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Thread: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

  1. #41

    Default Re: Diplomacy and reputation fix - call for testers

    I've only briefly tried the 0.2 and immediately noticed that forming alliances does not increase faction standing with your new ally. Neither does bribing a faction, tried and gave the pope 10k florins, but the relations stayed the same. Is this intentional?

  2. #42

    Default Re: Diplomacy and reputation fix - call for testers

    Quote Originally Posted by Waluk View Post
    I've only briefly tried the 0.2 and immediately noticed that forming alliances does not increase faction standing with your new ally. Neither does bribing a faction, tried and gave the pope 10k florins, but the relations stayed the same. Is this intentional?
    Unless I'm mistaken it would be the same as in base SSHIP I did not touch stuff related to alliance forming or gifts. Tell me if I'm wrong, as it would mean I made a bug and should correct it!
    It is in fact one of the things that pushed me to do this, and I'll work on it for the next release.
    Last edited by Belovèse; November 30, 2020 at 04:05 PM. Reason: typo
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Diplomacy and reputation fix - call for testers

    Quote Originally Posted by Waluk View Post
    I've only briefly tried the 0.2 and immediately noticed that forming alliances does not increase faction standing with your new ally. Neither does bribing a faction, tried and gave the pope 10k florins, but the relations stayed the same. Is this intentional?
    Well I checked it and I indeed made a typo in v0.2 that prevents the file from loading, so it has no effect... Everyone, please use this fixed v0.21 instead!
    Sorry for the bug, thanks Waluk for pointing it out.

    I'm working on v0.3, in wich I'll rework a lot of triggers to have an easier understanding of the file: there is a lot that overlap each other but are in different places, so it's hard to see the effects easily.
    I'm merging those, and reducing the number of automatic or worldwide effects: there is actually a lot of stuff that fire no matter what you do, I want to reduce that and make your actions as the player clearer.

    I'll also include the diplomacy file, to rework the diplomatic panel. As your action will be more impactful (and Immaculate standing achievable!), I'll make relation and reputation have a greater impact on some diplomatic transaction.
    I'll also remove relation impact from some transaction: as of now your relation with a faction will impact greatly on a ceasefire. And if you've been taking their cities and destroying their armies, chances are their do not like you that much... Shocking! I think that's one of the reason some AI never accept ceasefire even if they are in a very bad situation..
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  4. #44
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Ok. File replaced by version 0.21

  5. #45

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Hello guys, update bump: version 0.3 is out, you can download it in the first post or here (same link).

