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Thread: Changing your mind...

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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Icon2 Changing your mind...

    There's an adage... "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock". It's a hokey saying often attributed to Jefferson, although he didn't actually say it. It is a moralism that people use to justify intractability and reduce subjectiveness in discourse.

    I see the ability to reassess information and change a decision or opinion on a subject as a strength. To use the language of the above moralism, I don't draw a distinction between issues of style and matters of principle - I see both as largely subjective, and therefore as my life situation changes in time, my perspective on each is likely to change: either intentionally, or through accumulated experience.

    In my day to day interactions, I have deliberately sought to be flexible. I work in that career field where it is an asset to be able to separate your ego from your work. I justify my work through iterative and evidence based testing processes. This means I make a guess based on what I know, I test my guess, I iterate my guess based on feedback, and retest. The cycle is repeated until I reach a result that has broad acceptance. Many years ago I discovered through these processes that my gut isn't always correct, and that I am valued for my responsiveness to counter-evidence.

    However there are many contexts where flexibility can appear to be a weakness. Thanks to my history in competitive debating, I have also developed the ability to argue or debate a point separate to my own opinions. To Devil's advocate. This is a hallmark of the careers that follow from debating. Be it in politics, law, dispute resolution, etc, debaters are trained to take a position on a subject that is separate to their personal beliefs. Certainly, as a lawyer it is important to be able to argue a client's perspective - and the law demands that even the most abhorrent person out there must have fair legal representation. And politicians have to argue within the framework of the party that they have been chosen to represent. When I see a politician change their perspective, they are often castigated, either for their former perspective, or their latter.

    Where things get interesting for me is when we throw cognitive biases into the mix. While it is important to be intractable when arguing for other people's perspectives - as a lawyer or politician for example - It is harder to justify intractability of principle when debating subjectives from a personal perspective. Most of us here who debate online, become good enough at arguments that we become almost impossible to convince of wrongness. We become so effective at reframing evidence to suit our desired narrative that the use of evidence itself becomes secondary to our ability to reframe. Through this process and combined with the lack of accountability that the internet provides, we entrench our perspectives.

    I would go even further. I would suggest that through our debating culture we not only strengthen our cognitive biases, but we also we render our ability to change course in a discussion as weakness. This leads to forced binaries in our conversations about nuanced and potentially subjective topics for which there is not necessarily any wrong or right. It also leads to us debating ideas that we don't entirely agree with, simply because they are part of a broader set of perspectives that we are defending. I would argue that the most dangerous opinion, is that which is held by someone who is good enough at debating to convince themselves of their righteousness, but not introspective enough to see their own misjudgements. Most of us here would fit into this description - dangerously opinionated.

    When I look back through my posts over the years, I can see a hardening on some issues, and completely changed perspectives on others. Two questions: Do you see the ability to change your mind a personal strength or a weakness? and when you see others change their mind do you treat it as a strength or weakness in them?
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    antaeus,

    People change their minds probably easier than anything else they do. For example will I shower this morning or leave it until later in the day? Shall I have bacon and eggs or just toast and coffee? Shall I take the bus or just walk? There's nothing melodramatic in something that is as natural as breathing. Even in the most professional employments split second decisions can be a change of mind and I think of pilots and racing drivers here. The ability to do so is a Godgiven gift built into us and thankfully so.

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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    antaeus,

    People change their minds probably easier than anything else they do. For example will I shower this morning or leave it until later in the day? Shall I have bacon and eggs or just toast and coffee? Shall I take the bus or just walk? There's nothing melodramatic in something that is as natural as breathing. Even in the most professional employments split second decisions can be a change of mind and I think of pilots and racing drivers here. The ability to do so is a Godgiven gift built into us and thankfully so.
    Certainly, we change our minds all the time about the mundane or frivolous. But what I'm getting at here is the difference between the day to day things like choosing what to have on toast, and the bigger picture items such as things intertwined with our identity. And how the consequences of us holding undeniable positions varies depending on the context of discussion.

