TTIP is back on the table.

[alhoon]

As for your comments about corporatism over democracy, it's nonsense. In your particular case, Greece is more than welcome to hold a referendum and leave the EU, leave the monetary union, and to tear down every single treaty that "violates" Greek sovereignty as if Greeks didn't vote for the government that got them to join the EU in the first place.

Saying no to TTIP doesn't equal leaving the EU, LM. Please get real. EU is going a bit too far, but nowhere as bad as TTIP with multinationals. Also, EU is a supernational government that we the people have some voice over since we DO participate in Europarliament elections.
Turning Corporations to a quasi-form of government is disastrous as the people under East India Company can tell you. Trade DOES NOT solve everything and Trade is NOT more important than parliamentary freedom to take decisions. TTIP is DESIGNED to give corporations a bigger stick and a bigger carrot when it comes to negotiating with governments.

I don't consult Facebook when I'm choosing a medical procedure. I give my doctor a blank check and tell him to do what's necessary, and the answer to me being more informed about my medical care isn't for me to go medical school for 6 years.

Before choosing your doctor though, you should check what his clients in FB have to say. Or what doctor your friends in Facebook are happy with.
And I bet you wouldn't like it if your doctor told you, "you know what, medical costs tripled because all of us doctors decided to increase our profits and there's nothing the government can do about it. We have a special understanding with the government that puts us above national laws."

While campaign finance needs a reform, extremist views like banning lobbying, is not the answer. Nor is the answer to consistently vote in conservatives, who consistently turn out to be grifters eager to have their turn to be bribed by corporations. As any statistics students will tell you, garbage in, garbage out.

Banning lobbying is mainstream not extremist. The government is allowed to ask experts of the industry and conduct independent research. What is not allowed is special interests hiring movers-and-shakers and offering money in order to promote their agenda which is a form of bribery.

Last but not least, of course the answer is not to vote for conservatives as they are the most pro-lobbies. Lobbies = money. Money = conservatives. Anarcho-communists in general are not rich and they strongly dislike corporations and mistrust capitalistic ventures.

[Love Mountain]

American food should be banned globally as a helath hazard, not imported to other countries.

And this is based on...?

Saying no to TTIP doesn't equal leaving the EU, LM. Please get real. EU is going a bit too far, but nowhere as bad as TTIP with multinationals. Also, EU is a supernational government that we the people have some voice over since we DO participate in Europarliament elections.
Turning Corporations to a quasi-form of government is disastrous as the people under East India Company can tell you. Trade DOES NOT solve everything and Trade is NOT more important than parliamentary freedom to take decisions. TTIP is DESIGNED to give corporations a bigger stick and a bigger carrot when it comes to negotiating with governments.

The EU was the best thing to happen to Europe. And I have no idea what you're on about in regards to trade "solving" anything. Stop blaming free trade agreements for a ed up country in Place A or Place B. Most likely, free trade is the least of their problems.

Before choosing your doctor though, you should check what his clients in FB have to say. Or what doctor your friends in Facebook are happy with.
And I bet you wouldn't like it if your doctor told you, "you know what, medical costs tripled because all of us doctors decided to increase our profits and there's nothing the government can do about it. We have a special understanding with the government that puts us above national laws."

No, believe me, you really don't want to check Facebook reviews. There is nothing helpful in them. That's also not what companies do lmao. Free trade lowers prices for consumers, it puts competitive pressure on incumbents, and it reduces opportunities for profit. Your erroneous understanding of what trade deals and multinationals are like, makes my point poignant. I don't expect non-experts to have anything meaningful to contribute and they generally don't. The only thing this does, is make negotiation harder or impossible.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Banning lobbying is mainstream not extremist. The government is allowed to ask experts of the industry and conduct independent research. What is not allowed is special interests hiring movers-and-shakers and offering money in order to promote their agenda which is a form of bribery.

"Mainstream" for the ignorant perhaps. If you actually knew what lobbying does and how important it is, you wouldn't be so quick to conclude. Groups like the Washington Environmental Council is one of the reasons why my state is so clean. Otherwise, without lobbying, oil and gas companies would've excavated everything not owned by the federal government. Wealthy interests have ways to get what they want without lobbying. Take away lobbying, and you're taking away one of the ways in which the "little guy" can fight back and pressure politicians.

Last but not least, of course the answer is not to vote for conservatives as they are the most pro-lobbies. Lobbies = money. Money = conservatives. Anarcho-communists in general are not rich and they strongly dislike corporations and mistrust capitalistic ventures.

Yeah, that's not how it works.