    This version is part cleanup of existing files, part new things. Your relation and reputation should now vary quickly depending on your actions, and the weight of these variation will require further balancing so your feedback is needed and will be much appreciated!
    Keep in mind that I plan to have some effect depending on difficulty for one of the next releases, so consider this version 0.3 as the medium diffuculty setting. And want first to find a good balance here, and then I'll make the system less forgiving on hard and veryhard.
    What's new:
    v0.3 (for SSHIP097)
    main changes:
    - started working on the diplomacy panel itself via descr_diplomacy.wml
    - reputation will be more dependent on your actions (prisoners, sack/occupy/exterminate, assassinations) and less on the number of settlements you control.
    - no more automatic reputation mailus on taking a settlement: it will depend solely on your decision to sack/occupy/exterminate.
    - respect your neighbor frontiers, as trespassing now has a greater impact
    - in general actions should have a much greater impact on your reputation.
    - for those who look at the text files: I started working on a new organization of the file: new summary, all "WhenToTest FactionTurnStart" triggers put in the same place, a lot of trigger renaming to streamline thing and make the export to spreadsheet easier to understand. An to be sure to find duplicate triggers. And a merged a few of those already.
    diplomatic agreements consequences on relation and reputation first rework:
    - CHANGE: trade agreement gives you a better relation on acceptation with target faction and it's allies, but no more reputation boost and target enemies will dislike you a bit.
    - CHANGE: reactivated possibility to "bribe" AI with money: small relation bonus every 1000 gold gifted. To be tuned, but it should be expensive and a worse solution than acting well to that faction. FEEDBACK NEEDED!
    - CHANGE: merged redundant triggers firing on concluding an alliance.
    - CHANGE: alliance has more impact on relation (and relation with target enemies also), but less on reputation.
    - FIX: marriage was lowering you reputation!
    - CHANGE: marriages have a much greater impact, but your reputation and relation will more important in concluding the marriage proposal
    - FIX: alliance could lower your relation with your new ally, it there were above "good" level!
    - CHANGE: threatening war has a bit more impact on your reputation, and now also affect AI. And it affects your taget allies as well.
    - CHANGE: breaking alliance no longer has an effect on faction the same religion as you.
    - CHANGE: successfully concluding diplomacy transaction no longer has an impact on factions the same religion as yours.
    - CHANGE: Declaring war no longer has a worldwide impact, but it's effect on target allies and target enemies is stronger. And it has now an effect on your enemies also, as see will see you ar warmongering.
    - CHANGE: declaring war on pope now has impacts on all factions, depending on religion
    diplomacy changes:
    - now vassal demands don't have any link to standing or relation anymore (if you're at war chance is they won't like you anyway!), but AI is less inclined to do it.
    - reconciliation (for excommunicated factions) is more pricey but not related to standing or reputation anymore (for the same reasons)
    - AI will be a bit more willing to accept ceasefires, but your reputation will impact the decision
    - the balance of your propositions will have more impact on your relation with that faction
    - for now bribing the AI is reactivated (better relations every 1000 gold given as a gift).
    - marriage proposal depends more on relation and reputation
    relation and reputation changes:
    - invading your ally will now result in a heavier reputation malus, and the target allies will also strongly dislike you.
    - merged triggers that were similar or duplicating effects, to have a clearing understanding of what's happening.
    - major assassination attempts have a heavier impact, except if you target rebels.
    - the AI now has the same impact for assassination attempts than the player.
    - attacking your ally is more heavily punished
    - being allied gives you a greater reputation bonus
    - releasing prisoners gives you a greater reputation bonus
    - ransom rejected still gives you a small reputation malus (after all, you ARE killing the prisoners, even if the game does not let you change your mind.)
    - executing prisoners gives harsher reputation malus.
    - same for release/ransom/execute characters (so the effects ADD UP to the normal "soldier-only" effects).
    - big religious building have more positive impact on your reputation
    - deactivated triggers Mongols_Invasion and Mongols_Golden_Horde because they were too
    - the pope should have stronger reactions to catholics being agressed by others
    - reactivated diplomatic insult (relation worsen for unbalanced proposals)
    - tried to equilibrate and merge when possible all triggers firing at faction turn start, except the ones related to historical relations and to religious cities.
    - pope has the same attitude toward player than toward AI (was a bit biased against player before). Also there was two triggers having this effect, merged them.
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  6. #46
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Well done for your work which, if it works, will make the game even more immersive !


    I will immediately upgrade my version 0.21 to version 0.3.


    I have a small remark regarding corruption:
    The principle of giving in increments of 1000 to improve your relationship is perhaps questionable as the richest and the most powerful will always be able to improve their reputation and not the one who has less than 1000 to give.
    The ideal would be to improve your reputation in this way according to your income ...
    Maybe even, if a player abuses the bribery, his reputation would eventually drop ?


    These are just a few little thoughts.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    Well done for your work which, if it works, will make the game even more immersive !


    I will immediately upgrade my version 0.21 to version 0.3.


    I have a small remark regarding corruption:
    The principle of giving in increments of 1000 to improve your relationship is perhaps questionable as the richest and the most powerful will always be able to improve their reputation and not the one who has less than 1000 to give.
    The ideal would be to improve your reputation in this way according to your income ...
    Maybe even, if a player abuses the bribery, his reputation would eventually drop ?


    These are just a few little thoughts.
    I agree with you, for now this feature is here to allow the players (and myself) to balance any unforeseen effects that would lock him in "despicable" realm, or worse.
    I will test a way to have the balance of deal made in diplomacy screen ("generous", "balanced" and so on) impact relations, maybe it could replace the bribe thingy.

