PRE-POWDER ARTILLERY - very limited and only for player

[Jurand of Cracow]

Guys,
in the recent patch E, I've updated the SiegeWorks building as far as the units are concerned (version as of 2020):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  levels siege_works  {
    siege_works city requires factions { middle_eastern, byzantium, jerusalem, } or factions { northern_european, eastern_european, serbia, georgia, southern_european, } and event_counter FIRST_WINDMILL 1 and building_present_min_level logging_camp carpenter
    {
      convert_to 0
      capability
      {     
; TREBUCHETS PLAYER
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { jerusalem, }
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { pisa, venice, papal_states, sicily, }
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, }
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { england, france, hre, } and event_counter first_rudder 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { scotland, } and event_counter FIRST_SCOTTISH_UPRISING 1 or event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1 
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { denmark, norway, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { lithuania, } and event_counter MINDAUGAS 1
 
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { byzantium, }
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { georgia, } and event_counter GEORGIAN_GOLDEN_AGE 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { serbia, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { russia, kievan_rus, } and event_counter EUPHROSYNE 1

        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and event_counter the_mongols_emerge 1
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { moors, }
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { egypt, abbasid, turks, rum, zengid, }
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { mongols, }

; TREBUCHETS AI VERY HARD
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { jerusalem, } and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { pisa, venice, papal_states, sicily, } and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { england, france, hre, } and event_counter first_rudder 1  and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { scotland, } and event_counter FIRST_SCOTTISH_UPRISING 1 or event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1  and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { denmark, norway, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { lithuania, } and event_counter MINDAUGAS 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4
 
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { byzantium, } and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { georgia, } and event_counter GEORGIAN_GOLDEN_AGE 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { serbia, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { russia, kievan_rus, } and event_counter EUPHROSYNE 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4


        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and event_counter the_mongols_emerge 1 and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { moors, } and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { egypt, abbasid, turks, rum, zengid, } and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { mongols, } and event_counter is_the_ai 4
        
; MANGONELS
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { pisa, venice, papal_states, sicily, jerusalem, } and event_counter PRIVILEGIUM 1        
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1    
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { norway, denmark, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1    
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { england, france, hre, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1        
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { scotland, } and event_counter FIRST_SCOTTISH_UPRISING 1 or event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { poland, hungary, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1
;        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { lithuania, } and event_counter MINDAUGAS 1                ; after changes in EDU: Lithuania should have access
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and event_counter the_mongols_emerge 1
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { byzantium, }
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { georgia, serbia, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { egypt, abbasid, turks, rum, moors, zengid, cumans, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1

Irrespectively of the question when and for which factions the pre-powder artillery units should be available, I wonder if Trebuchets and Mangonels should be part any non-sieging army. As far as I know, the siege weapons were built on the spot of a siege. Such artillery was not used in the field battles in the Middle Ages (or was it?).

So I got an idea to make these weapons purely Mercenary forces, set their movement points to 0 and make it available only for the player, with moderate recruitment price and exorbitant upkeep. The outcome should be: the player recruits them only during a siege, and then disbands (so that they don't became garrison forces).

My questions are:
- should we try to do it?
- is it possible to set movement points of a unit in a separate way? Is it possible to set it 0 (or just 1)?

EDIT: see entry #23 for some answers and the direction we're heading.

Here is the code for version 098 as of May 2022:

building castle_siege{
  convert_to siege
  levels c_siege_works
  {
    c_siege_works castle requires event_counter is_the_player 1 and factions { middle_eastern, byzantium, jerusalem, } or factions { all, } and event_counter first_rudder 1
    {
      convert_to 0
      capability
      {
; TREBUCHETS
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { jerusalem, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { pisa, venice, papal_states, sicily, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { england, france, hre, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter first_rudder 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { scotland, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter SCOTLAND_FIRST_UPRISING 1 or event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1 
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { denmark, norway, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { lithuania, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter LITHUANIA3_MINDAUGAS 1
 
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { byzantium, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { georgia, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter GEORGIAN2_GOLDEN_AGE 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { serbia, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
        recruit_pool "NE Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { russia, kievan_rus, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter EUPHROSYNE 1


        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter the_mongols_emerge 1
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { moors, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { egypt, abbasid, turks, rum, zengid, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
        recruit_pool "ME Trebuchet"  0.5  0.09  2  0  requires factions { mongols, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
	