[AqD]

American food should be banned globally as a helath hazard, not imported to other countries.

What good thing in life is not a health hazard? As long as they tell explicitly what's offered, what's the problem here? Even GM food or poisonous food.

[alhoon]

@Suki: Let's agree to disagree. You're mistaking the evils of TTIP that moves us towards corpocracy with the merits of Free Trade. Yes, Free Trade, when done correctly is not bad. No, my objections with TTIP have less to do with Free Trade in the abstract and more to do with evil, greedy corporations trying get more power at the cost of my standard of living and my government's power to enact policy.

I don't agree with the leftwings in much, but I agree with them in this: TTIP is an abomination that should go down in flames.

What good thing in life is not a health hazard? As long as they tell explicitly what's offered, what's the problem here? Even GM food or poisonous food.

The companies want our government to ban the labeling of GM food as such. Some of the food on the shelves is not marketed as GM already under some circumstances (quite reasonable ones, mind you but they still go against the principle of "exactly what's offered").
If TTIP passes, the companies would enforce it and then you will not be allowed to tell what's offered because it would hurt their profits. And that's the tip of the iceberg.

[Love Mountain]

@Suki: Let's agree to disagree. You're mistaking the evils of TTIP that moves us towards corpocracy with the merits of Free Trade. Yes, Free Trade, when done correctly is not bad. No, my objections with TTIP have less to do with Free Trade in the abstract and more to do with evil, greedy corporations trying get more power at the cost of my standard of living and my government's power to enact policy.

I won't bother with a lecture about what "corpocracy" or "free trade done right" actually is, because such a lecture won't be effective on people who have no interest in a nuanced discussion of such things. To make my point brief, all "free trade" will favor corporations and there is no such thing as "free trade done right". So if you're thinking that there is some kind of ideal solution we can reach that avoids both "corpocracy" and protectionism, then stop. Such a solution doesn't exist. Any free trade agreement, no matter how much it favors worker rights and protections, will inevitably screw over workers in favor of special interests. That's because any free trade deal, even the most "done right" one will involve in putting some firms from Country A at a disadvantage, in order for Country A to gain better access to Country B's economy. And such deals are mutually beneficial to everyone; the workers, the corporations, and governments. Otherwise, far more countries would never sign any trade deal, and we'd all be using the WTO instead of bothering with FTAs like NAFTA.

I don't agree with the leftwings in much, but I agree with them in this: TTIP is an abomination that should go down in flames.

Unlikely. Just like any trade deal that's reviled, people will get fixated on a particular acronym, while a rehashed version of the trade deal will quietly pass during a time when people aren't paying attention. Then, 10 years later, I'll be reading about how the economy is doing much better, how wonderful technology is, and how we are better off today than any time in history. All without crediting the trade deals and technocrats that made it possible.

The companies want our government to ban the labeling of GM food as such. Some of the food on the shelves is not marketed as GM already under some circumstances (quite reasonable ones, mind you but they still go against the principle of "exactly what's offered").
If TTIP passes, the companies would enforce it and then you will not be allowed to tell what's offered because it would hurt their profits. And that's the tip of the iceberg.

That's a very lame tip of the iceberg. Especially when the only reason to bother labeling GM foods, are to entertain people's sensibilities rather than a genuine health hazard. And here I thought you were against SJWs.

[alhoon]

That's a very lame tip of the iceberg. Especially when the only reason to bother labeling GM foods, are to entertain people's sensibilities rather than a genuine health hazard. And here I thought you were against SJWs.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree that labelling GMFoods is not a big deal and the exceptions make sense. But that I agree with the greedy corporations on that matter, and I don't personally give much of a damn if some treehugging local farmers will have to compete with Indian products that can resist climate change ... does not mean I want the corporations to be the ones calling the shots!
I.e. If people are afraid of the solutions on the table, I believe they have the right to die from starvation if the majority votes to ban GMOs, regardless me not minding them.

Democracy does have its flaws. It's just better than Corpocracy.

[Love Mountain]

Democracy is the reason you have "Corpocracy".

[alhoon]

Democracy is the reason you have "Corpocracy".

Touche.
But it's also the way to keep the corporations in check.

[AqD]

Touche.
But it's also the way to keep the corporations in check.

or the way to make people feeling themselves powerful while true power grows in the dark, otherwise you wouldn't have created this thread, to complain about something so important across so many countries yet no civilian asked for it or participated otherwise

[Sir Adrian]

And this is based on...?

