PRE-POWDER ARTILLERY - very limited and only for player

[Nemesis2345]

Just to clear up a point: Both rams and ladders can be used infinite times, but rams have to be picked up again, and ladders cannot be reused when already put on the wall, so you have to save up some for the 2nd wall (By the way, I've always thought that a third wall - On citadels in M2TW- sounds and looks a bit excessive, does anybody know if it's realistic or not?).

Ladders can be picked up again using ALT + CLICK ( the same way you order missile infantry to go melee even if they did not use their ammo).

[removeduser_28376423423]

Either you've got un-realistic trebuchets brinding down the walls, or un-realistic re-use of the ladders.
I'd go for the second option.

If we're talking about them trebuchets damaging whole walls yes, I totally, agree. Now, thinking it again I think you could make a backup, then remove them, and include both options for future versions or patches, as it has already been mentioned. But I insist that leaving the door open for a future solution would be deeply appreciated -This thread- (In the end they also affect morale, they can throw rotten cows and the fire projectiles also have a big morale hit, that's kind of realistic, so the dream -IMO- would be that they just stand outside like the rest of the siege equipment and a unit can take them and fire, I get it won't happen anytime soon but still).

Ladders can be picked up again using ALT + CLICK ( the same way you order missile infantry to go melee even if they did not use their ammo).

I wasn't aware, thanks.

[Jurand of Cracow]

If we're talking about them trebuchets damaging whole walls yes, I totally, agree. Now, thinking it again I think you could make a backup, then remove them, and include both options for future versions or patches, as it has already been mentioned. But I insist that leaving the door open for a future solution would be deeply appreciated -This thread- (In the end they also affect morale, they can throw rotten cows and the fire projectiles also have a big morale hit, that's kind of realistic, so the dream -IMO- would be that they just stand outside like the rest of the siege equipment and a unit can take them and fire, I get it won't happen anytime soon but still).

Yes, I think it's the way to go. Trebuchets and mangonels can stay in the EDU, we keep for the moment the decision whether they stay or not open, the only thing I've changed in the future EDB is to remove the possibility of recruitment of these two kinds of weapons by the AI factions because of this totally stupid use of this weapon in the field battle.

Have a look at this clip: Matt Easton on the siege equipment.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

EDIT: MY CONCLUSIONS WHAT TO DO NEXT

There're three types of engines in the SSHIP (and the Med2 engine in general):
- siege equipment,
- non-powder artillery,
- powder artillery.

Pre-powder artillery in the SSHIP
- ballistas and catapults removed (long time ago).
- trebuchets and mangonels (T&M) recruitable from SiegeWorks only by the player (for 098)
- movement allowance 50% of infantry (for 098, currently 85%).


Options for further changes:
I. Do nothing (problems: (1) T&M in the field armies non-realistic; (2) ability to storm a settlement instantly non-realistic)
II. Remove entirely (problems: (1) many players would like to have T&M; (2): these are not fantasy units, they were present on a battlefield, (3): heavy horse-using factions may find it difficult to take settlements from the player (no problem for autoresolve, though).
III. Drastically lower movement points (problems: (1) it'd affect also powder artillery, (2) difficult for those heavy horse-using factions)
IV. Recruitment as mercenaries (problem: (1) T&M are not historical in Med2 engine way; (2) requires a lot of work)

Potential modding:

[A]
Recruiting pre-powder siege weapons as mercenaries recruitable only for an assault:
-- the goal is to prevent the player from having in a field army.
• EDB: Remove recruitment of T&M from SiegeWorks building.
• EDA: Modify SiegeEngineer ancillary:
1. The only bonus is to provide possibility to recruit T&M.
2. May be acquired only by a general with NaturalMilitarySkills from SiegeWorks.
3. Non-transferable.
• Script:
1. Disbandment script of all T&M after Player's turn (FactionTurnEnd + is_player).
2. Declare 199 (or less) eventcounters besieged_settlementXYZ.
3. Set all counters to 0.
4. Increase trigger if: 1. player's turn, 2. settlement is besieged, 3. general has a SiegeEngineer.
• Descr_mercenaries
1. Create 199 mercenary pools.
2. Each event_counter 1 enables recruitment of mercenary unit T&M in the relevant province.
3. Set the price of a unit.

How it would work:
1 an army begins a siege, the general has ancillary SiegeEngineer,
2 all previously present T&M are disbanded,
3 counter for all provinces set to 0,
4 counter for a province set to 1,
5 before the next turn in the descr_mercenaries recruitment of a T/M is activated in the province with a besieged settlement,
6 the player can buy T/M in this province (not only the besieged army, but any army in this province - but this is not a big problem)
7 the players storms the settlement or continues the siege
2 T&M are disbanded.

