myself, rather than foster it. Possibly this is for another thread.

    By change in this thread, I am more speaking of that moment when we are confronted with evidence that we are wrong, or our opinions are found to go against our best interests, rather than about a natural drift over the course of our lives that slowly changes our perspective - where we have to confront the dissonance of our incorrectness, rather than let it slowly fade away over year.

    I guess one of the problems with our political perspectives, is that other than ensuring humanity's ongoing survival, there is no wrong or right way to assemble human societies. But rather there is a plethora of different organisational structures that adequately ensure our survival. So our debates over politics can not be entirely right or wrong. Even the more moderate 'better or worse' is subjective based on one's viewpoint.
    Last edited by antaeus; February 16, 2021 at 04:10 PM.
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Isn't it a fairly natural process of ageing that one becomes more conservative
    I know the process you describe and may have set you off the track by making a reference to many people undergoing a change in their view of politics during their lives. But for me, the U-turn really was a powerful change of direction at an early life before aging played much role, and it had to with being convinced otherwise by certain people and authors.

  18. #38
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    antaeus,

    There is no doubt that as one gets older one of two things happen, one becomes more sedate or one becomes more bitter and so I hope my position is of the former rather than the latter. I was forty when the great change to my life came upon me and since that moment I have not one regret for it.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Hence why I don't bother getting into Internet debates anymore. It's rare to come across a person online who is genuinely open-minded and interested in a good-faith conversation.
    You were doing it wrong to be begin with. The interweb is for various propagandas and tech. Have you looked at sites that aren’t modding sites. The well had its time. Reddit is ok. The old anon boards are gone or decrepit sadly. Dedicated forums for conservatives/liberals/anarchists etc exist and discourse works better when argument is forced to be practical because most ideology is closely aligned.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    You were doing it wrong to be begin with. The interweb is for various propagandas and tech. Have you looked at sites that aren’t modding sites. The well had its time. Reddit is ok. The old anon boards are gone or decrepit sadly. Dedicated forums for conservatives/liberals/anarchists etc exist and discourse works better when argument is forced to be practical because most ideology is closely aligned.
    You're probably right, but to be honest I'm not really into Internet posting anymore. I can write up a quick post every now and then but the days of multi-page debates are probably over for me.
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