Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 35

Thread: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

  1. #1

    Default A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Greetings to everyone.


    First of all I would like to thank Lordsith and all the content creators for the great contributions they make to the game.


    This is my first post on TWC even though I’ve been following it for many years, and I do it in the hopes of providing useful data.


    Imperial Destroyer is probably the Empire mod I like the most and before writing these lines I tried vanilla version 6.3 and some of the options offered in the Gameplay Options section. Unfortunately my old laptop doesn't like VDM at all.


    The first observation that I want to emphasize and that I consider crucial is the moral system. Some players won’t find anything out of the ordinary, but I have to say that annihilating a unit to force it to retire in disarray is unrealistic, to put it mildly. With 10% casualties (decimated) morale begins to weaken, with 50% casualties only elite or veteran units resist, and not always. In that sense DarthMod was more consistent with a more realistic pace of retreats, groupings and counterattacks, I would venture to say it even fell short. Morale should be drastically reduced, only the most veteran units should be able to withstand 50% casualties.


    This brings us to the second observation, in reducing morale we must also do so in the ability to cause casualties. I've tried the Less Accurate Shots option, but it doesn't solve anything because it overly favors melee units. The melee, of course, was a key part of any confrontation, but there would be no firearms if they were not also fundamental. The attempt to reproduce linear battles is quite good, but it is unrealistic because many clashes in the eighteenth century were not. Clashes in the American colonies, for example Monongahela in 1755, were not linear battles at all. Limiting ammunition to two or three shots and then assaulting with the bayonet should be optional for the player, this is especially detrimental in terms of light and irregular units, but also in the case of buildings or fortifications being used. As for the behavior of AI I can't say anything, since I don't know if it can be conditioned via code, but I suspect not.


    So reducing morale, accuracy and melee stats, but especially the first, brings us a little closer to what we might call realism. I would do it myself, but my knowledge in modding is nil reason why I don’t contribute with the modified files. And it is important to note that auxiliary, irregular, or light units should have twice as much ammunition as line units. Pandours, Freikorps, Rangers et alli were used to harass the enemy, not for the purpose of frontal bayonet attacks.


    Speaking of forts and fortifications, I like the fact that they can be chosen as an option, they existed and were used a lot, especially at the turn of the century. The only downside I find is the fact that a single battery can breach in a matter of minutes, I think the solution to this problem is by tripling the hitpoints of the buildings or alternatively reducing the damage done by the guns to the buildings. I understand this prolongs the sieges, but we are talking about realism, not 5 minute arcade battles. In return, it allows buildings to be occupied in cities without being immediately demolished.


    As for cities, I like the fact that they don’t have walls. Empire fortifications do not serve at all for the purpose of representing them, with a few exceptions. As for the garrisons, they are ahistorical, but they add a plus of difficulty which is welcome. No more blitzkrieg in Paris, London or Moscow which is historically unconvincing. Nothing more to comment on here.


    Russian biass. Dear Lordsith, I know the good opinion of Frederick the Great on the courage of Russian soldiers, especially in defense. But the truth is that reproducing the Great Northern War I have problems. The Swedes usually went with numerical inferiority, but that did not stop them from going on the assault frequently. The values ​​of morale and melee must be balanced. I understand that the problem with the Swedes is manpower, but this problem, without limiting the number of units artificially is unsolvable in Empire. So I wonder if the solution should not come from reducing income, if that can be done, after all Sweden has always been a demographically weak country. Alternatively, the costs of recruiting and maintaining the units can be raised, with the same goal, for example at the English level.


    As for the fire range of the units, I think that reducing their accuracy solves any inconsistencies. And as for the guns I use the BSM option which seems right to me, although historically the range of the canister was much higher, but I find it to be a minor issue.

    And to finish this post, I would like to emphasize that aesthetically the mod is excellent. The choice of mid-century uniforms is the least bad, a good compromise for all scenarios. Ideally a system of reforms should be implemented that included uniforms, this was usual after a major defeat as did most major powers. And not only that but these reforms included the navy, but it seems to me that this is beyond the scope of the tools that Empire provides.


    Thank you so much for reading me, if you will excuse me I will look for a selection of 18th century musical themes to add to the game.


    Axland

  2. #2

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    I'm pretty ignorant of how to mod anything, but using Skyrim tools to adjust some things to my taste.

