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Thread: Simple question about god-human relations

  1. #21
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    According to you, precisely what God intends. Its not up to me. Its almost as though I am a meaningless automaton, just God playing with himself.
    Cyclops,

    Although God is in total control He still gave you the means to think, indeed He handed us all over to sin, the thing that in our lives control us. We don't know what our own destination will be but we still have the means to figure out what it could be if one only had the desire to seek it out.

  2. #22
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post

    It’s a nice book end to the Great Controversy, which began and ended with man’s defiance and God’s judgement. While it seems unfair to mortal minds now to suppose someone could be damned merely for not following God’s commandments, the fact those who do not will still make the conscious choice to follow Satan and defy God in the end demonstrates there is no repentance and therefore no salvation for them. The wicked will make that choice with full awareness of their deeds and the consequences, just like Adam and Eve.

    God could have just judged and killed Adam and Eve following their disobedience. That would certainly have been the most efficient course of action, per the OP's question. Just erase and start over. Instead, he gave Eve and her seed a second chance. The "point" of salvation is to save, and the only way to save man from the fate of death that is the consequence of his disobedience to God is person by person, individual by individual, choice by choice.
    The question was why have people you - as omnipotent, as is the suggestion - already know will not follow you, be destroyed for doing something you already know they will do. Satan's existence also is allowed by god in this religion, so it makes no sense to argue that satan is responsible for ruin; is satan some kind of error in the code which could not be erased any other way? Couldn't be, unless god is not omnipotent.
    Also, I should note that you shouldn't speak of "bad faith", for you shouldn't be of the very false impression that this is a religious thread. It is one about logic. If someone believes, they'll believe whatever; and sadly this comes at a cost, for one has to keep forming the defense of positions that appear non-defensible.

    The last thing I want is some fight between religious and logical arguments. I respect everyone's right to be religious. No one is requested to participate in the thread if they feel they see things in a very special way which is without logic (obviously a "personal logic" is there, but it isn't compatible with the more communicative one).
    Last edited by Kyriakos; November 08, 2020 at 07:23 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  3. #23

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos
    The question was why have people you - as omnipotent, as is the suggestion - already know will not follow you, be destroyed for doing something you already know they will do. Satan's existence also is allowed by god in this religion, so it makes no sense to argue that satan is responsible for ruin; is satan some kind of error in the code which could not be erased any other way? Couldn't be, unless god is not omnipotent.
    While it seems unfair to mortal minds now to suppose someone could be damned merely for not following God’s commandments, the fact those who do not will still make the conscious choice to follow Satan and defy God in the end demonstrates there is no repentance and therefore no salvation for them. The wicked will make that choice with full awareness of their deeds and the consequences, just like Adam and Eve.

    God could have just judged and killed Adam and Eve following their disobedience. That would certainly have been the most efficient course of action. Just erase and start over. Instead, he gave Eve and her seed a second chance. The "point" of salvation is to save, and the only way to save man from the fate of death that is the consequence of his disobedience to God is person by person, individual by individual, choice by choice.
    Also, I should note that you shouldn't speak of "bad faith", for you shouldn't be of the very false impression that this is a religious thread. It is one about logic. If someone believes, they'll believe whatever; and sadly this comes at a cost, for one has to keep forming the defense of positions that appear non-defensible.
    By “bad faith,” I’m referring to the logical routine of asking hypothetical questions in such a way that produces the answers one has predetermined to be the case. The Bible explains the plan of salvation based on premises established by man’s choice to disobey God. God’s foreknowledge of that choice does not imply that he predetermined it.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    I think it certainly does, and I presented an analogy for it. To use another one: If you know that unit X in Total War will always be killed by unit Y, you can still send it to battle, but accusing the unit that it did poorly and got killed would be irrational. Likewise, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, said god already knows who would fail to whatever commanded so as to be "saved", so cannot logically accuse anyone who was predestined to fail, of failing.
    Anyway, since you read the bible, I am also sure you are aware of the many cases where the old testament god (and sometimes also the new one, in the acts of the apostles) kills people on the spot, without waiting for any change. I guess then it was ruled they woudn't change, even if they were infants - but god should have known that before-hand, one has to suppose...
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #25

