The last few days of downtime

[Garbarsardar]

Who did you get the site from Garb?

imb39

(and the Russian mafia)

[Aexodus]

Did Imb start the site? Oh wait that was Paul or something.

[Akar]

Mostly the Russian mob though.

[Flinn]

imb39

(and the Russian mafia)

[Cookiegod]

Of course, traffic is dwindling. But here is the trade off paradox - traffic to TW forums is dwindling but because of Warhammer, Total War is as popular as ever.

I'm more than aware that CA hasn't visited here in a very long time, again, something that needs to be explored.

Keep in mind TWC and TW Org still bring an estimate 3-5 million views a year. That's still a LOT of people no matter how you spin it.

That's a bit of a superficial look at it though. The direction TW games have taken have without doubt played the biggest role in bringing this site down. Games have become arcadier, making discussion of strategies etc. pointless. Multiplayer is also all but gone. TW did some good attempts in that direction with Shogun 2, only to then immediately blow it with Arena.

And then the nondistribution of modding tools to further their own DLC's. I like the R2TW and Attila DLC's, but there's no doubt modders would have made the same, but better and on a grander scale if given the chance.

And this is unsolvable by TWC. It could maybe be mitigated by restructuring the main forum page layout and giving non TW strategy games a bigger presence, as well as all that other stuff that has a draw on users. This was already done for the D&D and could be done for other stuff as well.

[mikahawkins1]

Is this the first time this happened?

[Leonardo]

Is this the first time this happened?

No. It is not the first time.

[Basileos Leandros I]

That's a bit of a superficial look at it though. The direction TW games have taken have without doubt played the biggest role in bringing this site down. Games have become arcadier, making discussion of strategies etc. pointless. Multiplayer is also all but gone. TW did some good attempts in that direction with Shogun 2, only to then immediately blow it with Arena.

And then the nondistribution of modding tools to further their own DLC's. I like the R2TW and Attila DLC's, but there's no doubt modders would have made the same, but better and on a grander scale if given the chance.

And this is unsolvable by TWC. It could maybe be mitigated by restructuring the main forum page layout and giving non TW strategy games a bigger presence, as well as all that other stuff that has a draw on users. This was already done for the D&D and could be done for other stuff as well.

Not quite - no matter how much a lot of us older guards like to say that TW is only TW if it's historical, or to discount the newer TW titles altogether, it's still part of the Total War franchise. TWC should draw the people who also like Warhammer, not just modding and the historical titles.

Let's not try and go around it, Warhammer & fantasy is Total War's future. The "restrictions" imposed by historical settings can be easily taken out with fantasy themes and I would 100% expect something like Lord of the Rings Total War in the future. Warhammer TW was a mind blowing commercial success - to the point where Total War might actually consider going fully fantasy.

This is Total War Center, this place in my view should focus on all TW's. Our focus in Total War as a strategy series. Subtly ignoring Warhammer turns us into reverse Total War Reddit, which subtly ignores almost everything non related to Warhammer. There's a studio in Sofia, BG, that is entirely dedicated pretty much to create DLC's for Total War while the bulk of the team focuses on Warhammer 3 and the subsequent projects.

Whether we like it or not, Total War has shifted from primary historical focus because Warhammer TW has been such an enormous commercial success.

And if TW forums wish to survive / grow, we need to adapt!

[Flinn]

That's a bit of a superficial look at it though. The direction TW games have taken have without doubt played the biggest role in bringing this site down. Games have become arcadier, making discussion of strategies etc. pointless. Multiplayer is also all but gone. TW did some good attempts in that direction with Shogun 2, only to then immediately blow it with Arena.

And then the nondistribution of modding tools to further their own DLC's. I like the R2TW and Attila DLC's, but there's no doubt modders would have made the same, but better and on a grander scale if given the chance.

And this is unsolvable by TWC. It could maybe be mitigated by restructuring the main forum page layout and giving non TW strategy games a bigger presence, as well as all that other stuff that has a draw on users. This was already done for the D&D and could be done for other stuff as well.

Pretty much this. If TWC managed to maintain a certain number of members is because of the D&D, Content and few other areas. Modding, strategy and game discussions have decreased dramatically and steadily over the past 8 years since the release of Rome 2, for the reasons you very well outlined yourself.

Not quite - no matter how much a lot of us older guards like to say that TW is only TW if it's historical, or to discount the newer TW titles altogether, it's still part of the Total War franchise. TWC should draw the people who also like Warhammer, not just modding and the historical titles.