    Generally speaking I like much this mod, specially the AI improvements, but I'm not happy with battles at all. So, I decided to modify myself the units stats and modifying factors in order to achieve the most realistic battles possible. I know that will slow the pace of some encounters, but that not bothers me. I have some knowledge of historical background and read some specialised books. For example, all people interested in naval warfare must read this book:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Years'_War

    The goal, as I stated, is to offer the most realistic experience in battles to satisfy the most purist wargamers who I'm sure are aware of the flaws of Empire battles.

    Surely I will need help to achieve this goal and I would love other points of view testing the changes made. And I wants to start asking one question: I'm changing the fatigue rules in Lord_core.pack file, anyone know the meaning of penalitzacions? It represents percentiles?

    Thank you.

  3. #3

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    At the moment I simply doubled the penalties from fatigue. Now I'm heading to morale, accuracy, reloading skill and melée stats.

  4. #4

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Axland View Post
    At the moment I simply doubled the penalties from fatigue. Now I'm heading to morale, accuracy, reloading skill and melée stats.
    So now fatigue is very punishing, affecting accuracy but specially charges and melee.

    Size:
    I've changed units size. XVIII century saw a lot of reforms and battalions ranged from 100 to 800 men so for the sake of simplicity I put 300 men as the standard line battalion. Because light and irregular units can use more space in the battle they have 200 men per battalion. And for cavalry I used the standard 80 per squadron. I may note that a regiment of cavalry was usually formed by 2 squadrons (160 men) and the typical infantry battalion was 600 men, you are representing battles at roughly 50% real numbers. Of course the indigenous troops are totally irreal but at the moment I have no idea of how to solve that. I could adjust battalion strength accordingly with each country numbers, but that needs an adjustment of recruitment and maintenance costs.

    Morale:
    Morale is fully reduced, now militia level troops rarely reach 4 morale. Low quality infantry line and cavalry is 5. High quality infantry line an cavalry is 6. Elite troops is 7. Special elite troops as guards and general's staff is 8. To make a reliable troop you need to campaign to get experience.

  5. #5

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Ammo:
    All line units have now 20 ammo, specialised skirmishers have 30, unless from countries with low or null gunpowder production. Cavalry units have 20, but i'm meditating to reduce it to 15 or even 10.

  6. #6

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    First test:

    I see the changes ingame, but I know now I must modify also the file Lord_dbunits.pack because some remain unchanged. No changes at all morale wise, damn...

  7. #7

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    I have problems changing stats for each unit, some are not showing changes or maybe are in a file not identified by me. That's why I redo, now I changed globally morale rules in the core pack, they are very punishing casualties and fatigue wise, a bit too much, but is a promising path to reflect how reacted low morale units in battle. So I'm testing to reach the sweet spot. Also because that problem finding all units I scrapped the numbers assigned and is vanilla now. Of course you can edit the preferences file to apply the desired multiplier.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Axland View Post
    (...) The Swedes usually went with numerical inferiority, but that did not stop them from going on the assault frequently. The values ​​of morale and melee must be balanced. I understand that the problem with the Swedes is manpower, but this problem, without limiting the number of units artificially is unsolvable in Empire. So I wonder if the solution should not come from reducing income, if that can be done, after all Sweden has always been a demographically weak country. Alternatively, the costs of recruiting and maintaining the units can be raised, with the same goal, for example at the English level. (...)
    That’s exactly what I'm trying to reach on Imperial destroyer as I have started a campaign with Sweden: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...rt-with-Sweden

    They were nearly always highly outnumbered but their aggressive strategy paid. Their only problem is that they couldn't afford losing a big battle especially facing an endless supplied Russian army.


    So what I'm trying to mod here is to give the Swedes higher stats on charge bonus, moral and melee attack.
    My main problem is not to make them outrageously unbeatable but fun to play by rushing towards your enemy while under fire then firing volleys at point blank range before unleashing hell with bayonets and even pikemen!

    Also, the point is thus being able to play with lesser troops. You can either limit yourself by recruiting less, by limiting the availability of special regiments which can be arranged in the Pack File Manager.
    A nice and challenging thing I have noticed with the I.D. mod is that your troops are limited by the number of territories and their development which is nice.

    So the real challenge is correctly modding the stats. Prices can be raised also.

    Now there is also something that should be changed: the availability of elite units sooner in the game.
    I would like to play with Drabants but I can't find the place where in the Mod Manager to make them available sooner. We could “cheat” by unlocking technologies. They certain units should be available later as their regiments where created in the 1740ies. Also something that could be done.