; MANGONELS
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { pisa, venice, papal_states, sicily, jerusalem, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter EDUCATION_PRIVILEGIUM_SCHOLASTICUM 1		
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1	
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { norway, denmark, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1	
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { england, france, hre, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1		
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { scotland, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter SCOTLAND_FIRST_UPRISING 1 or event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { poland, hungary, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1
;        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { lithuania, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter LITHUANIA3_MINDAUGAS 1				; after changes in EDU: Lithuania should have access
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter the_mongols_emerge 1
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { byzantium, } and event_counter is_the_player 1
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { georgia, serbia, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1
        recruit_pool "Mangonel"  0.5  0.06  2  0  requires factions { egypt, abbasid, turks, rum, moors, zengid, cumans, } and event_counter is_the_player 1 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1


		recruit_pool "Great Cross"  1   0.06  2  0  requires factions { jerusalem, }		
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; UPKEEP/INCOME		
		income_bonus bonus -400
      }
      material wooden
      construction  7
      cost  4750
      settlement_min city
      upgrades
      {
      }
    }
  }
  plugins
  {
  }
}

[j.a.luna]

Mmm is a interesting issue...

-but so the siege work building it would be useless and would have to be eliminated right? since they cannot be recruited from this building.

- i guess that byzantines ( roman legacy) used siege weapons as catapults, ballistas and maybe mangonels in battles
- i agree that artillery in middle ages almost was for sieges. Cannons were for sieges and also for field battles.

-And as mercenary units, would it be possible to recruit them in all parts of the campaign map? only in some? Would it take some events to unlock them?

-On the other hand, I understand that the AI will not see it using these mercenary siege units in the game and they will not be able to perform surprise attacks in the same turn (without building rams or anything, just assault).

-Note that although trebuchets were powerful weapons, it was very difficult in medieval times to destroy good stone walls with these weapons unless you concentrated all your firepower in one point with many weapons.
The most common was to besiege it by hunger or assault it with battering rams, towers and ladders with a lot of infantry.
A good fortress / big city should be reflected in the game almost as impregnable, with good defensive towers that slaughter the raiders and the ability to resist for a long time. An example would be to make the city of Constantinople almost impregnable, until the cannons are available and its walls can be destroyed.

in short it could be a good idea for the game if it is well consumed and the player uses it.

[removeduser_28376423423]

What if any army with enough troops would get them assembled in the second turn of besieging at least wooden walls, by script? Maybe the script could delete them afterwards also, would solve all isues, wouldn't it? Otherwise, I'd like it to function the way the rams, ladders and siege towers do, this way they would be proportional to the army size, without taking unit slots, but that'd probably be hard or impossible to implement, so...

In this era, I think that if the siege is prolonged, artillery would be a logical choice, but please, prove me wrong if I am.

I always thought you could pack/unpack the trebuchets, AoE2 you've let me down. Wait, what if you could recruit "packed" artillery in the siege workshop (basically carts with parts), then a script replaces it for deployed trebuchet or catapults when an army is besieging, OR defending a strategic point but has not been moved in at least a turn?

I also would like the stone walls to be much more resistant to artillery, it should be an annoyance for the men defending the walls, but making 4 holes in a thick stone wall in a couple minutes, I think it'd not be realistic.

Interesting topic nonetheless, looking forward to other ideas.

[FatRod]

I'm in full agreement with this.

Having the AI spamming trebs in field battles is not historically accurate at all.

[Jurand of Cracow]

My comments on the comments:
1. yes, spam by the AI and use in the field battles is annoying. You should not meet any trebuchet in a field army.
2. not possible to make it without taking unit slots, but this is actually not a problem - one of my goals is to discourage the player to field 20-units armies, they become player-based stacks of doom.
3. pack/unpack not possible, but perhaps it'd be possible to make with an Ancillary (if a general has a SiegeEngineer, then such a unit would be spawned if the army he leads is besieging)
4. I don't know how to change resilience to the artillery, but I recall discussions on the effectiveness of the walls in the past. Maybe here? I agree with j.a.luna, and with Sindathar that walls should not be brought down so quickly (I'd even say: at all, see my opinions here)
5. SiegeWork building could serve for another purpose or be deleted. Anyway, somewhere in the future I'd like to merge SiegeWork with CannonMaker.
6. I don't think the Byzantines used catapults in the battles.
7. Cannons entered the battlefield effectively at the beginning of 16th century (before they're just making scary sound, with no effects, they're useful for sieges from late 14th century, and decisive from the middle of 15th century)

[Dekhatres]

descr_projectile for tweaking siege weapons damage against units and walls


"walls should not be brought down so quickly" about that, i havent tested the siege AI with a "slow wall destruction" mode in a long time but the last time i did, i noticed that AI tended to bombard a certain section of a wall for some time then switching to bombard another even though no breach was created, it's like the AI expects the wall to fall after a certain amount of catapult/trebuchet projectiles have been fired at that specific part of the wall
so you end up with AI just wasting all his ammo on all walls and not creating an opening anywhere

maybe increasing the ammo of siege weapons could solve that dunno, just letting you know of this possible problem