Let's not try and go around it, Warhammer & fantasy is Total War's future. The "restrictions" imposed by historical settings can be easily taken out with fantasy themes and I would 100% expect something like Lord of the Rings Total War in the future. Warhammer TW was a mind blowing commercial success - to the point where Total War might actually consider going fully fantasy.

This is Total War Center, this place in my view should focus on all TW's. Our focus in Total War as a strategy series. Subtly ignoring Warhammer turns us into reverse Total War Reddit, which subtly ignores almost everything non related to Warhammer. There's a studio in Sofia, BG, that is entirely dedicated pretty much to create DLC's for Total War while the bulk of the team focuses on Warhammer 3 and the subsequent projects.

Whether we like it or not, Total War has shifted from primary historical focus because Warhammer TW has been such an enormous commercial success.

And if TW forums wish to survive / grow, we need to adapt!

Warhammer hasn't been ignored my friend. The same goes with Arena and any other later title, all of them got a place at TWC with their own forum, both for discussion and modding; they also got full Content coverage (for Warhammer we had a preview and a review for both 1 & 2, no other game got a similar coverage!; we also dedicated one edition of the Modding Awards to Warhammer!).. I was Director of the ES at the time, so I know well what I'm talking about (see here for reference) and I was as well in charge for the Modding Awards (I'm still) and believe me TWC did all that could, at every level of the active Hex/Staff, to promote Warhammer and include it... damn now that I think about this I was also the assigned Moderator to the Warhammer forum here at TWC at the time of the release of the game and it was a pain to prevent flames and such.. it was not TWC, but the usual buyers of TW games that were mad at CA for having moved to fantasy title (many of the were still very much angry because of Rome 2).

Truth be told, I personally feel much the "fail" related to Warhammer here at TWC, but we could not do anything more that what we did IMO. People dissatisfied with the new course taken by CA/SEGA stopped buying TW titles and so also stopped visiting TWC, new users that approached TW titles because of Warhammer didn't even bother to come at TWC, they don't need to, because they can find all that they need at Steam, included modding and the very limited game discussion as they offer very little strategy and there's nothing to discuss about improving the game since there's no real modding and CA/SEGA doesn't give a crap about what people ask in terms of game improvement (like instead modders do).

And finally, TWC is a fan site, kept alive by the work of volunteers, included in the Hex; we recently had a similar discussion internally in the Staff, and I'll tell here what I already told there: primary policy changes are GED's territory, exclusively, and none of us has the power to change arbitrarily things like how to manage the Patreon links or main policies about modding permissions, etc. All that we can do is to refine those rules, and that we did also recently with the modding permissions related to the unreachable modding teams that have retired, for instance. My personal belief, as a business man, is that the only way for TWC to "adapt" as you say, would be to change completely its nature, to became a real business activity, something again which is possible only if GED decides to (honestly, not even in the wildest dreams, IMO).

ps We have discussed the causes of TWC decline in terms of activity so many times that it became annoying to have to say the same things over and over again, so I'll put it clearly here: without GED active there's nothing we can do more than what we are doing, I've been in Staff and Hex long enough to say this without any hesitation.

[Jadli]

Food for thought

[Derc]

You either live long enough to die a hero or you live long enough to become a chicken sandwich. Or something like that.

[Sir Adrian]

Truth be told, I personally feel much the "fail" related to Warhammer here at TWC, but we could not do anything more that what we did IMO. People dissatisfied with the new course taken by CA/SEGA stopped buying TW titles and so also stopped visiting TWC, new users that approached TW titles because of Warhammer didn't even bother to come at TWC, they don't need to, because they can find all that they need at Steam, included modding and the very limited game discussion as they offer very little strategy and there's nothing to discuss about improving the game since there's no real modding and CA/SEGA doesn't give a crap about what people ask in terms of game improvement (like instead modders do).

The problem was the general lack of interest in the franchise on TWC and a lack of hyping the Warhammer universe by staff. Warhammer fans have always gone to places like DakkaDakka or warhammer-empire and most of the discussions about TW:WH were held there rather than here.

I remember talking to the other librarians in the Scriptorium (or librarian to be more precise), back when Warhammer had just come out, and the year after, that we never saw even the smallest guide to modding Warhammer or a Warhammer review or something aside for Sebidee's guide (bless his Guiness heart). Nothing. We even polled a few Scriptorium Competition regulars about making Warhammer the competition theme when Darren gifted us a couple of White Dwarf DLC keys to hand out as a prize, and as far as I rembmer there was 0 interest in the topic.

