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Thread: TTIP is back on the table.

  1. #41

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Europeans: chicken washed with chlorine? Disgusting! I hate American food

    Also Europeans: can't wait to dig into my dinner of rotten shark with a side of maggot cheese. Yum!

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  2. #42

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    There is an astonishing amount of misinformation here about the TIPP and free trade more broadly.

    From an economic standpoint, literally everyone benefits from free trade deals because of comparative advantage, with the sole exception of whatever industries are being exposed to competition (and only in the short term). The alternative is protectionism, which, as the inverse applies, protects specific industries at the expense of literally everyone else in the world.

    From a geopolitical standpoint, this is done to bind liberal nations together economically against authoritarianism.

    From a sovereignty standpoint, by signing trade deals a country agrees to abide by them through a democratic process (as long as that country is a functioning democracy). They are either enforced at the executive level, or through legislation. They can choose to exit these deals whenever they like, but lose their benefits by doing so.

    In other words concerns about "corporatism", worker exploitation, and robbed sovereignty are unfounded, and reflect a profound ignorance about how free trade works. It's one of the basic pillars of good governance, and there's a reason why only political extremists oppose them.
    Last edited by Basilius; December 08, 2020 at 03:29 PM.

  3. #43
    pchalk's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    I am generally for free trade but my understanding is that the details of the agreement are what can either result in harm or benefits for certain groups. I remember reading a report on the BBC about a ghost town in the US. The town had once been busting with activity due mainly to the textile industry. Following the conclusion of NAFTA, the textile companies basically closed up shop and moved everything to Mexico.

  4. #44
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilius View Post
    There is an astonishing amount of misinformation here about the TIPP and free trade more broadly.

    From an economic standpoint, literally everyone benefits from free trade deals because of comparative advantage, with the sole exception of whatever industries are being exposed to competition (and only in the short term). The alternative is protectionism, which, as the inverse applies, protects specific industries at the expense of literally everyone else in the world.

    From a geopolitical standpoint, this is done to bind liberal nations together economically against authoritarianism.

    From a sovereignty standpoint, by signing trade deals a country agrees to abide by them through a democratic process (as long as that country is a functioning democracy). They are either enforced at the executive level, or through legislation. They can choose to exit these deals whenever they like, but lose their benefits by doing so.

    In other words concerns about "corporatism", worker exploitation, and robbed sovereignty are unfounded, and reflect a profound ignorance about how free trade works. It's one of the basic pillars of good governance, and there's a reason why only political extremists oppose them.

    Except that the previous draft of TTIP specifically mentioned that any EU regulations regarding consumer and worker safety would not apply to US products on the European market.
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  5. #45

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Except that the previous draft of TTIP specifically mentioned that any EU regulations regarding consumer and worker safety would not apply to US products on the European market.
    There is no reason for US workers to be subject to EU standards.

  6. #46
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    There is no reason for US workers to be subject to EU standards.
    And there is no reason for USA products to NOT be under the same standards as national products of EU member states.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And there is no reason for USA products to NOT be under the same standards as national products of EU member states.
    Sure, but part of the argument here is that United States should change their own standards. We shouldn't, that's a domestic matter. As long as food can meet EU quality standards it should be allowed, and that's down to individual suppliers, not American domestic policy. And again, to emphasize on the previous points, worker conditions are not EU's business. So long as standards are met, there shouldn't be a problem.

  8. #48
    pchalk's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Sure, but part of the argument here is that United States should change their own standards. We shouldn't, that's a domestic matter. As long as food can meet EU quality standards it should be allowed, and that's down to individual suppliers, not American domestic policy. And again, to emphasize on the previous points, worker conditions are not EU's business. So long as standards are met, there shouldn't be a problem.
    Exactly.

    I have a hard time understanding why the EU feels the need to meddle in domestic issues when negotiating trade. Its similar with the Brexit trade deal.

  9. #49

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by pchalk View Post
    Exactly.

    I have a hard time understanding why the EU feels the need to meddle in domestic issues when negotiating trade. Its similar with the Brexit trade deal.
    The original purpose of the European Union was to facilitate free trade; now its an interfering political entity.



  10. #50

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by pchalk View Post
    Exactly.

    I have a hard time understanding why the EU feels the need to meddle in domestic issues when negotiating trade. Its similar with the Brexit trade deal.
    To be fair, the EU has expanded in its scope to become a political instrument, rather than a simple trade framework. United States is not a member, making such concessions inappropriate.