    It's also a question of countermeasures: being rich and powerful requires lots of territories, which makes you being hated by other. So I think that, well balanced, bribing is a roleplay element: you can be powerful and greedy and people will be defiant, or you can be powerful and generous and they'll forgive you... as long as you pay!
    I'm not meaning to turn this into a political thread, but it's like big oil companies funding charities for environmental issues: good public relations have a cost.
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Hey everybody, just spotted something in my file so I had to go to v0.31, the link is updated

    v0.31:
    - fixed value way too high for reputation bonus when releasing prisoners: it was only for testing and I forgot it!
    - thanks to above test, I now know that "WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor" and "WhenToTest GeneralPrisonersRansomedCaptor" are redundant, so i kept only FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor as it also fires for captains.

    200 lines less in the file, always a nice feeling!
    Last edited by Belovèse; December 03, 2020 at 05:59 AM.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    I was using bribes before to keep good relations, specially with the pope, although my values were between 2k to 10k. Didn't do much to help stave off backstabs, even in Medium difficulty, though. I was trying to also get Military Access with my neighboors to see if I could get more lasting peace like I did in EB2.

  10. #50
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Do you have to start a new game to take advantage of the changes ?


    In very few rounds of an ongoing campaign, I noticed inconsistencies in the negotiations.


    For example, the window indicated that my proposal was "very generous" and yet the interlocutor replied in the negative, specifying that I was insulting him with such a proposal.


    I also found the case of a diplomat offering me a trade agreement:
    - I offer him a little more with exchange of card information.
    - He refuses.
    - I then proposed to him the commercial agreement he offered me at the beginning ...
    and there, he closes the negotiations by saying that he is not interested.


    I specify that this happened with version 0.3
    I will update this now.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    I then proposed to him the commercial agreement he offered me at the beginning ...
    and there, he closes the negotiations by saying that he is not interested.


    I specify that this happened with version 0.3
    I will update this now.
    I think that's a vanilla Medieval 2 thing, if you let down someone you piss them off, unless someone is in a desperate situation they often close the negotiations, I actually like it, it's kind of realistic and once you're aware you think twice before spamming offers.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    Do you have to start a new game to take advantage of the changes ?
    The system as intended no matter what turn you are in you game when you swap the files, but I think the effects would be clearer on a new game, as the standing and reputation are "fresh"
    In very few rounds of an ongoing campaign, I noticed inconsistencies in the negotiations.

    For example, the window indicated that my proposal was "very generous" and yet the interlocutor replied in the negative, specifying that I was insulting him with such a proposal.
    Do you remember what was the proposal? I did not touch all of them yet.
    I also found the case of a diplomat offering me a trade agreement:
    - I offer him a little more with exchange of card information.
    - He refuses.
    - I then proposed to him the commercial agreement he offered me at the beginning ...
    and there, he closes the negotiations by saying that he is not interested.

    I specify that this happened with version 0.3
    I will update this now.
    I'm not sure if it comes from my minimod or not, I also had this kind of behaviour before modding the diplomacy. IIRC even in vanilla or kingdom. EDIT: as Sindathar confirmed above!
    But I have a few guesses:
    - As far as I know the map info exchange doesn't just depend on the balance of the deal, but also on if your map has infos the AI has not. So it could be "very generous" and still refused. SO it's better to deal it separately, an its best to avoid it as a counter-proposal
    - If the negotiation are too long the AI will act cold anyway. Did you notice a change in your relation to that faction?
    - maybe the deal balance displayed on the diplomacy screen is based only on the value of the items, and not on the relation and reputation modifiers? If so if I put too much weight in these modifiers, the displayed balance will become irrelevant. I'll look into it.
    For info here how each proposal look in the descr_diplomacy.xml. Yhis one from my minimod, notice I made the faction standing, AKA relation, very important:
    Code:
            <item name = "offer_trade_rights">
                <cost modifier = "1.0"/>
                <faction_standing modifier = "2.0"/>
                <global_standing modifier = "0.01"/>
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Hey guys, I'm going back this mini-mod for the holidays, if you have any feedback it'll be really useful! For now I'll concentrate on reviewing and balancing existing triggers (I find it a bit too easy to improve reputation in my mod) and I'll implement a different way of handling the agent impact: spy and assassin will only have an impact on your reputation if they are caught and executed, as of now it seems to be only the order given that counts and not the outcome of the mission. I'll add new objectives depending on your feedback!
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  14. #54
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    It's hard to give you a lot of feedback because I'm running out of time to play my campaigns.
    Overall it goes well with diplomacy, although I might find it a bit too easy with the VH mode that I play most of the time.