Chlorinated chicken, porc and beef chocked full of antibiotics, prevalence of gm products and ingredients (the organic and free range food you pay top dollar for at Whole Foods and other scam stores is avaialble for the equivalent of 10 cents in my local market), prevalence of milk and products from animals suffering from human transmisible infections, extensive use of cancerigenic pesticides in agriculture, high amounts of plastic and cencerigenic substances in tap and store bought bottled water, high amounts of sugar and addiction causing sugar replacements such as corn and palm oils in absolutely everything from bread to tomato sauce.

I mean, pizza is considered a vegetable in US school cafeterias because it has 2 spoons of ketchup, which is also 30% sugar. You sell Coca Cola in schools. Coca Cola, to ing children. And then you dump on ADHD medication because they have trouble concentrating. Of course they do, they eat half a kilogram of sugar daily mixed in with their food.


The US tops the charts on obesity, heart disease, blood pressure and a slew of other diseases caused by poor nutrition.

[alhoon]

The US tops the charts on obesity, heart disease, blood pressure and a slew of other diseases caused by poor nutrition.

They do, but don't meet the TTIP-issues from the other side, Settra. If their people are fine doing that, then so be it. I think in USA it's even down to individual states to start putting regulations on food.

[Sir Adrian]

It's not what the people want. Companies put sugar and corn starch in food because it causes addiction and people will buy more. The fact those cause obesity and heart disease is merely a secondary effect for those companies.

They are free to do that because the US has very little food regulation. TTIP specifically mentions that US companies can trade in Europe without applying European regulations and standardisation.


The average consumer simply does not know better - in fact it's was a culture shock for a buddy from California that bread here is not sweet and what he calls bread we call Christmas cake - so if this passes, it will open the door to the same that is being peddled in the US as it will obviously be cheaper and people will buy that instead of healthier local produce. This has already happened on less harmfull scale in the EU. I'm pretty sure you've noticed how every market is filled with extremely low quality Polish apples and vegetables, which sell more despite tasting like wax simply because they are cheaper than local products.

[alhoon]

It's not what the people want. Companies put sugar and corn starch in food because it causes addiction and people will buy more. The fact those cause obesity and heart disease is merely a secondary effect for those companies.

They are free to do that because the US has very little food regulation. TTIP specifically mentions that US companies can trade in Europe without applying European regulations and standardisation.


The average consumer simply does not know better - in fact it's was a culture shock for a buddy from California that bread here is not sweet and what he calls bread we call Christmas cake - so if this passes, it will open the door to the same that is being peddled in the US as it will obviously be cheaper and people will buy that instead of healthier local produce. This has already happened on less harmfull scale in the EU. I'm pretty sure you've noticed how every market is filled with extremely low quality Polish apples and vegetables, which sell more despite tasting like wax simply because they are cheaper than local products.

I agree with you that TTIP allowing USA companies to bypass EU regulations is pure corpocracy, placing the company above the law. If they don't like our regulations then they can choose not to put their products here, as simple as that.

I am also against EU bypassing regulations of the individual countries BTW. These rules forced us to abandon or limit the production some traditional food and drink as it was not up to Euro standards. Half the Raki we have in Crete is kinda-illegal, being made using loopholes in the system.


HOWEVER... if the Americans don't want to put regulations to their food companies, that's their problem. I find the actions of many of these companies deplorable, but I am not an American nor an Californian, Nebraskan, etc. to tell them what to do with their country and their states.
If they want food regulations, they can vote representatives that would pursue them. I believe they should put regulations, evidently they disagree. That's on them and they can keep leading the obesity charts.

I don't want the evil American companies putting their unhealthy crap on our shelves and I don't want the European companies dictating to American companies what to put on their shelves.

[Sir Adrian]

It's not that Americans don't want to put regulations, it's that food companies have grown so rich that they can lobby congress and splash obscene amounts of money to avoid regulation and put thier own cronies in the USDA. And this leads to another cancerous system that is sadly also present in the the EU, lobbying aka legal bribery.

[Knight of Heaven]

Banning lobbying is mainstream not extremist. The government is allowed to ask experts of the industry and conduct independent research. What is not allowed is special interests hiring movers-and-shakers and offering money in order to promote their agenda which is a form of bribery.

And how fascists economic systems usually work.

The EU was the best thing to happen to Europe

Debatable, very debatable. But it is pointless to imagine now what if scenarios. It is what it is now for good and ill.

if this passes, it will open the door to the same that is being peddled in the US as it will obviously be cheaper and people will buy that instead of healthier local produce. This has already happened on less harmfull scale in the EU. I'm pretty sure you've noticed how every market is filled with extremely low quality Polish apples and vegetables, which sell more despite tasting like wax simply because they are cheaper than local products.