    For example, when debating online there are no consequences for someone keeping a seemingly undeniable perspective or belief because the people they're debating with have no relevance to their ego outside of the debate. To use you as an example, as someone of religion, how likely do you think it is that you're going to waver from your belief based on an internet debate? I'd suggest that every debate you have online strengthens your belief because there are no consequences for you to continue to hold that belief, even in a hypothetical situation if the debate were to show it is misplaced. You are good enough at arguing your perspective that debates online in essence become a tool for entrenchment of belief, rather than questioning it. I use you and religion as an example here, but this would be true of anything that is a part of our identity. Be it political parties, morality, culture, etc etc.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    antaeus,

    My life has been one of victories and failures but out of these have come experiences that led me to the God Who saved me and Whom I worship. It is the experiences since that transforming day that has convinced me that I am not ever going to change my mind regarding having Jesus christ as my Lord and Saviour. Do I ever doubt Him? No, but sometimes I do doubt myself especially when my faith is tested. As for changing my mind, how can I having the experience of knowing Him and His works among men also given the chance of new life?

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    but we also we render our ability to change course in a discussion as weakness.
    This is a bit of a generalization, but also the crux of the issue that I think you're trying to get at. People should view a discussion as an exchange of ideas, rather than a competition between two sides. The end goal of every discussion shouldn't be to wholly convert every onlooker and participant into unwavering belief in your side, it should be to give both parties a platform to enunciate their position to the best of their ability and foster understanding between viewpoints. The absolutely integral ingredient to any argument, discussion, or debate is the implied agreement that both sides entering into the argument, discussion, or debate are willing to cede ground to the other in face of a sufficiently convincing argument.

    If you're unwilling to change your position or understanding of a subject, then you aren't arguing, debating, or discussing anything - you're proselytizing. Doing anything for too long can make you begin to get into the motions of doing the act without thinking of the reason. It's important to step back and ask yourself why you're engaging in that discussion/debate/argument. If you're not engaging with even the possibility of change on your mind, then you're not engaging in good faith.

    If all you're getting out of discussion is that someone "won" and that someone else "lost" than you're missing the entire point of the discussion.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Akar,

    I don't ever remember you changing your mind on any discussion we have had.

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    willing to cede ground to the other in face of a sufficiently convincing argument.
    Then you clearly haven't made a sufficiently convincing argument then, have you?

    Are you willing to cede ground in the face of a sufficiently convincing argument? I don't remember you ever changing your mind "on any discussion we've ever had".
    Last edited by Akar; December 07, 2020 at 03:30 AM.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Then you clearly haven't made a sufficiently convincing argument then, have you?

    Are you willing to cede ground in the face of a sufficiently convincing argument? I don't remember you ever changing your mind "on any discussion we've ever had".
    Akar,

    When it comes to the affairs of God certainly not.

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    So why do you expect others to change their viewpoint when you are unwilling to do the same? b

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    Turkafinwë's Avatar The Sick Baby Jester
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    There's the problem with internet arguments/discussions. Almost noone enters a discussion in good faith (not only on the internet but in RL as well). Opinions have become more like religious convictions where there is no fault in their reasoning. On both ends of the political spectrum they are so convinced that the other side is completely wrong and they are completely right with no middle ground to be in. I use the political spectrum because these days many personal opinions have been hijacked by political parties and ideologies and are so intertwined with them that it's almost impossible to look at them seperately. Personally I don't think it's a weakness to change your opinion because someone made a compelling argument or presented you with new evidence but I sure as hell believe the broader populace sees it like that. It's like Akar said. The main principle is that people enter a discussion in good faith and then there is a possibility to learn something and grow. I guess people are more interested in besting their opponent in rhetoric than actually learn something about something/someone else/themselves.