[Jurand of Cracow]

descr_projectile for tweaking siege weapons damage against units and walls

"walls should not be brought down so quickly" about that, i havent tested the siege AI with a "slow wall destruction" mode in a long time but the last time i did, i noticed that AI tended to bombard a certain section of a wall for some time then switching to bombard another even though no breach was created, it's like the AI expects the wall to fall after a certain amount of catapult/trebuchet projectiles have been fired at that specific part of the wall
so you end up with AI just wasting all his ammo on all walls and not creating an opening anywhere

maybe increasing the ammo of siege weapons could solve that dunno, just letting you know of this possible problem

It's also why I would prefer not to give the siege weapons to the AI.
I think it should also be player who uses such weapons (plus maybe Mongols?), and these weapons would be of low efficiency. The issue of an instant siege wouldn't be so important because the AI rarely manages to relieve a siege, unless it's very close to the place.

[Hellvard]

Very good idea, I was planning to do exactly same thing in my mod Unfortunatelly player would have to disband trebuchets units manually, you can create a script that would do it automatically, but it would destroy all such units on map, so in situation, when you're besieging more than one settlement, you're loosing all of your trebs

[Jurand of Cracow]

Very good idea, I was planning to do exactly same thing in my mod Unfortunatelly player would have to disband trebuchets units manually, you can create a script that would do it automatically, but it would destroy all such units on map, so in situation, when you're besieging more than one settlement, you're loosing all of your trebs

This is actually a good idea. Each turn all trebuchets are disbanded. This means that the player would buy them only in the moment he's going to assault the walls.
What is the command to disband all that gear?

Now, I'm thinking how to make it in such a way that they would appear as mercenaries after a turn or more of sieging. One may use event counters in descr_mercenaries. But the problem is that if a siege enables recruitment, it enables it for all mercenaries on the map. Or one would make many counters. Hm....

[Nemesis2345]

In my opinion , trebuchets should be removed entirely from the game . Most sieges indeed worked with starving the settlement or using siege equipment like towers , tunnels under the walls ( rome 1 had those, m2tw you dissapoint me) and direct siege and battering ram assault.

Also yes, trebuchet stones were great against motte and bailey and wooden structures, a good stone wall would take ages to bring down even with trebs and catas.

What i suggest , remove trebuchets and catapults (i think catas are not in the mod iirc) and keep only light siege like balistas and mangonels etc. I dont find it that historical for the player to be able to march his army then immediately assault a settlement just because he as 2 units of trebs . The AI also spams trebuchets like there is no tommorow, and many times they bug out in the siege, or it takes 40 minutes for them to deplete the ammo on my walls before they actually assault the siege.

The only reason a trebuchet would make sense would be inside a settlement , as a defensive mechanism , JoC idea of 0 moving points would work this way , the siege engine would stay inside the city its made and thats that.

And in exchange, maybe buff the siege towers and ram health and make them harder to burn ??? , maybe even make them cost more siege points, so you also dont need to attack immediately the turn after unless you have a full stacked army ( this may be discussed later )

[Jurand of Cracow]

In my opinion , trebuchets should be removed entirely from the game . Most sieges indeed worked with starving the settlement or using siege equipment like towers , tunnels under the walls ( rome 1 had those, m2tw you dissapoint me) and direct siege and battering ram assault.

Also yes, trebuchet stones were great against motte and bailey and wooden structures, a good stone wall would take ages to bring down even with trebs and catas.

What i suggest , remove trebuchets and catapults (i think catas are not in the mod iirc) and keep only light siege like balistas and mangonels etc. I dont find it that historical for the player to be able to march his army then immediately assault a settlement just because he as 2 units of trebs . The AI also spams trebuchets like there is no tommorow, and many times they bug out in the siege, or it takes 40 minutes for them to deplete the ammo on my walls before they actually assault the siege.

The only reason a trebuchet would make sense would be inside a settlement , as a defensive mechanism , JoC idea of 0 moving points would work this way , the siege engine would stay inside the city its made and thats that.

And in exchange, maybe buff the siege towers and ram health and make them harder to burn ??? , maybe even make them cost more siege points, so you also dont need to attack immediately the turn after unless you have a full stacked army ( this may be discussed later )

The longer I think about this, the more I agree that "trebuchets should be removed entirely from the game". I don't think they played a defensive role either. They were only to shell the city to terrorise the population, the other way around was practically not feasible - it was not possible to aim.
The catapults are not in the game. I actually don't know if they're different from the mangonels.
The ballistas - are these in the game? There're the ribaults though.

Rams and siege towers are ok to be burnt - this should make the player to wait longer to prepare for a siege.