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I think it certainly does, and I presented an analogy for it. To use another one: If you know that unit X in Total War will always be killed by unit Y, you can still send it to battle, but accusing the unit that it did poorly and got killed would be irrational. Likewise, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, said god already knows who would fail to whatever commanded so as to be "saved", so cannot logically accuse anyone who was predestined to fail, of failing.
    Anyway, since you read the bible, I am also sure you are aware of the many cases where the old testament god (and sometimes also the new one, in the acts of the apostles) kills people on the spot, without waiting for any change. I guess then it was ruled they woudn't change, even if they were infants - but god should have known that before-hand, one has to suppose...
    No one is predestined to do anything though. There’s a Calvinist argument to that effect but it’s a matter of inference rather than exegesis. Supposing you know the outcome of the next sports game and have the power to change it doesn’t mean you’re predestining the outcome by declining to alter it. Man’s choice is what determines his salvation or damnation.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  6. #26
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    So you are diminishing the christian god to the status of some oracle or a future/past-traveler? I thought this god was omnipotent. Apparently you don't agree he is omnipotent, which should make you a heretic.

    It is the problem with religious arguments; they can be attacked from all angles. It's a good example of this, for even if one would not insist on the glaring inconsistency regarding omnipotence or lower status, you'd still be exposed in your argument about "no predestination" by the old testament god massacring the infants of an entire population. I mean, if they could change and god could not intervene, surely killing them was just irrational and genocidal. But if they couldn't change (predestination), why allow them to live up to that brief point in their life only to massacre them?
    Last edited by Kyriakos; November 08, 2020 at 10:06 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #27

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    So you are diminishing the christian god to the status of some oracle or a future/past-traveler? I thought this god was omnipotent. Apparently you don't agree he is omnipotent, which should make you a heretic.

    It is the problem with religious arguments; they can be attacked from all angles. It's a good example of this, for even if one would not insist on the glaring inconsistency regarding omnipotence or lower status, you'd still be exposed in your argument about "no predestination" by the old testament god massacring the infants of an entire population. I mean, if they could change and god could not intervene, surely killing them was just irrational and genocidal. But if they couldn't change (predestination), why allow them to live up to that brief point in their life only to massacre them?
    I don’t see the purpose of putting words in my mouth. You’re appealing to the consequences of your own logic, not what I’ve said nor what the Bible says.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  8. #28
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Maybe it is because one of us doesn't approach this as something personal, but as an examination of some relations in a system. Anyone can create (conscious, half-conscious or subconscious) defenses for claims that require massive built-up of twisted "reasoning".
    For what it's worth, I asked very specific things. If you believe there is no predestination in the christian religion, how do you account for the massacre of children? (not that one can defend it even with predestination, but at least then it stops being an issue of not even allowing humans the ability to "decide for themselves").
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #29

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Maybe it is because one of us doesn't approach this as something personal, but as an examination of some relations in a system. Anyone can create (conscious, half-conscious or subconscious) defenses for claims that require massive built-up of twisted "reasoning".
    For what it's worth, I asked very specific things. If you believe there is no predestination in the christian religion, how do you account for the massacre of children? (not that one can defend it even with predestination, but at least then it stops being an issue of not even allowing humans the ability to "decide for themselves").
    All Ive done is reference the Bible, nothing personal about it. Predestination as a theological belief is unrelated to the judgements visited on Israel’s enemies in the Old Testament.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  10. #30
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    OT god found Jesus?
    Anyway, I think this is not going anywhere.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  11. #31
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Concerning man's deliverance from sin there is not one jot or tittle that says man has the choice of saving himself, why? Becuae Jesus Christ said, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." The work of salvation is all of God in His Three Persons. From the fall man was dead in his sin. The minute Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they became Spiritually dead, physical death being some time away and that is why they couldn't get back into the garden. It fell to God to draw Abel to Christ and so he became the first saint or what is now known as Christian.

    Salvation is all about the calling of God wherein the hardened heart is broken by the work of the Holy Spirit leading the recipient to realising that Jesus Christ did die for them on that cross to take away the curse of sin from off them. The broken heart is then followed by repentence and that by regeneration into a new life in Christ. At that point the Holy Spirit indwells them and the Faith of Jesus Christ is imputed to them ensuring that they now belong to Jesus Christ with the hope that one day they too will be resurrected to be with Him. Peter in one of his letters says, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your family...." and then deals out the important point of that message, " as many as the Lord God shall call." It never was about the choice of man, why? Because only God can save otherwise you take away God's Sovereignty and put it in the hands of fallen men.

  12. #32
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    God’s foreknowledge of that choice does not imply that he predetermined it.
    I think it does when one factors in his omnipotence: He knows what was to happen, and knew what was to happen from before he set up the conditions from which these eventualities were to emerge, he also had the power to alter them, he chooses not to, which is completely equivalent with causal predetermination.