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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkafinwë View Post
    There's the problem with internet arguments/discussions. Almost noone enters a discussion in good faith (not only on the internet but in RL as well). Opinions have become more like religious convictions where there is no fault in their reasoning. On both ends of the political spectrum they are so convinced that the other side is completely wrong and they are completely right with no middle ground to be in. I use the political spectrum because these days many personal opinions have been hijacked by political parties and ideologies and are so intertwined with them that it's almost impossible to look at them seperately. Personally I don't think it's a weakness to change your opinion because someone made a compelling argument or presented you with new evidence but I sure as hell believe the broader populace sees it like that. It's like Akar said. The main principle is that people enter a discussion in good faith and then there is a possibility to learn something and grow. I guess people are more interested in besting their opponent in rhetoric than actually learn something about something/someone else/themselves.
    Thanks to my tuition, Akar is a now secret Christian.

    There is a difference between changing your mind and admitting that you've changed your mind.



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    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkafinwë View Post
    There's the problem with internet arguments/discussions. Almost noone enters a discussion in good faith (not only on the internet but in RL as well). Opinions have become more like religious convictions where there is no fault in their reasoning. On both ends of the political spectrum they are so convinced that the other side is completely wrong and they are completely right with no middle ground to be in. I use the political spectrum because these days many personal opinions have been hijacked by political parties and ideologies and are so intertwined with them that it's almost impossible to look at them seperately. Personally I don't think it's a weakness to change your opinion because someone made a compelling argument or presented you with new evidence but I sure as hell believe the broader populace sees it like that. It's like Akar said. The main principle is that people enter a discussion in good faith and then there is a possibility to learn something and grow. I guess people are more interested in besting their opponent in rhetoric than actually learn something about something/someone else/themselves.
    Pretty much this, bolding is mine.

    I very much dislike debating for this very reason, unless someone debates for the sake of it (which might well be a cultural thing, as the OP himself hinted) I don't see the logic of trying to convince someone else with my ideas/positions. If asked, I give my opinion and move on; if indirectly involved in an argument/discussion, I try to step out of it unharmed, if possible.. since I hate being non efficient, debating is not for me by definition. Mind you, I'm involved in local politics where I live, but that's the most I'll get into it: I mean, when it's local you can reasonably stay out of rhetoric and focus on practical stuff, which is what I do actually.

    As a grown up man, basing on my experience as a business man, father, public admin and what's not, I consider being able to change your mind as a part of the evolution/growing process as individual; in other words those who cannot change their mind are definitely doing themselves a damage.. not a case I guess than more than often inability to change position/opinion is linked with pride and, sometimes, with ignorance.
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Do you see the ability to change your mind a personal strength or a weakness?
    A functioning mind is capable of change. A mind that cannot be changed is essentially hard wired, basically a simple animal or a machine.

    I recently bought a bottle of whisky I never thought about buying before because I saw it in a tweet. Its not bad but the process of me buying it wasn't characterised by strength or intelligence: previously I had a prejudice against whisky distilled in my city, and I changed because some kids made a song based on a shallowfaked press conference mashup of the state premier. So strong, much autonomous.

    Big picture if you can't change your mind you're a dead duck. Slightly smaller picture you can change people's minds for fun and profit, so a certain rhetorical capacity (to impose change on others and resist or at least filter change imposed by others on you) serves individuals and societies well.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    and when you see others change their mind do you treat it as a strength or weakness in them?
    Depends on the context. If I am in a ****-talking session I may set myself a goal like getting someone to admit Trump did a good thing. it helps young people to experience a bit of forceful or persuasive discussion. For practical reasons it will help them detect when they are being sold a pup. Mrs Cyclops teaches them that its worth changing your mind sometimes for a bit of peace and quiet.

    Emotionally I can admire a person so doggedly committed to their idea they die for it, but my ancestors bequeathed me life to do with as I will. I try to respect them by living and passing on life, and respect myself by living as I wish to. I want to give Cyclops Jnr and my step kids the same blessing I have been given: the ability to change my own mind, or not, as I wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    When I look back through my posts over the years, I can see a hardening on some issues, and completely changed perspectives on others.
    Sorry to quote our of order but this requires a separate response. I believe that guy is not you. That guy is dead. You are essentially his descendant. Respect your ancestry, but you are not your ancestor. Its not weakness to evolve and change, and rigidity in one context can be fragility in another.