[j.a.luna]

The longer I think about this, the more I agree that "trebuchets should be removed entirely from the game". I don't think they played a defensive role either. They were only to shell the city to terrorise the population, the other way around was practically not feasible - it was not possible to aim.
The catapults are not in the game. I actually don't know if they're different from the mangonels.
The ballistas - are these in the game? There're the ribaults though.

Rams and siege towers are ok to be burnt - this should make the player to wait longer to prepare for a siege.

But ... trebuchets existed in the Middle Ages! Maybe they were little used and would have rather a horror effect on the inhabitants of the cities ... If you don't watch the Kingdom of Heaven movie with Saladino's epic trebuchets hahaha
Catapults and ballistae were eliminated from the game quite some time ago ...
It would be necessary to study in depth their role in the story and what can be done with them in the game.

on the other hand and speaking less historically, I love to see the trebuchets in age of empires 2 and they destroy cities in 2 minutes haha.

[Jurand of Cracow]

It'd be good to read this issue of the Medieval Magazine on this topic.

[Macaras]

Please, don't remove the trebuchets completely. In the end they were used in Medieval, and they are a impressive addition to the game, this small tasty things that make MTW2 so good. I love observing trebuchets shooting, even just for the beauty of the animation. Whatever you decide, please don't remove them completely..

[removeduser_28376423423]

Don't remove them! They're the superior siege engine!!



Just let me finish with the native voices and I learn 3ds max, import the sapper from RTW, extract the trebuchet model without the crew, limit it to 2, and make it work somehow with any unit like the rams and ladders do

[Dekhatres]

althrough in a different mod i think it applies to SSHIP too, i've played for about 2-3 weeks without siege weapons already and i can say well garrisoned towns are noticeably harder to take, with siege weapons i could just concentrate fire on taking down 1 wall then swarm in before the AI has the chance to block that breach, now without siege weps i have to fight my way through the entire enemy army since the AI doesnt get outmaneuvered that easily anymore, my combat is also slower and i use garrison script which definetely helps the AI quite a bit and has caused me to lose a few battles now cause i ran out of time

that said i see the appeal and i miss a bit the siege weapons in battles, it's just cool and cinematic af to see fireballs fly and crash into the enemy army, even if they do little or no damage

as expected some players like this change and others dont, you could maybe create a "settings" folder or something where ppl can choose if they wanna play with siege weapons or not

[Navajo Joe]

I would agree that Trebs should not be part of any field battle, that would be unhistorical , as they were generally built on the spot. However they should be allowable on sieging a settlement as they were designed to break the walls. If you remove them how is the player or the AI going to assault a Fortress or Citadel. Generally you build Siege Towers , but they be used on the first wall. Then you are reliant on rams and ladders to attack the second wall, what would be left to attack a third wall. That is the point where you bring Trebs up to outside the first wall and fire over the 2nd to hit the third. If memory serves me right on the Mongol Invasion they bring Trebs to capture settlements, if they don't have them that is going to restrict the invasion.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I would agree that Trebs should not be part of any field battle, that would be unhistorical , as they were generally built on the spot. However they should be allowable on sieging a settlement as they were designed to break the walls. If you remove them how is the player or the AI going to assault a Fortress or Citadel. Generally you build Siege Towers , but they be used on the first wall. Then you are reliant on rams and ladders to attack the second wall, what would be left to attack a third wall. That is the point where you bring Trebs up to outside the first wall and fire over the 2nd to hit the third. If memory serves me right on the Mongol Invasion they bring Trebs to capture settlements, if they don't have them that is going to restrict the invasion.

Hi Navajo, good to see you around!
I wouldn't agree with you on the role of trebuchets. There were not meant to break the walls. Only rams would do it with the wooden ones, maybe also with some masonry-based in the east. All other walls had to be scaled with ladders / siege towers. The trebuchets were meant to hurl objects over the walls and terrorise the population, ignite fires etc.
Only the arrival of effective cannons changed this situation sometime in mid-15th century.

@Dekhatres - yes, I think making it harder to take settlements would be the outcome. And I'd be happy with that.

If the trebuchets would be removed, then the space in EDB should be taken by other units, though.

[removeduser_28376423423]

Just to clear up a point: Both rams and ladders can be used infinite times, but rams have to be picked up again, and ladders cannot be reused when already put on the wall, so you have to save up some for the 2nd wall (By the way, I've always thought that a third wall - On citadels in M2TW- sounds and looks a bit excessive, does anybody know if it's realistic or not?).

[Jurand of Cracow]

Just to clear up a point: Both rams and ladders can be used infinite times, but rams have to be picked up again, and ladders cannot be reused when already put on the wall, so you have to save up some for the 2nd wall (By the way, I've always thought that a third wall - On citadels in M2TW- sounds and looks a bit excessive, does anybody know if it's realistic or not?).

Either you've got un-realistic trebuchets brinding down the walls, or un-realistic re-use of the ladders.
I'd go for the second option.