Belovèse's diplomacy mini-mod

[j.a.luna]

Yes, but what do you have on mine?

Some stuff are partly done, buried in the changelog, and for next version I'll try to have religion be more impactful.

About religion and reputation, is planned add in a future other religions as jews and sunni/shiites muslims?

[Belovèse]

About religion and reputation, is planned add in a future other religions as jews and sunni/shiites muslims?

That's a great idea, for now I only focus on the faction standing, in the near future I may expand on diplomacy files. I don't know about religions, but I agree with you that it would be a nice addition.

[RodriguesSting]

Was thinking, at first, about Orthodox/Catholic relationships. For example, while I can see the pope not caring too much about Catholics waging war on Western Orthodox (the Russians and Serbians), I totally believe he would throw a fit over waging on the Eastern Roman Empire (and maybe Georgia).

[Macaras]

Here is my report after playing 130 turns with Polish. I am playing 0.97 patch E with Belovese fix 0.2, level H/VH. I have some observations:

1. It seems that my reputation is stuck on Dubious for many years now, I am not sure if it is a bug or it just takes time to change. My impression is that in the default diplomacy of 0.97 the reputation was coming back to Mixed much faster.. I maybe wrong, I will play more and will try to verify this.

2. The Pope chill pill is not strong enough, it looks like he needs a double or triple dose. I attached the sav file, you can see that the Papal states took over half of France already..



I saw that in the desc_campaign_ai_db there is following a comment:

// PAPAL FACTION AI PARAMS. REQUIRES SPECIAL STUFF TO NOT ALLOW ATTACKING NON-EXCOMMUNICATED CATHOLIC FACTIONS //
Placed code to prevent attacks on Catholic factions in Terminate Invasions section.

I couldn't find this section though. Maybe its a good idea to forbid the papal state attacking the catholic factions? Regardless, it maybe easier to just change some parameters like: the Pope invades only a faction with despicable reputation.. Anyway, you guys know much better how to fix it.

3. I noticed that after killing the FL of the enemy it automatically means peace.. I had some situations where I was besieging the enemy city, after the battle in which I killed the king, the computer automatically made peace and in the same moment made me declaring another war and only than the city was taken.. the peace and another declaration of war was automatic. You can see it in the file attached conquering Turku. I had also one situation when conquering the besieging settlement in a crusade, the leader was killed, peace with all the crusading factions declared, but crusade was not finished.

4. I was able to build Teutonic knights chapters but the description text looks like a bug:



5. The last thing is that I had many CTD before installing the patch which name we don't say loud (the one about large memory adressing). After installing it I had literally one CTD during many, many hours of playing..

That's it. I was not sure if I should place this post in the Bug section or diplomacy fix, I hope you don't mind its here. Anyway, thanks for the mod I already had many hours of fun

[Belovèse]

First, thanks a lot Macaras for this feedback, very useful to me!

Here is my report after playing 130 turns with Polish. I am playing 0.97 patch E with Belovese fix 0.2, level H/VH. I have some observations:
1. It seems that my reputation is stuck on Dubious for many years now, I am not sure if it is a bug or it just takes time to change. My impression is that in the default diplomacy of 0.97 the reputation was coming back to Mixed much faster.. I maybe wrong, I will play more and will try to verify this.

Well, I removed the difficulty triggers to see how it would evolve without them, as they were pulling all your relations to a fixed level. For my own campaign it's the same, I'm stuck on Dubious. Your impression is correct, as even the very hard difficulty trigger would pull your reputation toward 0.5 each turn (it goes from -1 to 1, with 0 being 'Mixed'). I'll have to make good deeds more rewarding! Btw what kind of played are you, diplomacy-wise: faithfull, expansionnist, backstabing?

2. The Pope chill pill is not strong enough, it looks like he needs a double or triple dose. I attached the sav file, you can see that the Papal states took over half of France already..
I saw that in the desc_campaign_ai_db there is following a comment:
// PAPAL FACTION AI PARAMS. REQUIRES SPECIAL STUFF TO NOT ALLOW ATTACKING NON-EXCOMMUNICATED CATHOLIC FACTIONS //
Placed code to prevent attacks on Catholic factions in Terminate Invasions section.
I couldn't find this section though. Maybe its a good idea to forbid the papal state attacking the catholic factions? Regardless, it maybe easier to just change some parameters like: the Pope invades only a faction with despicable reputation.. Anyway, you guys know much better how to fix it.

Thank for the save, it's very precious, for now I will not touch the diplomacy file but I'll get to it at some point. Seems like it would not be so hard but I have no prior experience with this file, so I'll be careful.