Indeed, i also do feel that eating healthy has become more expensive then it used to be.

[Love Mountain]

Chlorinated chicken, porc and beef chocked full of antibiotics, prevalence of gm products and ingredients (the organic and free range food you pay top dollar for at Whole Foods and other scam stores is avaialble for the equivalent of 10 cents in my local market), prevalence of milk and products from animals suffering from human transmisible infections, extensive use of cancerigenic pesticides in agriculture, high amounts of plastic and cencerigenic substances in tap and store bought bottled water, high amounts of sugar and addiction causing sugar replacements such as corn and palm oils in absolutely everything from bread to tomato sauce.

A lot of this stuff is nonsense, insofar as it pertains to actual food safety. Seems like you have more of a problem with animal rights, then actual food standards. For example, on the topic of milk, as in everything, the issue is far more complicated than "United States has bad milk". Farm conditions are important, but the issue with U.S. food production does not seem to be the practice of chlorinating the chicken, of using antibiotics banned by others, or by a different milk testing methodology. The issue is with the prioritization of efficiency over cleanliness in U.S. farms. If you're going to oppose U.S. food imports, at least do it for the actual reasons, rather than the headline fixation with a particular antibiotic or practice.

I mean, pizza is considered a vegetable in US school cafeterias because it has 2 spoons of ketchup, which is also 30% sugar. You sell Coca Cola in schools. Coca Cola, to ing children. And then you dump on ADHD medication because they have trouble concentrating. Of course they do, they eat half a kilogram of sugar daily mixed in with their food.

I don't know where you're getting this from and I don't think that a vending machine full of soda is the core cause of obesity in United States. There is a point where you have to realize that the health attributes of a particular population are ultimately down to the culture and personal choices individuals make, rather than specific regulations. So longa s U.S. imports meet an international standard, there shouldn't be an issue. And there are plenty of producers who can do so, in fact, 90% of milk tested is below 400,000 SCC.

The US tops the charts on obesity, heart disease, blood pressure and a slew of other diseases caused by poor nutrition.

That's not an issue with the food supply. That's an issue with American choices.

[pchalk]

Personally I was hoping for this to work the first time around. As an American living in Germany, I have been waiting for decent peanut butter to come on the market

[Love Mountain]

Personally I was hoping for this to work the first time around. As an American living in Germany, I have been waiting for decent peanut butter to come on the market

I'm sure it's already there. It all depends on how intensely you want it. Quality meat for example, aside from going online, or to a butcher... my local Safeway (a very generic grocer sorta like Tesco), often carries steak from Snake River Farms, a very high quality ranch. Could US standards be better? Sure, but it's not really a disaster imo, like some people like to imagine, and it's certainly not responsible for obesity despite what some tree-huggers or leftist (or ironically, European conservatives), seem to think. Tons of Americans are fat because they choose to be, through their lifestyle and habits. There are plenty of Americans who aren't fat, in fact, I have the opposite problem.

[alhoon]

and it's certainly not responsible for obesity despite what some tree-huggers or leftist (or ironically, European conservatives), seem to think.

It is in part responsible for obesity and I say that as a European Conservative that is not a tree-hugger or leftist and in fact considers the insinuation that he's a lefty tree-hugger as an affront.

Down with American Food standards. Now let's go burn some fossil fuel.

[pchalk]

I actually find the quality of a lot of American food (especially the fresh stuff) to be better than where I live now in Germany. Of course you can't simply buy the cheapest prepackaged stuff. That really is much worse quality. Though in that sense I can only base my conclusion on experience. Some numbers might be more helpful.

I'm sure it's already there. It all depends on how intensely you want it. Quality meat for example, aside from going online, or to a butcher... my local Safeway (a very generic grocer sorta like Tesco), often carries steak from Snake River Farms, a very high quality ranch. Could US standards be better? Sure, but it's not really a disaster imo, like some people like to imagine, and it's certainly not responsible for obesity despite what some tree-huggers or leftist (or ironically, European conservatives), seem to think. Tons of Americans are fat because they choose to be, through their lifestyle and habits. There are plenty of Americans who aren't fat, in fact, I have the opposite problem.

It is true I was able to find the peanut butter I was looking for online but it was 25€ for a jar . There are other products I would like to have too but all in all, Germany is not a bad spot if you want the global culinary experience. Lots of goods from the middle east, asia, and eastern Europe you can find in specialty grocers.