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Thread: Simple question about god-human relations

  1. #81
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Then again Dante wasn't even aware that a minotaur has the head of a bull and the body of a man, instead of the centaur with bull-lower body he wrote about ^_^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  2. #82
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Then again Dante wasn't even aware that a minotaur has the head of a bull and the body of a man, instead of the centaur with bull-lower body he wrote about ^_^
    Yes but the Greeks were pretty flexible. If they liked his poem thay likely would not care at the alteration/mistake. Nobody complained that Aeschylus' Prometheus story + Pandora is very different form Hesiod's. (OK well its Athens somebody did but if recall he did win that year - also you never know as Demosthenes said you could loose with the best play if somebody had a better budget)
    Last edited by conon394; November 23, 2020 at 09:52 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #83
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    I don't agree that if a god exists, they somehow have to be benevolent. It also depends on what kind of intellect that god has. In the unlikely case it is something similar to human-type intellect (with human passions and logic), then I don't see why a human who is vastly more powerful than normal humans, has to never like seeing you killed for fun.

    In my view the christian/jewish god is mostly a personification of a salvation mechanism, and as such morality is thrown in so that anyone can strive to be behaving like that god commands, since morality is something everyone has a notion of. It would be a lot more difficult if that god asked that you prove the twin prime conjecture in order to be saved - but not less believable, imo.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  4. #84
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Hmm I not sure I can disagree there is no reason to presuppose a benevolent god. Or at least I think it requires true duality so that the will of the good is thwarted by and equal opposite - assuming we are talking about a near omniscient and powerful god who could otherwise intervene. The god of the OT is not particularity benevolent.

    twin prime conjecture
    That would be a harsh god indeed.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #85
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." The world that God so loved is not this fallen one, rather the world He created in six wonderful days into which He placed Adam and Eve and all the other creatures. Their fall was so great in that it brought about death and destruction meaning that even creation itself has to be replaced by one that God can love again and done so throught the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. On that great day when Jesus comes back the old creation will be gone and a new heaven and earth will come into being quite unblemished as the first was at the beginning before the fall. Its inhabitants will be all those who were washed in the blood of the Lamb given the chance to life that Adam denied them.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    The rejection of a benevolent God, or rather, the idea that God “chose” sin for man, isn’t predicated on the eternal aspects of God, but on an a priori rejection of man’s agency. While there are Christian theologies that subscribe to such a view, it is unsupported by the Bible.

  7. #87
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Also basics you are still dodging my post on obvious transitional entities. You made a QED claim with no proof I show proof and you go dark?
    Last edited by conon394; November 24, 2020 at 02:26 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #88
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Also basics you are still dodging my post on obvious transitional entities. You made a QED claim with no proof I show proof and you go dark?
    conon394,

    There are no obvious transitional entities, never have been. For sure some have tried to make it so but these have all been debunked. So, if evolution is an ongoing thing where are all the transitionals that surely must be obvious? Why don't we see them actually happening today? Never mind what is assumed in the fossils where are the tranitionals that are happening right now amongst all the creatures on the planet?

  9. #89
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    There are no obvious transitional entities, never have been. For sure some have tried to make it so but these have all been debunked. So, if evolution is an ongoing thing where are all the transitionals that surely must be obvious? Why don't we see them actually happening today? Never mind what is assumed in the fossils where are the tranitionals that are happening right now amongst all the creatures on the planet?
    Again to say it as fact without evidence is a not proof.

    Again Teosinte. Under isolation and selective pressure you go from a grass to modern corn. The intermediate stages are well represented in heirloom varieties and the archeological record. The genetics are clear. Moreover you could watch the opposite happen sans the human selective pressure the current commercial varieties would collapse quickly into extinction. Although some traites like color might survive in Teosinte if they had no adverse cost

    Again Genetics shows as I said you are a transitional.

    Why don't we see them actually happening today?
    Because we don't live for geological epochs. Also critically you have to recall that evolution is good enough not some thing where things always change. There ferns that have been unchanged for millions of years because they are good enough. The Dodo might have developed changes to its environment if the selection pressure it faced was say a gradual climate change or random mutation produce some truly useful new trait. But unfortunately for them they faced a sudden shock of humans and their domesticated animals and co habitation friends (rats) that acted in time scale that is a blink of eye to evolution. Thus result extinction.

    What do expect anyway for the transitional you seem to want and in what species. Provide an example (OK a theoretical example in your mind)
    Last edited by conon394; November 25, 2020 at 05:21 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #90
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Afaik there are minor observable elements of transition even in current humans, such as some bone structure (?). That said, maybe the actual goal of evolution isn't to preserve, but to kill as many and as fast as possible
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  11. #91
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    conon394,

    So, no answer to show evolutionary transitions at all. There's no more whales walking on land to become something else. Nope not a sausage on anything else just assumption with the help of billions of years. So rather than believing that God made all things to its kind in the days of creation we are to assume that evolution has to be the real story or else. Again there are no transitionals from one kind into another, never has been and never will be.

  12. #92
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    So, no answer to show evolutionary transitions at all. There's no more whales walking on land to become something else. Nope not a sausage on anything else just assumption with the help of billions of years. So rather than believing that God made all things to its kind in the days of creation we are to assume that evolution has to be the real story or else. Again there are no transitionals from one kind into another, never has been and never will be.