3. I noticed that after killing the FL of the enemy it automatically means peace.. I had some situations where I was besieging the enemy city, after the battle in which I killed the king, the computer automatically made peace and in the same moment made me declaring another war and only than the city was taken.. the peace and another declaration of war was automatic. You can see it in the file attached conquering Turku. I had also one situation when conquering the besieging settlement in a crusade, the leader was killed, peace with all the crusading factions declared, but crusade was not finished.

Well, it's a feature that if the new leader is not charismatic enough (bad traits and stats) the previous diplomatic arrangements are broken. I think it's a good idea but indeed need tuning

4. I was able to build Teutonic knights chapters but the description text looks like a bug
5. The last thing is that I had many CTD before installing the patch which name we don't say loud (the one about large memory adressing). After installing it I had literally one CTD during many, many hours of playing..
That's it. I was not sure if I should place this post in the Bug section or diplomacy fix, I hope you don't mind its here. Anyway, thanks for the mod I already had many hours of fun

4. is clearly a bug! Thanks for the report but we are now on patch F, and I don't know if this but is still present or not.
5. is sadly right. Thanks to gigantus we can try another solution, that can be named: launch the game with this .bat file (just put it on the mod folder), it will make it run on high priority thread on the CPU. Not the same thing as the-one-we-do-not-speek-of, but it improve performance and might also improve stability.

Anyway thanks, hope you'll enjoy the game a lot more!

[Belovèse]

Was thinking, at first, about Orthodox/Catholic relationships. For example, while I can see the pope not caring too much about Catholics waging war on Western Orthodox (the Russians and Serbians), I totally believe he would throw a fit over waging on the Eastern Roman Empire (and maybe Georgia).

If think you're right and I'll keep it in mind for later. At some point I think I'll ask some help from someone that has more knowledge than me about the historical context. For now my next plan is to have the player's actions have more clear impact on his reputation and standing, and make those impacts depending on difficulty.

[Macaras]

First, thanks a lot Macaras for this feedback, very useful to me!

Originally Posted by Macaras
Here is my report after playing 130 turns with Polish. I am playing 0.97 patch E with Belovese fix 0.2, level H/VH. I have some observations:
1. It seems that my reputation is stuck on Dubious for many years now, I am not sure if it is a bug or it just takes time to change. My impression is that in the default diplomacy of 0.97 the reputation was coming back to Mixed much faster.. I maybe wrong, I will play more and will try to verify this.



Well, I removed the difficulty triggers to see how it would evolve without them, as they were pulling all your relations to a fixed level. For my own campaign it's the same, I'm stuck on Dubious. Your impression is correct, as even the very hard difficulty trigger would pull your reputation toward 0.5 each turn (it goes from -1 to 1, with 0 being 'Mixed'). I'll have to make good deeds more rewarding! Btw what kind of played are you, diplomacy-wise: faithfull, expansionnist, backstabing?

Usually I play very faithfully and chivalrously. This time, however, I changed just to see how it works. I am continuing the Polish campaign and I just exterminated two cities and killed some heretics + one Russian Heir. My faction leader received 8 dread points in two turns, but my reputation is still Dubious...

[Belovèse]

Usually I play very faithfully and chivalrously. This time, however, I changed just to see how it works. I am continuing the Polish campaign and I just exterminated two cities and killed some heretics + one Russian Heir. My faction leader received 8 dread points in two turns, but my reputation is still Dubious...

Yep, I think it should have a greater impact. I'll try something for the version 0.3! Thanks for the feedback.

[Macaras]

As Gigantus says: one is happy to be od service 👍Thank you too

[Jurand of Cracow]

teutonic knights - description will be updated in the next release, thanks for the hint!

[Gigantus]

@jurand, to respond to your post in the bug report thread, I saw the "hotspots of conflicts" section and also thought I could be expanded. In fact, we could merge in it the mechanics already in place for the reconquista and spain relations.

Spoiler for lotsa code stuff: 

Trigger moorsCordoba
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType moors
    and I_SettlementOwner Cordoba = moors

    FactionStanding factions { spain } normalise -0.8 50
    
;------------------------------------------
Trigger moorsCordoba2
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType france
    and I_SettlementOwner Cordoba = moors

    FactionStanding factions { spain } normalise 0.0 50
    
;------------------------------------------
Trigger moorsValencia
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType moors
    and I_SettlementOwner Valencia = moors

    FactionStanding factions { aragon } normalise -0.8 50
    
;------------------------------------------
Trigger moorsToledo
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType spain
    and I_SettlementOwner Toledo = moors

