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Thread: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

  1. #1

    Default Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    I don't have much experience using skirmisher cav in M2, is this an engine issue? I noticed that the missile stats for these units are reasonably high, but the javelins very rarely cause casualties. Mostly I use them to tie up the enemy cav in melee.

    Recently one of my client kings in North Africa was attacked and I wanted to confirm. I had several units of local skirmisher cav, several units of foot archers, a unit of slingers and a couple of units of leftover infantry from Italy. The enemy was almost all skirmisher cav and I decided not to engage in melee. The enemy's skirmisher cav stupidly bunched up into a ball, making them a good target for missiles. My archer units got from 90-125 kills, and my skirmisher cav units got around 20-30. This was a long battle that ran about 3/4 of the way through my time. In a "normal" battle where the skirmisher cav are supporting infantry, they would get next to no kills with their javelins.

  2. #2
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    Where are you attacking from? Javelins are most effective from behind, or at least in the unshielded flank.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    Hmm, that's a good thing to note that I didn't consider. My cav units were in a semi-circle around theirs (not bunched into a single mass like theirs) but I do think they were focused more on my cav because they were closer, so the archers would definitely have had an advantage there. I dunno, maybe my perception is wrong and I should stop using them so much for melee

  4. #4

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Where are you attacking from? Javelins are most effective from behind, or at least in the unshielded flank.
    It makes a difference which flank I attack from?! I never thought that the tactical modelling is that detailed. Thank you for that information, QS.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    M2TW is old, but old games can have a surprising amount of detail. Units have a shield value that only protects them from the front. There are also height and terrain advantages, I once won a battle I thought unwinnable because my enemy had to scale a mountain to attack me.

    That being said, it does seem like skirmisher cav is mostly there to pad out numbers of horse, provide opportunities for flanking attacks on the cheap, and hopefully keep the powerful enemy units distracted.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    There is no unshielded flank in M2TW, that was only back in RTW.

    In M2TW:K, both flanks offer 50% of the shield protection. You can test it out easily.

    Source:
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post11406767
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?536361-Shields&p=11417460&viewfull=1#post11417460

    This could be a very good thing to ask to the memory editing project, as it would very likely involve tweaking a small value in the hardcoded files of the game. If this was feasible to do, then we could restore how shields worked in RTW to the M2TW engine.
    Last edited by Hellenikon; November 29, 2020 at 09:58 AM.

  7. #7
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    I thought it was the same in M2TW; that's a weird thing for CA to opt to downgrade between engines.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    There is no unshielded flank in M2TW, that was only back in RTW.

    [...]

    This could be a very good thing to ask to the memory editing project, as it would very likely involve tweaking a small value in the hardcoded files of the game. If this was feasible to do, then we could restore how shields worked in RTW to the M2TW engine.
    Thank you for the information. Are you going to ask?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    I thought it was the same in M2TW; that's a weird thing for CA to opt to downgrade between engines.
    The programming stuff that I work with does not relate to game development in any meaningful way, so it is difficult to understand albeit fascinating. Could it be oversight and reverting back to an earlier code inadvertently? It is hard to imagine that there would be a significant computational cost. Of course, one would have to take into account whether the unit has a shield to begin with.
    == El Burrito Senoro ==

  9. #9

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    I can't believe people still believe that "unshielded flank" stuff in 2020. Especially someone like QS...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    The first thing I do when coming back for a game of EB2 is edit the edu and increase the attack values of all light javelin units. Without it they are useless from the front, which is how they were historically used.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    The first thing I do when coming back for a game of EB2 is edit the edu and increase the attack values of all light javelin units. Without it they are useless from the front, which is how they were historically used.
    Also increase their Range so they actually don't get in a fight right away. YES it may look weird to see them throw and hit targets from unrealistic ranges such as 100 ft + but its not like the engine can represent their true usage of Attacking Foragers/ and hiding in trees/ forest.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Skirmisher cav not very good at skirmishing?

    Quote Originally Posted by moisesjns View Post
    Also increase their Range so they actually don't get in a fight right away.
    I might increase it slightly. The javelin throwing animation particularly for infantry is very awkward and leaves the units totally exposed. It's like having to line up a cavalry charge.

    I am surprised that javelins haven't received a general buff over the years. The light javelins have the same attack value as archers, at least the last time I checked. If you can get archers there is little reason to have clunky foot skirmishers besides roleplay. Skirmisher cavalry are completely outclassed by horse archers, so no reason to get any if you have access to the latter. Even if you don't, I never use them. Too much micro for negligible effect.

    It's a while since I played but I remember last time I upped all of the units that have a 7 javelin value to 9, and the units that have 9 to 11 I think. Nothing too major. I left the heavy javelins as they are. Even at that they didn't seem to do much with the javelins.

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