    You don't need to look that far to notice change in a species. Prehistoric remains don't have the same structure that modern humans do.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  13. #93
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    So, no answer to show evolutionary transitions at all. There's no more whales walking on land to become something else. Nope not a sausage on anything else just assumption with the help of billions of years. So rather than believing that God made all things to its kind in the days of creation we are to assume that evolution has to be the real story or else. Again there are no transitionals from one kind into another, never has been and never will be.
    Very odd reply.

    There's no more whales walking on land to become something else
    They are extinct you know but do show in the fossil record.

    So rather than believing that God made all things to its kind in the days of creation we are to assume that evolution has to be the real story or else
    Well you see that is not the case there or there in science no punishment for not 'believing' its simply a system for understanding the world via the observable evidence. Its rather you who have a demand for belief (quite with verifiable evidence) and have the or else clause. But than again you have to admit there what at least 5 or more different major religions that think the OT as true either very literately or somewhat allegorical. And none you can agree on that. Also of course the vast majority of people for most human history to the present are out side the OT camp but do/did have religions beliefs.

    Thus sorry your particular spin on the OT is thus a one of many and quite possibly a minority, and since your interpretation of the OT conflicts with the demonstrable observable evidence I see no reason to feeling warm and fuzzy about the creation story/myth of a tiny Semitic people from the bronze/iron age (but written down a bit later at different times by different people).

    Again there are no transitionals from one kind into another, never has been and never will be.
    Glad you enjoy such closed mindedness. Never realized it provided the power of prognostication.

    Again there are many transitional forms in the fossil record. There is also fairly solid evidence of moderate gradual change - but it not a the method of speciation. But problematically I think is you assume all evolution is that way. Rather for significant change we need isolated populations and isolated selective pressure (and of course some random mutation or group). If its humans you go on about for transnationals you should recall just how tiny the population of humans was. In any case I cant see how you can fail to accept Home Erectus and its variants as a transitional. The fight over Homo floresiensis is still a thing but I don't think the weight of evidence really can sustain the microcephalic humans argument at present (1). In any case It would seem to fit your desire for a transitional seeming a decedent of Erectus (or possibly Habilis). It exist nowhere in a fossil record from Africa to destination. Also it would appear to have even developed some bone forms that are closer to earlier ancestors australopiths.

    THus my point the problem is the same methods of actions and understanding and data produce modern corn from a grass you only call a nuisance weed or possibly ornamental if you had planted it. Believing god made everything perfect in 6 days does not.



    1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...78301916303631
    Last edited by conon394; November 26, 2020 at 10:34 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    But Satan put fossils in the ground in order to lead people astray. And that's why a loving God will torture them FOREVER.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    conon394,

    The big problem with evolution is that there is a recompense if one doesn't believe it and it starts in the classroom with teachers who ridicule pupils for believing that God made all things. Then there are the people who are castigated in the work place because they too also believe that God made all things in six glorious days. And then when one gets to the scientific community we get the same results wherein scientists who also believe are given the same treatment, why? Because from their own studies and experimentation the see evolution as having no basis in fact at all. The pictures made of evolution are false and as evidence worthless.

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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    in your opinion.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  17. #97
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    The big problem with evolution is that there is a recompense if one doesn't believe it and it starts in the classroom with teachers who ridicule pupils for believing that God made all things. Then there are the people who are castigated in the work place because they too also believe that God made all things in six glorious days. And then when one gets to the scientific community we get the same results wherein scientists who also believe are given the same treatment, why? Because from their own studies and experimentation the see evolution as having no basis in fact at all. The pictures made of evolution are false and as evidence worthless.
    First in the scientific community I am not sure what you mean that you get 'ridiculed' for tying to do or in publishing bad science - that's the point. I have yet to see a study that falsifies evolution that is not in fact more or worthless. Nor have you offered up any to that effect. You need a fairly hard skin to work in science.

    I don't recall hard core creationists in school suffering any particular ridicule or rather that it exceed the amount general ridicule a large body of kids jammed together produces. Certainly if you use creationist answers in science classes you likely will get poor grades. Perhaps best to keep religion like politics out of work.


    The problem is of course your creation myth is neither explanatory or predictive outside of belief. It cannot be validated over any other creation myth and it can't say justify a plant going again from Teosinte to modern corn. But the sciences such as Genetics and evolution can explain the alterations and also predict what will happen if humans remove thier selective pressure on the plant.
    Last edited by conon394; November 27, 2020 at 04:10 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #98
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    conon394,

    So a plant called teosinte becomes another plant, mark that, called corn which is not a crossing of one kind into another rather adaptation which every kind is able to do. Try crossing a teosinte with a farmer to produce a self propogating harvested food and then we might see a transitional but then as silly as my suggestion is so is evolution. Concerning scientists who believe in creation, it wouldn't matter how many I named but you would call them bad scientists so I'll just mention one, James Ture.

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    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    I really think that you can't have one person speaking religion and the other non-religion. It's like two different languages. At any rate my thread wasn't posted with religious arguments in mind - insofar as they aren't characterized by logical continuity.

    If I was of the view that if I didn't defend religion I would be obliterated/go to hell, I wouldn't really be into analyzing a religious theme either, fwiw.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  20. #100
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Simple question about god-human relations

    Kyriakos,

    It's not about religion, rather believing and experiencing the workings of God in us. Yes, it is like two different languages for one is of the natural and the other of the Supernatural. The natural ones only impersonate the Supernatural to hold in sway their believers whereas the real Supernatural really acts with such power to deliver a change of heart through rebirth to it own. This the natural knows of yet can do nothing of itself to bring such wonders about. That's the difference between Christianity and natural religion. It's why Jesus Christ's actions have never been repeated anywhere in the world outside of Christianity.

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