    FactionStanding factions { moors } normalise 0.0 50
    
;------------------------------------------
Trigger moorsToledo2
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType portugal
    and I_SettlementOwner Toledo = moors

    FactionStanding factions { moors } normalise 0.0 50   
    
;------------------------------------------
Trigger moorsCoimbra
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType portugal
    and I_SettlementOwner Coimbra = moors

    FactionStanding factions { moors } normalise 0.2 50

    
;------------------------------------------
Trigger ReconquistaSuccess
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType moors
  and not I_SettlementOwner Cordoba = moors
  and not I_SettlementOwner Murcia = moors
  and not I_SettlementOwner Valencia = moors

    FactionStanding factions { aragon, spain, portugal } normalise 0.0 75 
                
;------------------------------------------
Trigger ReconquistaDone
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType moors
    and not I_SettlementOwner Sevilla = moors
  and not I_SettlementOwner Cordoba = moors
  and not I_SettlementOwner Murcia = moors
  and not I_SettlementOwner Valencia = moors
  and not I_SettlementOwner Granada = moors

    FactionStanding factions { spain, portugal, aragon } normalise 0.0 50 
               
;------------------------------------------
Trigger spainGranada
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType spain
    and I_SettlementOwner Granada = spain
  and I_TurnNumber < 250

    FactionStanding factions { moors } normalise -0.8 75 
    
;------------------------------------------
Trigger aragonGranada
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType aragon
    and I_SettlementOwner Granada = aragon
  and I_TurnNumber < 250

    FactionStanding factions { moors } normalise -0.8 75 
;------------------------------------------
Trigger portugalGranada
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionType portugal
    and I_SettlementOwner Granada = portugal
  and I_TurnNumber < 250

    FactionStanding factions { moors } normalise -0.8 75

@Gigantus, if you wander here, my main question is: is it wanted that the following trigger would add up? If I undestand well, whenever 0086_Update_Tall_Poppy1 fires, Tall_poppy2 and Tall_puppy3 would also fire, leading to the effects to add up.

; Make factions get a case of the 'tall poppy' syndrome.  get narky about the larger factions
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0086_Update_Tall_Poppy1
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScorePercent overall > 80
        and FactionScoreRank overall <= 1

    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -0.5 75

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0087_Update_Tall_Poppy2
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScorePercent overall > 70
        and FactionScoreRank overall <= 3

    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -0.5 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0088_Update_Tall_Poppy3
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScorePercent overall > 50
        and FactionScoreRank overall <= 5

    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -0.5 125

Right now I'm play testing this:

Trigger 0086_Update_Tall_Poppy1
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart
    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScorePercent overall > 80
        and FactionScoreRank overall < 2

    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -1.0 75

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0087_Update_Tall_Poppy2
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart
    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScorePercent overall > 70
        and FactionScoreRank overall < 4
         and FactionScoreRank overall > 1
    
    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -1.0 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0088_Update_Tall_Poppy3
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart
    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScorePercent overall > 50
        and FactionScoreRank overall < 6
         and FactionScoreRank overall > 3

    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -1.0 125

Instead of an 'absolute' range (less\more then) you have a defined range (between). No overlap there. I have to admit that I am not aware what exactly are the underlying criteria for Rank and Percentage, withwnar might have a better understanding I think.
I do have to admit I am not 100% sure how the second value works, but I suppose the higher the number the more the slider moves toward the -1.0 position? If so then it might seem a quick descend to the 'untouchable' realm of faction standing, akin to becoming the Dark Lord of Mordor

[Belovèse]

Instead of an 'absolute' range (less\more then) you have a defined range (between). No overlap there. I have to admit that I am not aware what exactly are the underlying criteria for Rank and Percentage, withwnar might have a better understanding I think.

Thanks, to be 100% sure: in this version both triggers would fire if FactionRank is under 2 right?

Trigger 0086_Update_Tall_Poppy1     WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScoreRank overall <= 1

    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -0.5 75

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0087_Update_Tall_Poppy2
    WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

    Condition FactionHasRank
        and FactionScoreRank overall <= 3

    FactionStanding exclude_factions { slave } normalise -0.5 100

I do have to admit I am not 100% sure how the second value works, but I suppose the higher the number the more the slider moves toward the -1.0 position? If so then it might seem a quick descend to the 'untouchable' realm of faction standing, akin to becoming the Dark Lord of Mordor

Actually in "normalise X Y" it's the opposite: the higher Y, the smaller the change. The formula is
(new value) = (X - (actual value))/Y

Thanks for stopping by!