    In another respect you are also not yourself but a fragment of your community: cells interlinked. Your responses change because the body you are a part of have changed. Your mind changes without you noticing and I argue that's because its not your mind, its ours.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Anyone that's married will know that changing one's mind is part and parcel of being married. As a husband I am accused of being all sorts of things at any time simply because the older one gets the more set in one's ways life becomes. Does it bother me that I give in on certain situations? Not in the least but there is one aspect of me that my sons, daughter and wifie know and understand and that is my belief in God. Jump over to the other side of the fence and discover that whether there is a God or not, they are just not interested so changing their minds is an impossiblity unless God works on their hearts just as I have experienced by what is written. So yes, I change my mind about many things for many reasons yet there is one thing about me that is sacrosant.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    There's nothing wrong with a mind change built on evidence that appeals to your logic, especially if there's reason to assume it will help your ends or happiness going forwards. When it is prone to whimsical change, it becomes a problem. I've been prone to that often, and as a result it's ultimately been a weakness in my life even as I've striven to use it for strength. I like to think I've reached a point where the weak portion is at least mostly curbed. But even in the same individual, the question can be answered both ways. My changeability has given me quite a bit of room to allow new thoughts and ideas. It cripples when those ideas become the flavor of the moment or the month, at the cost of what came before built on simplistic reasoning.

    Something in the middle I imagine is the best balance. As far as larger scale things in life, I'd say I'm unusually flexible on 'mid level' things - matters of politics I tend to be flexible on because of how damn murky they are in the first place. I can only go by the evidence I have the time to assess logically, and it results in me both flip flopping and refusing to commit in many respects. Ie, I couldn't tell you what the ideal system of governance would be because I'm too settled in how things can be done well or poorly with the same people, different system. I can only tell you what's more likely to collapse in my mind given the context. For fundamentals I am reliably much more rigid if I haven't dismissed them as too murky to 'judge'.

    In regards to online discussion, I think Turk and Flinn sum things up nicely. You could write a blog series on the many, many nuances of devil's advocacy, changing your mind, distinctions, etc... and at the end of the day it all only goes so far, if it even had a chance.

  16. #16
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    o yes, I change my mind about many things for many reasons yet there is one thing about me that is sacrosant.
    So, again, why do you expect others to change their viewpoint when you are unwilling to do the same?

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  17. #17
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Akar,

    I don't expect anyone to agree with me unless they themselves are born again. If I speak of the Gospel that's all I can do as the rest is up to God. That's what is written and unsurprisingly what happens when one speaks to unbelievers.

  18. #18
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    On changing one's mind:
    The stronger people identify with an idea or belief the higher the personal, emotional cost of changing or abandoning it. As with drug dependency, it requires strength to kick the habit, but it is better not to become addicted to begin with.

    On the nature of debate:
    Debate usually is a charade: we pretend to play a game by certain rules and declare that whoever wins can lay claim to the truth. In reality very few debates are grounded in shared axiomas and the apparent validity of arguments depends less on their logical rigor than on the axiomatic views held by the observer. As for debates on science, unless the participants are the world's leading experts, the 'winner' is at best the least inexpert of the participants. For all that it is considered a debating 'fallacy' we would in most debates be better of appealing to authority.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  19. #19

    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Hence why I don't bother getting into Internet debates anymore. It's rare to come across a person online who is genuinely open-minded and interested in a good-faith conversation.
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  20. #20
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Changing your mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Holding this community in contempt by repeatedly accusing it of being closed-minded, dishonest, petty and irrelevant is disrespectful. The attempt to retreat behind a wall of false pieties and sanctimony when challenged on these provocative accusations is nothing if not predictable.
    Ironically... this is heading back to one of the premises of the OP. To explore our ability to change our opinions based on online debates.

    I think there are too many disincentives for us to change our opinions when debating online. If we find our selves on the wrong side of a debate it is really easy to hide behind our ego. To throw our toys down and walk away from the conversation rather than seriously question our own position on a subject, or to continue to exercise our ability to reframe a conversation to best support our desired view, rather than come to a common understanding of a premise to debate around.
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