    I don't know if this is your field, but I find that the AI ​​sends armies on crusades very quickly. The player often finds himself behind the other factions.
    Additionally, crusader armies often remain inactive near their target.
    But this aspect may have nothing to do with your mini-mod ...

  15. #55

    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    You're right Kostic, it is too easy and I'll work on hard and very hard difficulties as soon as I finish reviewing existing triggers.

    Sadly all the crusades aspects depend more on the ai, and I'm not ready to tackle it! Maybe JLMP will have more insight. I think it has something to do with autoresolve: walls give a huge bonus in autoresolve, and iirc it makes the ai reluctant to attack.
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  16. #56
    Nemesis2345's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Belovèse View Post
    You're right Kostic, it is too easy and I'll work on hard and very hard difficulties as soon as I finish reviewing existing triggers.

    Sadly all the crusades aspects depend more on the ai, and I'm not ready to tackle it! Maybe JLMP will have more insight. I think it has something to do with autoresolve: walls give a huge bonus in autoresolve, and iirc it makes the ai reluctant to attack.
    I also noticed Balista and Canon towers can make armies not attack unless they have siege equipment to breach it , i built the Balista Towers as my first building in Jerusalem and i saw jihad armies camping after as well.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Diplomacy and reputation fix - call for testers

    Hi Belovese, I played around 50 turns of Venetian campaign with your diplomacy, I have some observations, just to give some feedback:
    1. Sometimes my reputation was dropping from Reliable to Very Untrustworthy in 2,3 turns. Maybe, was caused by not declaring war on the enemies of my allies, but sometimes I just had no idea why my reputation was dropping rapidly. I attached one example - before and after the successful crusade. My reputation dropped from v.reliable to mixed just after clicking the end of turn. Whats interesting, after reloading and ending turn again my rep stays v.reliable..
    2. After a while I noticed other factions have very low reputation, almost every nation was despicable, v. untrustworthy etc
    3. There is very few wars, frontiers are the same almost since the beginning of the game. I started a war with Byz and the Byzantine army hesitated too much before attacking, they had full stacks waiting for nothing, allowing me to keep the conquered castles.
    4. Bribing the pope costs a lot - which is good I think, makes the game more difficult especially playing venice or sicilly..
    5. I like very much the fact that the player's actions have big influence on the rep, not sure though how it works for AI though and there were this mysterious sudden changes in rep, maybe I just don't know some details how the reputation works in certain situations..
    Thanks for your work I think diplomacy is a very important part of the game, if not the most important. I hope my observations will help somehow..
    Attached Files Attached Files

  18. #58

    Default Re: Diplomacy and reputation fix - call for testers

    Thanks a lot for this detailed report, it is very useful!

    1) I still have to balance a lot of effects, and in some time I'll also release some kind of guide to make effects more clear. So strange changes in reputation are not intended but not surprising!
    2) I also noticed that, I'll balance it for a next release.
    3) I think it has to do with the xml diplomacy file: I was trying to avoid the AI refusing peace offers when loosing, but I went too far!
    4), yes, it was intended, good to know it's working!
    5) killing/freeing prisoners and exterminating/occupiyng cities can make huge changes in one turn, I'll have to balance it a bit also.

    EDIT: just looked at the campaign ai file, I will also have to adjust the threshold used for reputation regarding war decision.

    EDIT 12/01/2021: I did not forfeit this mini-mod, but I'm working on the scripts for the future SSHIP 098 at the moment. This mini-mod is becoming bigger than I thought at first, but I'm still willing to get it right!
    Last edited by Belovèse; January 12, 2021 at 02:50 PM.
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  19. #59
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

    Hello Belo!
    I think a lot of gamers would be interested in improving the diplomacy for version 098.
    Why does your latest download version only have one file?
    I have version 0.2 on my PC which, in addition to descr_faction_standing.txt, also included descr_diplomacy.xml


    Are these versions compatible with SSHIP 098?

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