[B]
Script solving the problem of the cavalry-based armies unable to siege a settlement defended by the player. This can be done:
(B1) script adding T&M to such armies
(B2) script breaking down walls if such an army attacks (Erken ideas for EBII - ask Lusitanio ;-)

[Navajo Joe]

JOC,

I see your point in regards to destruction of the walls, they were used more of terror weapon, by flinging dead animal and fireballs into the defending settlement, which would be an important reason to take a unit along or recruit as a Merc.

My concern is that the Mongols will arrive at a player defended settlement, without Trebs and have very little change of getting into the settlement. A large part of a Mongol army are horsemen, who obviously are unable to scale a wall or break a door, so you will need to revisit the units in a Mongol army and swap some mounted units for non-mounted units, so they have half a chance of taking the walls. I guess this applies to any AI faction that uses a lot of mounted units.

Cheers
NJ

[Jurand of Cracow]

My concern is that the Mongols will arrive at a player defended settlement, without Trebs and have very little change of getting into the settlement. A large part of a Mongol army are horsemen, who obviously are unable to scale a wall or break a door, so you will need to revisit the units in a Mongol army and swap some mounted units for non-mounted units, so they have half a chance of taking the walls. I guess this applies to any AI faction that uses a lot of mounted units.

Very good observations! Thanks, Navajo, share more of your experience with us!

[Lusitanio]

You could also use Erken ideas for his EBII submod, in which a script breaks the walls of a settlement when its under siege (only has some chances of actually destroying it) and thus the AI can storm the settlement which can simulate the siege work.

[Dekhatres]

^ probably the best available solution

[lequintal69]

It has ALWAYS been irritating to me. Surprised this topic wasnt raised a lot before!

Even though siege engines can be fun on ground battles, I would also remove them if possible. They are way too unhistorical, and more importantly, powerful (read: abused by players) on the battlefield.

Not sure about game limitations in that regard, but the dream for me would be to have them for SOME sieges ONLY. Maybe with siege engineer ancillary as you said (but even if that was possible, how would AI get it?)

Or could it be linked to a trait? aka you need the "besieging" trait to be able to use them (forcing you to siege for atleaqt 1 turn) ?

[removeduser_28376423423]

Or could it be linked to a trait? aka you need the "besieging" trait to be able to use them (forcing you to siege for atleaqt 1 turn) ?

In a dream world, siege engineer ancillary + besieging trait (currently included) unlocks trebuchet in siege equipment build panel...

Lusitanio reminded me of RTW sappers, I agree with him and Dekhatres.

[Jurand of Cracow]

In a dream world, siege engineer ancillary + besieging trait (currently included) unlocks trebuchet in siege equipment build panel...

I don't think it's possible to make them appear in the siege equipment (there's gear, not units, and the T&M are units).
However, I've described previously a clear way for a modder how make the same effect: T&M recruitable only if there's a siege in the province, the player would have to pay for them (price defined in the descr_mercenary), and if has bought them, he's to make an assault.
It is very easily moddable to make T&M appear as mercenaries only after a few turns, and to make this time dependent on many factors, eg. the besieger trait or an ancillary.

[Dekhatres]

i've looked a bit into that script, seems the way it works is it labels all the walls then it destroys them randomly, which is fine for cities but i wonder how well it works for citadels

how well would the AI handle it if there was a breach on the 2nd wall but not on the 1st or 3rd, it also kind of dosent make sense to have first wall layer intact and other damaged

the script is pretty big too, maybe there's already ways to solve these issues dunno, i still think it's likely the best solution

[kostic]

I personally have no idea how to proceed with scripts, but the idea of ​​JOC, if it works, sounds great to me !
Animating trebuchets is really a beautiful thing with M2TW. It would be a shame to remove them completely in my opinion.
Can they be used only to lower the morale of the besieged ?

[Jurand of Cracow]

I personally have no idea how to proceed with scripts, but the idea of ​​JOC, if it works, sounds great to me !
Animating trebuchets is really a beautiful thing with M2TW. It would be a shame to remove them completely in my opinion.
Can they be used only to lower the morale of the besieged ?

I imagine it would be possible with the script but I haven't done it yet.

You know my opinion: at the moment the situation (T&M recruitable only by the player, movement range 50% of the infantry armies) is acceptable.
Making changes would require much work of a moder. I have other things to do in the SSHIP and I don't think this area would be matter of my modding soon. Maybe when working on the siege issues.
If anybody would make a minimod, it'd be great and maybe would be included in the SSHIP.

[kostic]

Yes. The current solution suits me well too.

[Steward Denethor II]

I think cutting them is probably best, it is a shame but they are impossible to balance properly and historically. I don't really like the idea of making a unit player only, that seems unfair to me.

If it was possible to make Trebuchets able to be built by a besieging army like Rams/Ladders/Towers that would be best, but it is probably not possible.