    No one is predestined to do anything though. There’s a Calvinist argument to that effect but it’s a matter of inference rather than exegesis. Supposing you know the outcome of the next sports game and have the power to change it doesn’t mean you’re predestining the outcome by declining to alter it. Man’s choice is what determines his salvation or damnation.
    I think the factor of God being a timeless being gives significant credence to the Calvinist position. Not only does God know what will happen, from his perspective it is already done.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  13. #33

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    I think it does when one factors in his omnipotence: He knows what was to happen, and knew what was to happen from before he set up the conditions from which these eventualities were to emerge, he also had the power to alter them, he chooses not to, which is completely equivalent with causal predetermination.
    This doesn’t comport with what we know about the Bible and the story of man’s fall. It merely opens up endless logical appeals to consequence (why did God create man at all, why allow Adam and Eve to choose to sin, to reproduce, why exist, why do anything)....exegesis from the text necessitates man’s choice as the determining factor in why things proceded the way they did from the moment of disobedience. If man had obeyed, God’s perfect world would not have been disrupted. Man disobeyed, so God made a Plan B as a consequence of that choice, rather than simply cancelling the whole thing, as he certainly could have. Knowing the result of man’s choice =/= causing it. Because of God’s love for mankind, he set in motion a plan to save each and every human being, the seed of Eve, from death.
    I think the factor of God being a timeless being gives significant credence to the Calvinist position. Not only does God know what will happen, from his perspective it is already done.
    The problem with predestination isn’t that it’s illogical, it’s that it is unconfirmed by the Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 8
    Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    What God has predestined is to conform those who love him and seek after him to the moral likeness (εἰκών) of Jesus, who died and rose again in order to make possible the plan of salvation. Foreknowledge of man’s choices doesn’t mean he predetermined who will love him and who won’t. The Bible specifically tells us that God searches individual hearts and minds, and knows those who love him as his children.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  14. #34
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Usually one looks for inconsistencies in a system, not look at the system, claim it cannot be inconsistent no matter what and proceed to look for errors in logic itself.
    In your post there is a new inconsistency: you say that god wanted a perfect world for man, but had to prepare a plan b in the case man made it impossible. By virtue of continuity an omnipotent being already knows the "perfect world" plan will fail, so in essence there is only the plan b, which becomes plan a.
    Last edited by Kyriakos; November 09, 2020 at 05:14 PM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  15. #35

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Usually one looks for inconsistencies in a system, not look at the system, claim it cannot be inconsistent no matter what and proceed to look for errors in logic itself.
    In your post there is a new inconsistency: you say that god wanted a perfect world for man, but had to prepare a plan b in the case man made it impossible. By virtue of continuity an omnipotent being already knows the "perfect world" plan will fail, so in essence there is only the plan b, which becomes plan a.
    Man’s free will isn’t an inconsistency. You’re welcome to equate foreknowledge with predetermination in order to facilitate your rhetorical dichotomies, but the Bible is another matter.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  16. #36
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    This doesn’t comport with what we know about the Bible and the story of man’s fall. It merely opens up endless logical appeals to consequence (why did God create man at all, why allow Adam and Eve to choose to sin, to reproduce, why exist, why do anything)....exegesis from the text necessitates man’s choice as the determining factor in why things proceded the way they did from the moment of disobedience. If man had obeyed, God’s perfect world would not have been disrupted. Man disobeyed, so God made a Plan B as a consequence of that choice, rather than simply cancelling the whole thing, as he certainly could have. Knowing the result of man’s choice =/= causing it. Because of God’s love for mankind, he set in motion a plan to save each and every human being, the seed of Eve, from death.

    The problem with predestination isn’t that it’s illogical, it’s that it is unconfirmed by the Bible.

    What God has predestined is to conform those who love him and seek after him to the moral likeness (εἰκών) of Jesus, who died and rose again in order to make possible the plan of salvation. Foreknowledge of man’s choices doesn’t mean he predetermined who will love him and who won’t. The Bible specifically tells us that God searches individual hearts and minds, and knows those who love him as his children.
    Legio_Italica,

    The main problem for man is that he thinks our story is about us whereas it is not. Rather the story of creation is all about God, Him being the Author of life. Think of it, before the worlds were made, God the Son was predetermined to be the Lamb of God sacrificed for all those predetermined to be His and their names were written into a Book called the Book of Life. That is predestination for what? For God's good pleasure. Everything in our existence centres around God in His Three Persons and the wonderful way He works His love into a people plunged into darkness through the crucifixion of His beloved Son, Jesus Christ.