  11. #51
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Sure, but part of the argument here is that United States should change their own standards. We shouldn't, that's a domestic matter. As long as food can meet EU quality standards it should be allowed, and that's down to individual suppliers, not American domestic policy. And again, to emphasize on the previous points, worker conditions are not EU's business. So long as standards are met, there shouldn't be a problem.
    What? No, you SHOULD NOT change YOUR standards because of Euro standards! That was my point from the beginning. Your state legislatures should decide on those! Not the federal government, not EU, not a EU-USA committee and as hell not the multinationals!

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    To be fair, the EU has expanded in its scope to become a political instrument, rather than a simple trade framework. United States is not a member, making such concessions inappropriate.
    EU should chill the feck down and stop expanding its scope. I don't want French and Germans and Dutch telling me what to do.
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  12. #52

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    What? No, you SHOULD NOT change YOUR standards because of Euro standards! That was my point from the beginning. Your state legislatures should decide on those! Not the federal government, not EU, not a EU-USA committee and as hell not the multinationals!
    Standards are the purview of the USDA and FDA. In terms of raising or lowering standards on the basis of trade and safety, I don't have a massive issue if it is done by experts and consistently with science. My issue, and this really concerns both US and EU punditry, is when trade negotiations start talking about labor codes and minimum wages. I realize that's unavoidable in this day and age, but it's still not ideal. That's when things become quite clearly political and depart from economics or good sense. Of course my tolerance to swallowing such indigirites is significantly higher if the overall deal is a massive net benefit for everyone.

    EU should chill the feck down and stop expanding its scope. I don't want French and Germans and Dutch telling me what to do.
    That's what happens when you are part of the EU. It's still a massive net benefit for most people involved, though if any state feels otherwise they should hurry up and leave to prove their point. As Brexit has shown us, it's easy to spew vitriol and boast about the benefits of sovereignty until you actually have to do it.

  13. #53

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    EU should chill the feck down and stop expanding its scope. I don't want French and Germans and Dutch telling me what to do.
    The EU is a political project; it will never stop trying to expand its scope. It should have been obvious when the 2015 bailout referendum was ignored that Greek sovereignty was frozen so long as it remains a member of the Eurozone and EU. Over the next few decades the Union will most likely accelerate its militarization efforts. At some point, it will attempt to dissolve independent national governance altogether. The only rational choice is to leave.



  14. #54
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    There is no reason for US workers to be subject to EU standards.
    That's European workers working for american companies in Europe actually.

    That being said I do think US workers would benefit quite a lot from EU standards being enforced. 20 days payed vacation, free healthcare, guaranteed education up to high-school, government founded allowance for the kids. Who doesn't want that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Sure, but part of the argument here is that United States should change their own standards. We shouldn't, that's a domestic matter. As long as food can meet EU quality standards it should be allowed, and that's down to individual suppliers, not American domestic policy. And again, to emphasize on the previous points, worker conditions are not EU's business. So long as standards are met, there shouldn't be a problem.
    Actually no. TTIP had a clause that specified that EU standards do not apply for american products and american companies on the EU market, meaning, if I make snake wool and Billy Bob also makes snake wool, as an EU citizen I have to abide by EU consumer and worker standards while Billy Bob can open a factory in the EU and sell in the EU without having to abide by those standards.

    That's completely unacceptable given the US' lack of consumer and worker protections.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; December 14, 2020 at 05:37 AM.
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  15. #55

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    That's European workers working for american companies in Europe actually.

    That being said I do think US workers would benefit quite a lot from EU standards being enforced. 20 days payed vacation, free healthcare, guaranteed education up to high-school, government founded allowance for the kids. Who doesn't want that.
    I'd be all for that, but for everyone, rather than specific industries.



    Actually no. TTIP had a clause that specified that EU standards do not apply for american products and american companies on the EU market, meaning, if I make snake wool and Billy Bob also makes snake wool, as an EU citizen I have to abide by EU consumer and worker standards while Billy Bob can open a factory in the EU and sell in the EU without having to abide by those standards.

    That's completely unacceptable given the US' lack of consumer and worker protections.
    I don't have an issue with American companies being subject to European arbitration and European standards. Worker standards though? That's not really EU's business. Everything is on the table in trade negotiations, and the question is what the EU gained in exchange and how it benefits Europeans. Don't forget, that standards and regulations are just as often used to protect incumbents, as they are used to protect consumers. I'm sure you're familiar with CAP.

  16. #56
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    As long as I am an EU citizen working in the EU it's msot certainly is the EU's business to enforce worker standards. Presently American companies, like Plexus, have to abide by those standards and, aside for a few illogical quirks like having to wear a shirt every day except for friday (no idea what that's about) or being at the office 30 minutes early, they're doing just fine.
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  17. #57

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    Worker standards in EU? Sure. Worker standards in United States? Not particularly.

  18. #58

    Default Re: TTIP is back on the table.

    The EU is satanic, part of the new tower of babel. The trade zone thing is 70s propaganda


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