[Basileos Leandros I]

That is my point precisely - Warhammer fans did not come here at all, and while most TWC members are TW historical fans, maybe we should rethink the strategy a bit.

Fantasy is the future for TW, no going back now to be honest.

[Flinn]

... and a lack of hyping the Warhammer universe by staff.

I'm curious, in your opinion, what we should have done more than what we did?

That is my point precisely - Warhammer fans did not come here at all, and while most TWC members are TW historical fans, maybe we should rethink the strategy a bit.

I'll be glad to listen about any possible different strategy

[Sir Adrian]

Short term: Better PR, right now it's 0. Medium term: (Could have done) Start building a Warhammer community on the site, push the site as a place to talk about Warhammer. Of course, hindsight is 20-20. (Can still do) Clean up the site's image - right now if you mention TWC on the TW subreddit or other fora in general the reactions will be mostly negative because of the mudpit and because of the shitfest that was the Rome II section at launch and a bunch of other reasons I won't go into right now. Just go ask about TWC on the TW reddit.

What you can do, if you get GED to approve, is to start progressively migrating the site from a Total War exclusive site to a more general wargaming or strategy gaming site. CA is not coming back to this place, ever. Alternatively, there is one more WH game, and it will most definely be followed by another fantasy franchise (hoping for Harry Potter: Total War), you can start preparing for that by building a comunity centered around whatever the new game will be.

[Flinn]

Honestly what you propose has little to do with "promoting" Warhammer and much to do with overhauling what TWC is; as I said above, unless GED is back, this is far beyond our powers. I wish to remind you that this is a fan site, what you propose is a much more professional approach (see me mentioning about it becoming a business, above). None of the actual Hex or staffer ever joined the Staff with the intent to do anything else than a voluntary work, with no second goals than that of enjoying the time spent on the site.

I see where you are coming from, I'm in the business since more than 15 years, but IMO this is not feasible at TWC as a fan site.. if GED will be back and will decide to restructure the site and its purposes, then maybe it will be another story.. but then I really doubt that the actual structure of the Hex and Staff will be kept.. however we are venturing into pure speculation here, and in any case I remain my case about the fact that we did all that we could with what we have (because that's actually what we do since like 6 years).

thanks for your input in any case

[Basileos Leandros I]

And that's the whole gist of it, we need a significant TWC overhaul. Hence why maybe a fresh new perspective / ownership can be good.

Even something of a Council of Elders who have full control or share the ownership can work.

If we see TWC as a business, TWC can be a very good amount of money to sustain itself, develop itself and maybe bring a small profit to cover the initial investment. It has enough views to grow sustainably.

[Sir Adrian]

Honestly what you propose has little to do with "promoting" Warhammer and much to do with overhauling what TWC is;

How does building a Warhammer community on the forum, so that discussions about WH:TW stay here have nothing to do with promoting warhammer? There was no measure taken by site administration to ecourage or increase discussion. It was business as usual, while expeting things to be different.

The second part of what I propose, namely working ahead of time to build a community for the next fantasy setting here on the forum, can be done without GED - all you need to do is waint until the next setting is revealed and start hyping up the forum as the place to talk about it by pushing hard on facebook, reddit, discord that TWC is the place where you can gather and discuss X universe.

Last time a TWC staffer interacted with the total war reddit (as far as I know) was in 2016-17 when Hader posted site news on the official sub. Site admins have a special tag on the official sub and usually tend to get stickied for a couple of days, but nobody is using those priviledges to promote TWC. Why? That should be the main priority of the news team, not posting stuff on a page nobody visits anyway.

Spam the official TW reddit, spam the facebook groups, spam spam spam until you get banned, then make an alt and spam some more. You don't need GED for that. You don't need GED to hold competitions and multiplayer tournaments. You don't need GED to have youtubers review mods developed on TWC. There is a lot of stuff you can do with the reasources you do have.

In short raise awareness. Right know most of the young'uns know TWC sucks because Mandalore and some other youtuber whose name I don't remember said so in their youtube review of TW:WH2. And you admins do nothing.


And do something about the mudpit, because right now it's less a place to talk and more of a place to snipe at other people and generally post nonsense. The mudpit is one of the main reasons that drove people away.

[Basileos Leandros I]

TWC has official tags on the TW Reddit? Is this true?

[Sir Adrian]

Yes, TWC administrator. Right next to Hader's name.