  17. #37
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Man’s free will isn’t an inconsistency. You’re welcome to equate foreknowledge with predetermination in order to facilitate your rhetorical dichotomies, but the Bible is another matter.

    So you are arguing that the bible, assuming it at least consistently presents what you claim it does (an issue by itself), does so deliberately out of having calculated a consistent system?
    This is a rhetorical question, btw. I am just noting that this isn't likely to be true.

    One can always claim that it is an axiom that it is true (cause it was the word of god etc), but by definition an axiom has to be commonly accepted to be used in any proof or examination of a problem.

    Imagine a world where (for example) some stories by Lovecraft were taken to be true as an axiom. You'd have people trying to argue that logically Cthulhu exists and has the qualities described by that writer, and that there can't be any inconsistency or fault anywhere. Even apparently problematic passages and different claims in some of the stories, would have to be taken as allusions to some deeper truth of the system, for it can never be at fault.
    Last edited by Kyriakos; November 10, 2020 at 06:46 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  18. #38
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Knowing the result of man’s choice =/= causing it. Because of God’s love for mankind, he set in motion a plan to save each and every human being, the seed of Eve, from death.
    Knowing the result combined with the power to influence it (while choosing not to) is absolutely equivalent with causing/choosing that precise result.

    The problem with predestination isn’t that it’s illogical, it’s that it is unconfirmed by the Bible.
    God's omniscience, omnipotence and timelessness combined makes predestination undeniable. If one were to consider these characteristics individually, then freewill can be fit into the gaps, but together one cannot make a choice without the consent of God which in effect means that God chooses for you and merely permits a superficial illusory veneer of free-will.

    The Bible specifically tells us that God searches individual hearts and minds, and knows those who love him as his children.
    As God is timeless one is forced to conclude that that search is already completed, the elect are chosen and God's judgement is absolute.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  19. #39

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Knowing the result combined with the power to influence it (while choosing not to) is absolutely equivalent with causing/choosing that precise result.



    God's omniscience, omnipotence and timelessness combined makes predestination undeniable. If one were to consider these characteristics individually, then freewill can be fit into the gaps, but together one cannot make a choice without the consent of God which in effect means that God chooses for you and merely permits a superficial illusory veneer of free-will.



    As God is timeless one is forced to conclude that that search is already completed, the elect are chosen and God's judgement is absolute.
    Denying free will is certainly a logical consequence of predestination, but it’s not Biblical. If the Bible is literally God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), then it is the reference point for these kinds of questions from a Christian perspective. While there are many Christians who subscribe to predestination, the Bible itself doesn’t confirm such premises. The equivalence between foreknowledge and predetermination is circular in nature; ie God is all knowing and all powerful therefore man has no real free will because God is all knowing and all powerful. The causal relationship simply isn’t there though. That’s the point.

    Again, man’s proven ability to directly obey or disobey the will of an omnipresent and omniscient God, and furthermore, to accept or reject his plan of salvation (the entire premise of the great controversy) is evidence of man’s free will. One can only turn to the Bible for instruction/explanation. The premise is reiterated throughout Scripture:
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 2
    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
    Quote Originally Posted by John 7
    14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
    15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
    16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation 3
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 16
    24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    Quote Originally Posted by John 3
    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acts 16
    25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

    26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

    27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

    28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

    29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  20. #40
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    The equivalence between foreknowledge and predetermination is circular in nature; ie God is all knowing and all powerful therefore man has no real free will because God is all knowing and all powerful. The causal relationship simply isn’t there though. That’s the point.
    That is not a circular argument. In math it would be the claim that any F(x) (any function of x) has to take into account the input from x. If man's existence is in any way a function of god, then man is not independent of god in any way.
    The point here is the absolute, which you won't easily find in material relations, but will always find in math.

    Edit (an example of a circular argument)
    Descartes claimed, infamously, that (the christian, catholic) god must exist, because if he didn't then no one could feel certain they are right in what they are thinking when they feel they are correct, for god (for some reason, according to Descartes) is the source of man's ability (?) to be correct when they have tried to the best of their ability to think through something and cannot find any error with it.
    In a circular argument you basically use a hypothesis which itself needs proof, to supposedly prove something else.
    Last edited by Kyriakos; November 10, 2020 at 10:17 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










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