[Gigantus]

The first token is a bit overkill: while the rank can be 1 it cannot less then that, no harm done. And no, both triggers will only fire together for rank 1 (and all the way beyond zero ), the lowest common denominator.

[Belovèse]

The first token is a bit overkill: while the rank can be 1 it cannot less then that, no harm done. And no, both triggers will only fire together for rank 1 (and all the way beyond zero ), the lowest common denominator.

Thanks, the "under 4" was a in fact typo, I corrected it to "under 2". I agree it's overkill, I'll get to it at some point but for now I try to find all these non-untended effects and error, and will see first how it impact the game.

[kostic]

Small report on a campaign with denmark:
Diplomatic relations seem logical to me, but I'm surprised that in VH / VH mode I have always been able to easily obtain alliances (with Hre and England) as well as trade card information exchanges.

[Belovèse]

Small report on a campaign with denmark:
Diplomatic relations seem logical to me, but I'm surprised that in VH / VH mode I have always been able to easily obtain alliances (with Hre and England) as well as trade card information exchanges.

Thanks for the report, about the alliances and map information exchange it's on another file tha I'll try moding when I'm through the faction standing stuff. But I agree it's a bit easy...

[RodriguesSting]

I think a jewish religion might be very useful, not as a playable factions, but rather an internal mechanic. Imagine it like that, a special set of buildings that improve internal trade and could serve to give good traits to certain governors, but would require a minimum level of Jewish religion in the settlement to be built. It could work to keep itself on the required level to provide the benefits, but having, say, a cardinal in the region, would force it down. So you can either make sure to have absolute religious hegemony in a region, or, at the price of some happiness and the risk of getting some "riské" traits and ancilliaries to local governors, and POSSIBLY papal (or noble depending on faction) disapproval, have a nice economic and educational boost.

[Belovèse]

I think a jewish religion might be very useful, not as a playable factions, but rather an internal mechanic. Imagine it like that, a special set of buildings that improve internal trade and could serve to give good traits to certain governors, but would require a minimum level of Jewish religion in the settlement to be built. It could work to keep itself on the required level to provide the benefits, but having, say, a cardinal in the region, would force it down. So you can either make sure to have absolute religious hegemony in a region, or, at the price of some happiness and the risk of getting some "riské" traits and ancilliaries to local governors, and POSSIBLY papal (or noble depending on faction) disapproval, have a nice economic and educational boost.

That's nice ideas we might try later, a first step for me would be to include the religion itself in the game as I don't know anyting about modding religions in this game.

[RodriguesSting]

That's nice ideas we might try later, a first step for me would be to include the religion itself in the game as I don't know anyting about modding religions in this game.

EB2 has many examples of buildings that provide bonuses or troops based on the region's religions levels, not even necessarily the faction's religion/culture. These could work as basic templates.

[j.a.luna]

That's nice ideas we might try later, a first step for me would be to include the religion itself in the game as I don't know anyting about modding religions in this game.

Yes, I proposed a long time ago to add "Jewish neighborhoods" to the game with 3 different levels of upgrades, "1. Jewish quarter, 2. Jewish neighborhood, and 3. Jewish ghetto or community", simulating the increase of Jewish population in a settlement and its importance within him.
It would have advantages and disadvantages that you would have to choose from, similar to the current Italian trade quarters.
Benefits such as increasing trade income, more wealth for the city with its different levels (+200, +500, +1000) for its famous bankers and merchants.
Besides adding a small percentage of public health to your city (+ 5%?), Jews were also famous doctors who served Catholic and Muslim kings.
and as inconveniences you would increase the percentage of Jewish religion in your city, discontent among the population (+ unrest) and public disorder. (People of other religions did not like them and many people were envious of their goods).
In other similar games like the Bellum Crucis I have seen something similar and it would be historical to add this religion to the game since they were present in many places in the Middle Ages.
On the other hand what we talk about the Sunnies and Shiites, for Muslims. It would be very interesting to add it (Egyptians) to see the disputes between them. (as well as Orthodox and Catholics).
I think the idea is well captured, the only thing would be add a new building with its 3 levels and add these new religions.

On the other hand, as for the Italian Trade Quarters, I also proposed adding a military unit or 2 so that they could be recruited from this building. Similar to what happens for the Hanseatic League Quarters (which have Baltic Crossbowmen)
Add typical Italian units, such as the "marinae" or Italian sailors simulating the influence and defense of their "colonies" by the Italian commercial maritime republics. Also add professional crossbowmen such as "sergeant crossbowmen" and later crossbowmen with pavés, due to the famous use of the crossbow by the Italians (especially Genoese and Venetians).