    While searching for the "options", I have come across hidden units that I have been able to activate. But, they aren't complete as their uniforms are black.
    That is also something I'm not familiar to mod but I would love to be able to implement.
    Now there is something I’m asking myself, could it be possible to “merge” or to copy-past units and their code from one mod to another? The Darthmod has a lot of units that could be very welcome. ;-)


  9. #9

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    MacDonald:

    Normally this type of image "bug" is related to textures files, you see the mesh but no the textures. I guess can be due to the lack of them or is a problem linking correctly the mesh with the texture.

  10. #10

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    So, it is done. My feelings are good enough to propose anyone to test my modifications and gave me a report about the good or the bad.

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...d0?usp=sharing

    Morale:

    Changed morale modifiers. Still too much casualties to my taste, but the problem I found with more realistic morale and casualties stats is that the battles are too short and consequently is nearly impossible to manage correctly the armies. So, I've been forced to make a compromise, raising the overall tolerance of the troop.

    My impressions when playing a campaign are three:

    1.- Battles are not long, but enough time to execute manoeuvres, that mean satisfaction for the player.
    2.- Ai is not great, I do not touched anything in that regard but is a bit silly.
    3.- Cavalry is great, it was not my main goal, but a side effect. With the new morale system I play no more with only 2 Cav in order to pursuit routed units. Charges are devastating and normally infantry units broke, specially if are charged from rear. So I'm using 4 Cav in the army stacks to greater effect. Much enjoying Cav now!

    Now the Swedish average line infantry is 8 morale. Enough to deal with 8 morale Russians.

    Ammo:

    I'm testing 10 shots for line units and cavalry and 15 for light and marksman units. Not sure if I must raise the numbers, but in my testing feels good enough. Infantry run out of ammo at later stages of the battles. I would love to know more opinions in that aspect.


    Note: These modified files are intended to work with the '1Lord_less_accurate_shots' and 'Lord_1square_formation' options.

  11. #11

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Battle report.

    Yesterday I was testing the changes ingame, campaign and battles. I was defeated twice facing British, Russian and Prussian in 2vs2 battles, my French ally did not play fine... But I was happy to see how a Life Guard squadron started to destroy my line with flanking attacks. 3 battalion, one after one, fleeing from battle. The fourth managed to make a square but the loses are too much to win the battle. Beware of heavy cavalry...

  12. #12

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    hey man,
    nice work , i'm gonna try the new adjusment today and i'll give u my report
    i like your changes
    thank you

  13. #13

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    i like what you did with the moral , it feels good , but i feel the cavalry not powerful at all , but with high infantry moral , they can't break them at all in my game idk, i charged from behind and they didn't break , you need to make them a bit powerful or maybe i need to test more but that's the beginning, amazing work

  14. #14

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedhamdy11 View Post
    i like what you did with the moral , it feels good , but i feel the cavalry not powerful at all , but with high infantry moral , they can't break them at all in my game idk, i charged from behind and they didn't break , you need to make them a bit powerful or maybe i need to test more but that's the beginning, amazing work
    I checked the files and I found some stats reverted, or something was done wrong...

    But Morale tables are ok.

    I upload again the files revised. Also I reduced Morale of all guards to 12, except some exceptional elite units like french swiss guard or coldstream guards...

  15. #15

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3


  16. #16

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Tested a 1v1 battle. Again I suffered badly by enemy cavalry, in fact mine has been busy trying to repulse them. Seriously, now I fear cavalry charges much more than in vanilla.

  17. #17

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Axland View Post
    Tested a 1v1 battle. Again I suffered badly by enemy cavalry, in fact mine has been busy trying to repulse them. Seriously, now I fear cavalry charges much more than in vanilla.
    In fact I must note that heavy cavalry and equivalents have a bonus charge, now this number means something. In vanilla I tended always to keep light cavalry, cheaper and good to pursuit routed units, but now I see the usefulness of heavy cavalry to break the infantry or counter the enemy cavalry. Also if you charge frontally and you receive a salvo at short distance you squadron is manly dead.

  18. #18

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Sorry, my keyboard is not working fine.

    "Also if you charge frontally and you receive a salvo at short distance your squadron is mainly dead".

  19. #19

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Axland View Post
    Sorry, my keyboard is not working fine.

    "Also if you charge frontally and you receive a salvo at short distance your squadron is mainly dead".
    yeah amazing work man, i can't thank u enough for fixing the ammo, and the cavalry is okay now , that seems realistic , cavalry was very powerful in Napoleonic era to flank enemies , it's good they are powerful. and the guards .

  20. #20

    Default Re: A few observations regarding realism for Imperial Destroyer 6.3

    but the ai needs to now how to use cavalry right , and that's it and can't you make opening campaign have money ?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •